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  1. #1
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    Question How to document replacement of old apparatus

    What is the best way to document for grant files that the old, outdated, unsafe vehicle that was replaced by a new vehicle awarded in an AFG grant was removed from service, i.e., sold, returned to Forestry Dept., junked behind building, etc....
    (Have someone sign off on it, document in minutes?)
    Thanks for any ideas or pointing me in the right direction....


  2. #2
    Forum Member SLY4420's Avatar
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    For the most part, you got it. Much like everything in this program, it's all about documentation.

    Depending on how you are going to be removing the vehicle from service may depend on how you want to document it. If it will be junked for good, have the junkyard sign off acknowledging what's going on; if you are selling it, ensure the purchaser signs of in the agreement that the vehicle is unsafe for fire department use and shall not be used by another FD, etc.

    If you choose to push it off a cliff, video tape and put it on YouTube.

    Basically, make sure you have documentation for your site audit.

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    MembersZone Subscriber WJVaughn's Avatar
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    If you choose to push it off a cliff, video tape and put it on YouTube.

    Be sure and post here so we can all go watch it. Maybe mythbusters could do something fun with it.

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    Seeing as how our 1199a just got updated for a replacement brush truck this will be an issue for us! I'm sure I'll ask our grant coord for guidance, but we'd like to hold on to the old (it's a '75 F250) truck to plow the parking lot and stuff like that. Has anyone had any experience that way? We'd much rather not start beating up the new truck by hanging a plow on the front!

  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by Engine683 View Post
    Seeing as how our 1199a just got updated for a replacement brush truck this will be an issue for us! I'm sure I'll ask our grant coord for guidance, but we'd like to hold on to the old (it's a '75 F250) truck to plow the parking lot and stuff like that. Has anyone had any experience that way? We'd much rather not start beating up the new truck by hanging a plow on the front!
    I am not tyring to be sarcastic or anything here but, you stated in your application that the truck was unsafe and needed to be taken out of service to your fire department, as it was a danger to operate by your firefighters and you agreed that if you accepted an award that you would take it out of service. Obviously AFG agreed with you that it was a danger and that you needed to get rid of it and they agreed to fund you for the new truck to replace this supposedly unsafe vehicle. So why would you want to endanger the "rare and highly coveted" award, and or endanger your firefighters by continuing to operate this unsafe vehicle, by trying to "split-hairs" here for the sake of a snow-plow? Sell the truck to a farmer and use the money to get a used UTV or ATV to do the same thing for you. Go find a few thousand dollars, have a fund raiser or apply to another grant program to buy a UTV or ATV and accomplish the same thing. Heck, give it to somebody with an agreement that they have to come and plow you out if you give it to them for the next two or three years
    Last edited by ktb9780; 09-21-2008 at 06:38 PM.
    Kurt Bradley
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    Well truthfully, the thrust of our narrative was how the existing vehicle was extremely overloaded and unreliable, so a pickup truck expected to perform in emergency service is one thing, and taking 2,200 lbs out of the bed and not really caring if it starts or not is another. But, this is why we ask the questions!

    It would appear then that the definition of "out of service", at least for our purposes, would be to get rid of the vehicle as well as making sure whoever buys it doesn't use it for emergency service. It certainly wasn't my intention to try and split hairs, I was just looking for opinions on whether "out of service" means "out of emergency service" or whether it means "no longer owned by the fire department".

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    MembersZone Subscriber ktb9780's Avatar
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    Likewise it was not my intent to put a guilt trip or anything there. I was just trying to give a clear explanation of what AFG officials have told me in the past, when I have also posed that question.Just thought you would like to know what their usual take has been on that question and share some possible solutions to your dilemma.
    Kurt Bradley
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  8. #8
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    The intent behind the rule was because people would claim the truck is a death trap and then run it 2nd or 3rd out. Also the statement is intended for emergency service use, so if it has no lights, no siren, it's not an emergency vehicle just because the dept owns it so using it to plow driveways isn't IMHO what the ruling was meant to prevent. You still want to have approval in writing to do something like that so after the award write the note to DHS and ask if you can do that.

    If not, sell it to a member for $1 as long as they plow the driveway.

  9. #9
    MembersZone Subscriber ktb9780's Avatar
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    My offcial source at AFG gave me the following response to that question this morning and which it appears both bc79er and myself were on the right track about with our advice:

    "We would allow a grantee to retain a pickup for plowing purposes if they took the lights off the vehicle, took the radio out of the vehicle, and painted the vehicle some other non-departmental color. If they are only using it for plowing, it wouldn’t have to be on their insurance policy. They’d have to take a picture of the non-commissioned vehicle so that we’re assured that it is out of service."
    Kurt Bradley
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    "Never Trade Skill for Luck"

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    Default well that is a thread ender

    Hmm that answers the question

  11. #11
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    Smile

    Ironically, I've been of the opinion that we need to get rid of the truck, but was being questioned by a couple members of my department as to what permitted uses might be. So now I can go back to them and tell them that we're far better off just getting rid of the thing. It's actually approaching antique (or at least classic, it's 33 years old) status so there may be a little market for some of the body panels that aren't to rusted. Kurt- thanks for going the extra mile and checking with AFG- I know you guys have heard it a thousand times before, but the help and discussions you and Brian and everyone else have been involved in have made all of us better grant writers and helped our communities provide better fire protection. I'm still having heart palpitations whenever I look at my 1199a page and see that FV there! So thanks so much for all your work!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Engine683 View Post
    Ironically, I've been of the opinion that we need to get rid of the truck, but was being questioned by a couple members of my department as to what permitted uses might be. So now I can go back to them and tell them that we're far better off just getting rid of the thing. It's actually approaching antique (or at least classic, it's 33 years old) status so there may be a little market for some of the body panels that aren't to rusted. Kurt- thanks for going the extra mile and checking with AFG- I know you guys have heard it a thousand times before, but the help and discussions you and Brian and everyone else have been involved in have made all of us better grant writers and helped our communities provide better fire protection. I'm still having heart palpitations whenever I look at my 1199a page and see that FV there! So thanks so much for all your work!
    If you're having palpitations now.....better have a defib on hand when the official award comes.

  13. #13
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    Default What if????

    We had a 1199A popup lst week to replace our 33 year ladder truck. In your opinion can we donate this toour county fire academy. They would use it to transport all of the ground ladders from the 4 story training tower to the the burn bulding. (over 300 yard apart). The unit would remain at the acdemy,and be only driven by instructors. No students would ride the apparatus, and it would no be used for the aerial or have students riding on it.

    Naurally we would get the falswer in writing fro FEMA. We are hoping for the questions soon, and would like to know how o respond to that final question.

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    You can pose the question in the reply also. I think that would work, I believe it's been done before like that.

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    I would agree with Brian here; just get your proposed idea put down in writing and then submit it with your responses to 10 questions. Be sure to verify with a follow up email that you have permission to do so and I would still make sure that you have a signed MOU with the academy indicating clearly that it cannot be used for emergency repsonse or carry passengers period. Keep that signed MOU with your grant file and be sure to remove any graphics from your vehicle beofre donating.
    Kurt Bradley
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