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Thread: paging problems

  1. #21
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    See that's where we disagree. If for example you go through the hoops and register with Verizon for the "Enterprise Gateway" or pay AT&T for the "Enterprise Messaging Service" or USA Mobility for a TNPP connection you can get around the gateway / network congestion issues and have a reliable delivery system. Although the RF Highway with all these carriers is just so big so rush hour can be a B.......

    An I still think where budgets allow ISO is Right... Build and maintain it yourself, but use it in conjunction with Commercial offerings.

    ---------------

    Quote Originally Posted by nmfire View Post
    Actually, no it isn't. The bottleneck and slowdowns are almost always the carrier and nothing else. I watch it happen daily. The messages leave the building lickity split. The bottleneck and delays are 100% carrier. And all the carriers have the same problems. There is NOTHING you or anyone else third party can do to fix it.


  2. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by firebuff880 View Post
    No offense taken. Some departments cann't afford anything else, so we try and improve the success rate and delivery throughput with our product.
    Nope. I can't go for that. A substandard alerting method is still a substandard alerting method.

    You can dress up a pig - but its still a pig.

    Do you have a good product? I think you do. It works great, I have seen it in action.

    Is it a good product for the fire service in its initial paging? Nope. Is it your products fault? Nope.

    Poor departments? Look at your customer list. I don't see a lot of poor there. Although my department did not invent the words "poor department" we are the picture next to the dictionary listing. A poor department needs just as good an alerting method as anyone else.

    My gripe with your company, with Nextel, etc, is marketing. Don't market this stuff as a primary method of alerting. Market it for what it is great at - a secondary method of alerting.

  3. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by firebuff880 View Post
    See that's where we disagree. If for example you go through the hoops and register with Verizon for the "Enterprise Gateway" or pay AT&T for the "Enterprise Messaging Service" or USA Mobility for a TNPP connection you can get around the gateway / network congestion issues and have a reliable delivery system. Although the RF Highway with all these carriers is just so big so rush hour can be a B.......

    An I still think where budgets allow ISO is Right... Build and maintain it yourself, but use it in conjunction with Commercial offerings.

    ---------------
    I got to agree with NMFire. I have seen it way too many times.

    Many of the regional paging companies have an inherent delay built into their
    systems - ENGINEERED into their systems. Its called batching. I am almost positive USA Mobility does the same thing, I can check.

    Yeah, I am a regional paging carrier, at least until the last hospital drops off the service. Then someone needs to turn out the lights on their way out.

    Cell carriers can be even worse with their SMS.

  4. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by firebuff880 View Post
    See that's where we disagree. If for example you go through the hoops and register with Verizon for the "Enterprise Gateway" or pay AT&T for the "Enterprise Messaging Service" or USA Mobility for a TNPP connection you can get around the gateway / network congestion issues and have a reliable delivery system. Although the RF Highway with all these carriers is just so big so rush hour can be a B.......
    Some, not all, of the carriers have an SNPP gateway. Sprint and nextel have one that is available to anyone for free and it hauls ***. It is what I use for my phone and all our department issued sprint/nextels. The messages are sent and received in a matter of seconds most of the time. However with most other carriers, IF they have SNPP gateway, it is an additional monthly subscription cost PER PHONE. That means everyone in your department has to pay another $10/mo or so to have that enterprise service added to their plan. Not gonna happen and even if people did want to pay for it, it still doesn't apply to all the carriers.

    Bottom line is this. You can get decently reliable text messaging if SNPP service is available. It may or may not cost a lotmore. But it is't going to cover everyone no matter what you do. And, what is and always will be the nail in the caufin, it is a commercial service that has no priority or gaurantee for emergency services communications. If it breaks, they'll get to it when they get to it. If the message doesn't go through for whatever random reason, oh well. And you're relying on cell phone coverage on top of all of that. Whether you have an SNPP gateway or not, it is still absolutely wrong to use this for primary alerting.


    Quote Originally Posted by LVFD301 View Post
    My gripe with your company, with Nextel, etc, is marketing. Don't market this stuff as a primary method of alerting. Market it for what it is great at - a secondary method of alerting.
    Thats is what bothers met the most. 90% of the people reading the marketing do not know any better. If everyone was you or me, that crap wouldn't fly.
    Even the burger-flippers at McDonald's probably have some McWackers.

  5. #25
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    Actually, very few of the Companies have SNPP Gateways beyond the Commercial Paging Carriers, I prefer a Gateway function called TNPP if it fails, then fall back to SNPP, and then TAP Dial up Modems worse case.. For the Cellular customers you mostly have SMTP based e-mail (We wrote our own engine so we talk to the Registered Gateway directly, and can fall back to TAP if the Gateway is non-responsive.) AT&T has a WCTP gateway, but yes they charge per receiving unit that you talk to via the Gateway. Verizon has a registered SMTP gateway excreta...

    An I don't think I have any "get the Unit out the Door" exclusively by means of our product customers. Although I do have live CAD feeds that are 2nd or 3rd paths for active 1st line dispatch. Station Tone / Radio, RIP & Run, and Alpha Paging via the Cellular Carrier(s).

    But I think that an effective Alpha Paging system (Commercial and/or Private) is still key to today's incident management structure. An can solve a lot of information flow issues in a timely manner.

