Paid AND Volunteering for the same department ??

[BC0163]

As the demand from volunteers increases it has become necessary for some departments to add paid positions. Many times this is done by offering paid shifts during the day when it is most difficult to provide an adequate response for emergencies, while leaving the nights and weekends to be covered by volunteers.

According to the Fair Labor Standards Act a person may not be paid and volunteer for the same organization unless the following 4 criteria are met: (this applies to municipal and non-profit / not-for-profit organizations)

1- The individual was not converted unilaterally by the
employer to volunteer status in order to avoid the
minimum wage provisions or overtime protection of the
FLSA;
2- The individual is serving as a volunteer for
civic, charitable, or humanitarian reasons without
promise, expectation, or receipt of compensation
(although expenses, reasonable benefits or a nominal
fee may be provided);
3- The individual offers his or
her services freely and without coercion;
4- The individual is not otherwise employed by the same
public agency to provide the same services for which
they volunteer.

The fourth rule poses the following question; Can a firefighter work an occasional day shift which they are required to be in at station and paid an hourly wage also volunteer to do the same job when responding from home?

My previous department settled this problem by stating members must choose to be 100% volunteer or paid, not both. If you choose to be paid the individuals were paid an hourly wage while working day shifts or training, and were compensated using a Paid Per Call wage when responding from home.

I think this issues warrants discussion and raises another question: can a department be sued for back pay by allowing someone to Volunteer and be paid to do the same job?

[FyredUp]

As the demand from volunteers increases it has become necessary for some departments to add paid positions. Many times this is done by offering paid shifts during the day when it is most difficult to provide an adequate response for emergencies, while leaving the nights and weekends to be covered by volunteers.

According to the Fair Labor Standards Act a person may not be paid and volunteer for the same organization unless the following 4 criteria are met: (this applies to municipal and non-profit / not-for-profit organizations)

1- The individual was not converted unilaterally by the
employer to volunteer status in order to avoid the
minimum wage provisions or overtime protection of the
FLSA;
2- The individual is serving as a volunteer for
civic, charitable, or humanitarian reasons without
promise, expectation, or receipt of compensation
(although expenses, reasonable benefits or a nominal
fee may be provided);
3- The individual offers his or
her services freely and without coercion;
4- The individual is not otherwise employed by the same
public agency to provide the same services for which
they volunteer.

The fourth rule poses the following question; Can a firefighter work an occasional day shift which they are required to be in at station and paid an hourly wage also volunteer to do the same job when responding from home?

My previous department settled this problem by stating members must choose to be 100% volunteer or paid, not both. If you choose to be paid the individuals were paid an hourly wage while working day shifts or training, and were compensated using a Paid Per Call wage when responding from home.

I think this issues warrants discussion and raises another question: can a department be sued for back pay by allowing someone to Volunteer and be paid to do the same job?

If a career member of a FD volunteers back to that same department he must be completely out of his mind. Talk about cutting your own throat. Let's see, contract talks come up, let's see here Mr Union President it says here in our facts and figures that your career staff volunteered back so many hours a week...if they can do this why do they need a raise or increase in benefits when they will work shifts for free? Or if your members will work for free why do we need to add more staff to cover the increased call load?

Not the smartest of moves really...you want to volly find another FD elsewhere to volly to.

[firenresq77]

I believe as long as they are not working Full-Time, then they are OK.........

[DeputyChiefGonzo]

If a career member of a FD volunteers back to that same department he must be completely out of his mind. Talk about cutting your own throat. Let's see, contract talks come up, let's see here Mr Union President it says here in our facts and figures that your career staff volunteered back so many hours a week...if they can do this why do they need a raise or increase in benefits when they will work shifts for free? Or if your members will work for free why do we need to add more staff to cover the increased call load?

Not the smartest of moves really...you want to volly find another FD elsewhere to volly to.

Bing-freaking-o!

[VollyGuy]

This is a very interesting question. I'm no expert but here is what I think. The first three parts of the provision are pretty clear and don't seem to interfere with the notion of volunteering for the same department where you get paid. The issue, as the original poster pointed it out, is with the fourth requirement.

The individual is not otherwise employed by the same public agency to provide the same services for which they volunteer.

I think the part that can be worked around is the "provide the same services for which they volunteer". They might volunteer to respond from their house to make calls and they get paid to sit at the station waiting for a call and do shift duties. By breaking it up as such they might not be allowed to sit at the station in their free time and wash the trucks on their off days but they can still respond when it's not their paid day.

If a career member of a FD volunteers back to that same department he must be completely out of his mind.

I think it clearly depends on the department and what you signed up for. I'm part of a small city combination department where we only have 5 full time paid members (ABC 24/48) with one floater position that is filled by volunteers for a fixed sum for a 24 hour period. We have some volunteers that live out of town and only do the part time shifts for money. Some out of town volunteers hang out during the day for free when they have nothing better to do, some even spend the night at the station. One of the full time paid guys lives out of town and when his shift is up he leaves and doesn't look back. The other 4 (including our chief) respond on their off days to calls as volunteers when they can/want to. They don't get compensated for these runs. Volunteers don't get any kind of compensation on a per run basis either.

