Thread: Know your locks

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    Default Know your locks



    FTM-PTB

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    Is that know your locks or know your ROCKS? Look at the size of that diamond.

    Seriously though I bet many firefighters don't even know what type of locks those are or how to defeat them other than beat down the door.

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    What are the four bolts on the top rim lock? Is it for a reinforcement plate on the front of the door?
    ullrichk
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    Quote Originally Posted by ullrichk View Post
    What are the four bolts on the top rim lock? Is it for a reinforcement plate on the front of the door?

    I do believe so.

    FTM-PTB

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    Fred,

    I get the jist of the post, but in situations like that, your only option is brute force. There is no way to be on the other side of that door and "skillfully" work on each of those locks to gain entry.
    RK
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    Maybe start thinking about taking the hinge side..

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    As long as the police lock isnt in place thats a standard NYC door. I would doubt anyone would have trouble with it, unless of course the door started to fall apart then its a mess cause you lose so much energy from the door moving.

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    I know looks can be decieving but from what I can see they used small sheet metal screws on a hollow jamb. I know you cant see this from the other side but a couple of good hits with a sledge or axe and you should be well on your way in
    Buck
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    it looks like splitting and blowing out the back of the jamb would eliminate most of the problems there. baseball swing..

    Quote Originally Posted by jonnyirons2 View Post
    As long as the police lock isnt in place thats a standard NYC door. I would doubt anyone would have trouble with it, unless of course the door started to fall apart then its a mess cause you lose so much energy from the door moving.
    How does the police lock work?

    n/m

    found this

    "Q. Among the many old locks, deadbolts and metal plates encrusted on the front door of my apartment is a metal slot for an old ''police lock.'' It occurs to me that I haven't actually seen one in use for years. Have they become a thing of the past?

    A. ''I still keep them in stock,'' said John Littlejohn, manager of Abbey Locksmiths at East 81st Street and Second Avenue for 30 years. ''But sales have been fading for the past 20 years.''

    Mr. Littlejohn said that police locks were designed to be used with wooden doors, but that with the steel or steel-framed doors now in common use, ''you don't need that kind of lock.'' The locks use a heavy rolled-steel bar; one end is set in a floor socket while the other is locked into a metal box attached to the door. A door thus equipped could withstand all but the most formidable assaults, short of outright demolition.

    The first brace-type police locks were manufactured by the Fox Police Lock Company of New York about 1907, to the designs of Emiel R. Fox, a former night watchman. Gene Skratt, owner of Fox, has said the locks took their name from an old police procedure used to secure damaged doors after a burglary, when a 2-by-4 was set across the gap between the door and a piece of wood nailed into the floor. The locks were sold almost exclusively in and around New York City. Other brands, like Magic Eye and Parker, appeared later, Mr. Littlejohn said."
    Last edited by LeatherHed4Life; 06-08-2008 at 05:11 PM.

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    . . .Fox Police Lock from occupants side
    .
    .
    Attached Images Attached Images  

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    any indicators of this from the outside? for size up ?

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    Usually you can eyeball a lock thats off center from the others more toward the center of the door and above the mortise lock of the door knob. The only trick that really works was taught to us by an old R-3 guy, but its not that commonly accepted, the blade of a venetian blind slipped under the door to knock the bar out. Either way you still need to see if its even in place by taking the door or if your eyes are good enough and the door has enough space by looking under the door and the saddle to see if its in place.

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    Ok first.

    I disagree with any maul/baseball swing method for a few reasons.

    1. It won't work as well as one thinks.
    2. You loose control of the door and quite posibly destroy any integrity it had.
    3. It borders on the amature methods employed by the cops.

    Those jambs won't split (steel doesn't split normally) easily on the back side and they don't give much either.

    Once you have an idea that certain locks are rim locks....taking off the plate and driving the cylinder through (thus the lock off the door) would be a possible method.

    Chain in place would be easy to remove with a swing of an axe and indicate presence of a person inside.

    The Police lock is shown not being in place. (the photo following mine is of a different lock) That is the only one where I've learned giving a shot to the door with a maul or axe is practicable and sometimes the only method to dislodge the bar. Although I'm sure using a thin blind might work to kick it out of the hole in the floor.

    (PS-the family who made them is no longer in the business and still owns the rights to its production so unless they start back into the locksmithing biz or sell the rights to someone else...you won't see any new ones out there.)

    Remember...all, some or none of those locks may be egaged when you find them...if the occupant evacuated in haste the slam lock might be the only one working (if it has oneto begin with). I would start at the top and work my way down if it were me.

    FTM-PTB

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    As stated earlier....this is a very common door in this city. The rim locks should really not give too much trouble. Work from the upper locks down, and take them one or two at a time.

    The biggest problem will be the Police Lock. If it is engaged, the first step I would take is to try to knock the bar out of the floor slot. Pull the knob of the door towards you (this pulls the bar in the floor closer to being out)...now give the bottom of the door a good shot in an attempt to dislodge the bar from the floor. If that didn't work, I would attempt to remove the cylinder and minipulate the lock (through the lock).....if it still didn't work, I would then attempt to drive the lock body off the door by inserting the pike of the Halligan (or officers tool) into the hole and driving it off. If all this fails, it's time to start thinking about knocking out a panel, taking the hinges, or beating the **** out of the door.

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    Quote Originally Posted by FFFRED View Post
    Ok first.

    I disagree with any maul/baseball swing method for a few reasons.