    I would be happy to provide a live time limited demo to any one in this thread that thinks our technology would help prove their case with management pro or con.

    -------------------------

    Quote Originally Posted by nmfire View Post

    Bottom line is this. You can get decently reliable text messaging if SNPP service is available. It may or may not cost a lotmore. But it is't going to cover everyone no matter what you do. And, what is and always will be the nail in the caufin, it is a commercial service that has no priority or gaurantee for emergency services communications. If it breaks, they'll get to it when they get to it. If the message doesn't go through for whatever random reason, oh well. And you're relying on cell phone coverage on top of all of that. Whether you have an SNPP gateway or not, it is still absolutely wrong to use this for primary alerting.

  6. #26
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    Yes you can fall back to TAP. By next Tuesday, the message will be delivered. My experience is that all of the carrier's e-mail systems suck. They make it pretty useless. I can go on with a lot of my experiences with this but it is way more than needs to be in this thread.

    I think we can all agree that is is not an acceptable means of primary notification regardless of what improvements and redundancies you have with it. The carriers never built or intended it to be used for that and therefore we shouldn't be trying to use it for that.

    As a secondary means of notification, it is great. I love having the incident location and cross-streets at my finger tips. As an officer/FF/EMT, while en-route and i forget where I'm going again, I have it right there. As a dispatcher, I can send information that would be difficult to speak and copy on the radio. Example, GPS data for a S&R or where a hidden key is located.

    Bottom line (again), it is an excellent TOOL when it works.
    Even the burger-flippers at McDonald's probably have some McWackers.

  7. #27
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    I Agree ....

    Quote Originally Posted by nmfire View Post
    Bottom line (again), it is an excellent TOOL when it works.

  8. #28
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    I just was thinking about the Obama campaign fiasco with SMS and emails messaging. But yes, when it works it is great. Even our little department is using it.

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    Thumbs up

    **UPDATE**

    got the go ahead last night, we are putting in a voice pager system. we have the tower already lined up. dispatch said said they would install everything they need on their end. we have to purchase/install/maintain everything that is outside of the dispatch center.

    could anyone direct me to the best places for voice paging systems? also some info, including how high needs to be on tower, range, etc.

    thanks in advance

  10. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by asstchief700 View Post

    could anyone direct me to the best places for voice paging systems? also some info, including how high needs to be on tower, range, etc.
    Where are you located? I just ordered our radio-pagers today (to replace the alphas), but I'm in Oklahoma.
    Bryan Beall
    Silver City, Oklahoma USA

  11. #31
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    I don't know why anybody would use a system they don't have complete control over and backup. Remember when

  12. #32
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    I don't know why anybody would use a system they don't have complete control over and backup. Remember when the power goes out or major emergency, public systems crash, (ie: New Orlens) stay with your own system. I have found working with Motorola pager programing and quality to be great. I still like Kenwood radios better than Motorola.
    Just my thoughts, have a peacefull nights sleep.

  13. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by asstchief700 View Post
    **UPDATE**

    got the go ahead last night, we are putting in a voice pager system. we have the tower already lined up. dispatch said said they would install everything they need on their end. we have to purchase/install/maintain everything that is outside of the dispatch center.

    could anyone direct me to the best places for voice paging systems? also some info, including how high needs to be on tower, range, etc.

    thanks in advance
    I just sent you a PM. How high up depends on what coverage you need, obstacles, power, etc. I can tell you, that for the most part, the higher the better, but the higher you go, the cost increases. More hardline for the antenna, if you go too high you need to go to a larger hardline, etc.

    You really need to get with someone that can help you. If you don't getmy PM let me know

  14. #34
    Forum Member nmfire's Avatar
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    - What frequency or at least what band?
    - What kind of access do you have with this tower? Usually the owner tells you where you can go and how high.
    - Can you tell us where you are and where this tower is so i can look at the terrain on a topo map?
    Even the burger-flippers at McDonald's probably have some McWackers.

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    another update..

    turns out that the county is putting in a voice paging system county wide. all we have to purchase are our pagers. the county chose to go with apollo brand pagers (the apollo vp200). so now all i really need is opinions on the apollos and best place to purchase them from.

    i appreciate all the help, and sorry it was for nothing, but the county has decided that everyone throughout the county should be voice, so they are taking the burden of putting everything in, like i said except for the pagers.

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    Post Apollo

    Quote Originally Posted by asstchief700 View Post
    another update..

    turns out that the county is putting in a voice paging system county wide. all we have to purchase are our pagers. the county chose to go with apollo brand pagers (the apollo vp200). so now all i really need is opinions on the apollos and best place to purchase them from.

    i appreciate all the help, and sorry it was for nothing, but the county has decided that everyone throughout the county should be voice, so they are taking the burden of putting everything in, like i said except for the pagers.

    I would stay far away from Apollo. They have a lot of problems. There is also a rumor going around that Motorola is suing them for copyright infringements.I would be scared there will not be any support in the future. We have had a lot of luck with Swissphone. We were tired of sending in are Motorola Minitors for repairs.

  17. #37
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    Do me a favor and contact Zetron at 1-425-820-6363. They will direct you to a dealer in your area. You could use either a Model 640 or 2000 series paging terminal.

    If you need any help with this, You can PM me. I've put in about 40 of the Model 640's very familiar with them and the 2000 series.

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