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  1. #21
    Forum Member FIREMECH1's Avatar
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    @ N2DFire...

    Thanks for the information, it helped me out alot, as I had a couple questions concerning the low water psi.

    But, help me out here.

    Lets say you have 4 Engines, and 4 hydraunts, on the same water main, and E1 is on the first one, in direction of flow, and then E2, on the second, and so on. E1 is at max pumping, and so is E2, on the second, at max pumping. Will or can E3 & 4, have a loss of water available to them? In both volume and pressure? Seems to me that it is possible.


  2. #22
    Forum Member 1OLDTIMER's Avatar
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    HAPPY belated BIRTHDAY FIREMECH1

    Mine is TODAY...but since I am older than the dirt under the pyramids in Egypt...it [really] is a moot point anymore..............
    "we will bankrupt ourselves in the vain attempt at absolute security"
    Pres. / General Dwight D. Eisenhower

  3. #23
    MembersZone Subscriber N2DFire's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FIREMECH1 View Post
    @ N2DFire...

    Thanks for the information, it helped me out alot, as I had a couple questions concerning the low water psi.

    But, help me out here.

    Lets say you have 4 Engines, and 4 hydraunts, on the same water main, and E1 is on the first one, in direction of flow, and then E2, on the second, and so on. E1 is at max pumping, and so is E2, on the second, at max pumping. Will or can E3 & 4, have a loss of water available to them? In both volume and pressure? Seems to me that it is possible.
    In general it all depends on the capacity of the water system (Size of mains, available water pressure / volume, etc.) however in general you are 100% correct - if all engines are pumping from the same main - they end up robbing water from each other.

    This is where knowing your water system is extremely valuable.
    Larger water systems have multiple distribution circuits so it may be possible to hit a hydrant a little farther away that is on a different water main.

    Also if you are in a large complex that has its own private supply systems (industrial complexes often do) then you should know which hydrants are on the municipal system as well as which are on the private system for the same reasons (as well as knowing the capacity of the private system).
    Take Care - Stay Safe - God Bless
    Stephen
    FF/Paramedic
    Instructor

  4. #24
    Forum Member FIREMECH1's Avatar
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    LMAO @ 1Oldtimer. Thanks.

    @ N2DFire.. Thanks for the info, I appreciate it.

  5. #25
    MembersZone Subscriber N2DFire's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FIREMECH1 View Post
    @ N2DFire.. Thanks for the info, I appreciate it.
    No problem. You're quite welcome. Just trying to pass on what little I know.

    Believe it or not - the Dept. I run with is pretty rural and has a very minor water system (covers less than 10% of our area I'd say); but for many many years, my Father was the Asst. Public Works Director for the next town over so I learned a lot about water systems from him before I ever became a firefighter. That and having a background in mechanical engineering technology - I took a couple fluid dynamics classes here and there.

    So you see I'm no expert, I just know enough to get in trouble

    If you have hydrants in your area, I'd highly recommend talking to the folks at the water treatment dept. as well as the public works guys that install & repair the systems. They can be extremely knowledgeable folks.
    Take Care - Stay Safe - God Bless
    Stephen
    FF/Paramedic
    Instructor

  6. #26
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    Water supply testing for fire department use is an important step in the prefire planning process for a building and or community. Low water pressure during a fire usually means the FD has exceeded the capacity of the water supply system. If the water supply can only supply 1200 gpm @ 20 psi or even 0 psi then that is it. If you place an engine that can pump 1500 gpm on a water supply that can only provide 1200 gpm then will have low water supply pressure as you have exceed the capacity of the water supply.

    40% of the ISO rating is based on the town/city water supply.

    Knowing how to test and evaluate a water supply is something all fire departments should know how to do. After all it is the the media we use to control and extinguish a fire.

    Here is a good document on how to conduct a fire hydrant water supply test.

    http://www.ci.ontario.ca.us/index.cfm/34762/34691

    Also take a look at NFPA 291, Recommended Practice for Fire Flow Testing and Marking of Hydrants. If you do not have the latest NFPA codes and need to research the codes, here is link below. You can read BUT not print any NFPA code/standard.

    http://www.nfpa.org/aboutthecodes/li...ookie%5Ftest=1

    Click on the code you want (NFPA 291)

    Then go to the bottom of the page and click on "Preview this document".

    Then click I agree

    Then click on the code you choose at the bottom of the page.


    Here is a link for 1.85 graph paper to plot your water supply test and to figure out how much you have at 20 psi or what ever flow pressure you desire.

    http://www.inspector911.com/checklis...ph%20paper.pdf

    Here is a link to a free hydraulic calculator to determine fire flow.

    http://cybermessageboard.fatcow.com/...204&highlight=

    Here is a link for a company that sells all the equipment you will need to do a test, pitot, butt cap and gauges

    http://www.nemfg.com/watertest.html

    If you have any questions let me know.

    If you are in NJ take a look at a 1 day seminar this company does on water supplies for fire protection, Module 1. You conduct a water supply test and calculate the required fire flows.
    http://forums.firehouse.com/showthread.php?t=96886
    Last edited by InsuranceLCRep; 06-15-2008 at 07:48 AM.
    Fire Sprinklers Save Firefightersí Lives Too!

  7. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by InsuranceLCRep View Post
    Water supply testing for fire department use is an important step in the prefire planning process for a building and or community. Low water pressure during a fire usually means the FD has exceeded the capacity of the water supply system. If the water supply can only supply 1200 gpm @ 20 psi or even 0 psi then that is it. If you place an engine that can pump 1500 gpm on a water supply that can only provide 1200 gpm then will have low water supply pressure as you have exceed the capacity of the water supply.

    http://forums.firehouse.com/showthread.php?t=96886
    The rated draft capacity of an engine's pump has nothing to do with its ability to move water from a pressurized water source. A hydrant flowing 1200gpm is only going to give me 1200gpm no matter what size pump I have.

    It is a typical probie mistake to think that a 1250gpm engine can only flow 1250gpm when operating on a pressurized water source. Your flow is restricted by how much water you can put into your pump and how much you can get out. The pump piping has a greater impact on flow rates than the rated pump capacity (which is calculated at a draft.)

    My company has flowed 2000gpm (1000gpm to engine mounted master stream and 1000gpm to an eleveated master stream) through a "1250gpm" pump. We had a good hydrant on a 16" main, hooked up to both 4 1/2" discharges with 5" supply lines, had a static of 100psi. We hooked the ladder to our lower LDH discharge (this pump discharge only feeds the one outlet) and flowed our master stream (this discharge pipe is shared with our second LDH outlet, had we flowed the ladder with this outlet our gpm output would have been lower.) The pump's capacity of 1250gpm had nothing to do with our ability to flow water. (We only lost 10% of our static pressure during the evolution so we have more water to spare.)

    I wonder if our ol' 1950 Maxim 500pgm pump can pull off the same layout...
    Last edited by lexfd5; 06-17-2008 at 01:22 AM. Reason: made mistake

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