    FTM-PTB
    Absolutely. Steel doors and jambs with stronger locks among other security measures have turned forcible entry from brute force with a maul or a foot into a wooden door into a skill that needs to be learned and practiced.
    Taking a door can make you look like a champ or a chump.

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    Quote Originally Posted by FFFRED View Post
    Ok first.

    I disagree with any maul/baseball swing method for a few reasons.

    1. It won't work as well as one thinks.
    2. You loose control of the door and quite posibly destroy any integrity it had.
    3. It borders on the amature methods employed by the cops.

    Those jambs won't split (steel doesn't split normally) easily on the back side and they don't give much either.

    Once you have an idea that certain locks are rim locks....taking off the plate and driving the cylinder through (thus the lock off the door) would be a possible method.

    Chain in place would be easy to remove with a swing of an axe and indicate presence of a person inside.

    The Police lock is shown not being in place. (the photo following mine is of a different lock) That is the only one where I've learned giving a shot to the door with a maul or axe is practicable and sometimes the only method to dislodge the bar. Although I'm sure using a thin blind might work to kick it out of the hole in the floor.

    (PS-the family who made them is no longer in the business and still owns the rights to its production so unless they start back into the locksmithing biz or sell the rights to someone else...you won't see any new ones out there.)

    Remember...all, some or none of those locks may be egaged when you find them...if the occupant evacuated in haste the slam lock might be the only one working (if it has oneto begin with). I would start at the top and work my way down if it were me.

    FTM-PTB

    Quote Originally Posted by MattyJ View Post
    As stated earlier....this is a very common door in this city. The rim locks should really not give too much trouble. Work from the upper locks down, and take them one or two at a time.

    The biggest problem will be the Police Lock. If it is engaged, the first step I would take is to try to knock the bar out of the floor slot. Pull the knob of the door towards you (this pulls the bar in the floor closer to being out)...now give the bottom of the door a good shot in an attempt to dislodge the bar from the floor. If that didn't work, I would attempt to remove the cylinder and minipulate the lock (through the lock).....if it still didn't work, I would then attempt to drive the lock body off the door by inserting the pike of the Halligan (or officers tool) into the hole and driving it off. If all this fails, it's time to start thinking about knocking out a panel, taking the hinges, or beating the **** out of the door.
    I didnt realize it was a steel jamb pictured. I definately wouldnt try the baseball swing there.

    Thanks for the info!

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    Quote Originally Posted by len1582 View Post
    . . .Fox Police Lock from occupants side
    .
    .

    Len,

    This photo is actually of the "Fox-Lock" which differs from the traditional "Police-Lock"

    In the first picture of this thread, you can see just one half of the "Police-Lock". You can see the part where the metal rod attaches to the door. What isn't pictured is the actual metal rod that extends downward from about the middle of the door at an almost 45 degree angle and sets in place in a "socket" on the floor itself.

    This lock, when engaged, can be difficult to force, and it is recommended that this type of lock be disengaged by striking the door to try to knock the rod out of its position in the floor. Not an easy task.

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    Quote Originally Posted by jakesdad View Post
    Len,

    This photo is actually of the "Fox-Lock" which differs from the traditional "Police-Lock"...
    OK... I checked Google Images and that is what came up.
    Attached Images Attached Images  
    Last edited by len1582; 06-10-2008 at 02:05 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by len1582 View Post
    OK... I checked Google Images and that is what came up.

    No problem. I tried to find a photo of the actual "Police-Lock" but didn't have any luck. Just wanted to clear it up for anyone that might of been confused.

    Do you guys run into those where you work?

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    Don't see them as often as we used to. Mostly on older commercial buildings now.

    I understand. Sometimes it like getting mapquest directions..

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    Quote Originally Posted by len1582 View Post
    Don't see them as often as we used to. Mostly on older commercial buildings now.

    I understand. Sometimes it like getting mapquest directions..


    Yeah that picture is of the "Fox-Lock"

    The "Multi-Lock" is similar, but it has two additional bars (one going up into the top of the jamb, and one going down into the floor).

    The "Police-Lock" is the one with the rod that extends away from the door and into the floor a few feet from the door itself.

    I wil try to find a picture of one engaged if I can.

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    another hint that you may have a police lock is the location and alignment of the cylinder. The cylinder is usually about mid abdomen height and is slightly offset towards the hinge side ( I'm 6'3" so adjust accordingly). This is just what the guys in my area have found. Others may have other info. As far as forcing it goes I feel the best way is to pull the cylinder with the point of the halligan and then place the point of the halligan thought the hole and with a good hit from a maul blow the bar right off the door. Have done it several times and always has worked.

    PS a way to remember the difference between the two think of a baton that a police officer carries and you will never mix them up again

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    Easy stuff, Uli-Knot charge, 4-5" 50GR/Ft Detonation Cord with a 1"x5" Buffer will drop that door no problem.....however it is a violent explosion....but not as bad...or as fun as using the a SMAW rocket....

    These days, that's how I would take that door.
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    Quote Originally Posted by VinnieB View Post
    Easy stuff, Uli-Knot charge, 4-5" 50GR/Ft Detonation Cord with a 1"x5" Buffer will drop that door no problem.....however it is a violent explosion....but not as bad...or as fun as using the a SMAW rocket....

    These days, that's how I would take that door.
    .
    .
    Does that qualify you for an extra 12% ..

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    No....But I am going to call my union rep.....
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