All of the 4 paid guys who respond as volunteers started out as volunteers at the department. They were volunteers who got promoted into paid positions when the city realized that we need paid daytime coverage first and got full 24 hour positions when the city decided that we had missed medical first response calls during nights and weekends when we were relying solely on volunteers. These paid guys have their heart in the department and love to volunteer. Some of these 4 guys would die if they had to miss a big call on their off days because they were not allowed to go due to labor reasons.

We need all the hands we can get on a big call and the off duty volunteers are part of it.

__________________
www.firefighter-blog.com - The stories and rants of a volunteer firefighter

[FFPCogs08]

[QUOTE=FyredUp;970551]If a career member of a FD volunteers back to that same department he must be completely out of his mind. Talk about cutting your own throat. Let's see, contract talks come up, let's see here Mr Union President it says here in our facts and figures that your career staff volunteered back so many hours a week...if they can do this why do they need a raise or increase in benefits when they will work shifts for free? Or if your members will work for free why do we need to add more staff to cover the increased call load?

QUOTE]


Well why do they?


Anyone who would agree to a contract without the normal cost of living increases factored in is a FOOL! Cost of living increases are a part of ANY contract I've ever seen or most definitely agreed to. (Laborers and Carpenter's Union Local 405). That's right I'm a union man too...except NO ONE tells me or my colleagues what to do on our off time.

If a paid member wants to volunteer his/her time, whether or not he/she cuts their own throat is their business. They have to live with whatever choice they have made. Maybe they just want to help their neighbors and themselves in another way...by volunteering they help keep their taxes in check.


Cogs

[The nots so new FNG]

I can see only a VERY few times this would be appropriate.

In our case, we have a single paid driver M-F 7AM-5PM. That it. He also volunteers other hours. If other departments only have 'paid' coverage part of the time, then it might be feasible or workable for the paid guys to volunteer during the 'off' hours. Even then, you wouldn't want them to come if a 'paid shift' was on duty.

If you have full shifts of paid personel 24x7, I can't see anything but trouble and potential abuses.

[firenresq77]

Maybe I'm confused but the way I read the post is that they are looking at someone just working part-time....... Not a full-time position....

[DeputyChiefGonzo]

If a paid member wants to volunteer his/her time, whether or not he/she cuts their own throat is their business. They have to live with whatever choice they have made. Maybe they just want to help their neighbors and themselves in another way...by volunteering they help keep their taxes in check.

You don't see cops, sanitation workers, parks workers, snowplow drivers and teachers volunteering to work for free to keep their "taxes" down. Most firefighters that are forced to work for free in their FD's that work in right to work states that do not recognize the Union.; and they are threatened with termination if they don't "give back".

[FyredUp]

If a paid member wants to volunteer his/her time, whether or not he/she cuts their own throat is their business. They have to live with whatever choice they have made. Maybe they just want to help their neighbors and themselves in another way...by volunteering they help keep their taxes in check.


Cogs

See here is where frankly yoiu haven't got one single damn idea of what you are talking about. IF a Union member decides to take an action, such as volunteering to work for free, it doesn't only affect him, it affects the other Union members and possibly affects those who may have been hired either part-time or full-time to fill those shifts. That member doesn't work in a vacuum. His actions have an effect either ripple or tidal wave towards everyone who works there or may poitentially be hired to work there.

Let me give you an example in your line of work. You are building a house, not a charity case, but a house for a paying customer. You have been hired to work the job and are being paid to work 40 hours a week. After a couple of weeks the boss comes to you and says well I am either going to have to pay you overtime, hire more people OR you can work the next 5 Saturdays for free to get this house done on time. Tell me you would work for free...please say something that utterly ridiculous. Your Union would crucify you and you damn well know it. So why would you say something so blatantly idiotic as saying that it is perfectly okay for a paid firefighter to cut his and his Brothers and Sisters in the Union's throat by working for free. Not to better himself, not to serve the community, but entirely to get the quality of response that the city demands for FREE from a paid employee.

I have to tell you your complete inexperience in this arena is showing through here. I hate to sound like a condescending ***** but you really either need to educate yourself on this matter or stop making comments that make you look foolish and frankly ignorant.

[FFPCogs08]

Ignorant ...hmmmm well I'm not quite as ignorant as you think.
As a union member for 15+ years I'm very familiar with ALL the aspects of union membership. I'm also aware of the potential problems that can arise stemming from the choices made by individual union members.
But what a person does in their off time is still THEIR business. If they decide to volunteer in any form knowing full well what the impact of that choice will be that is still their choice. Whether or not it is right or wrong is a matter of opinion unless otherwise stipulated in the union's by-laws.
And yes I have and do work for free on occasion with the blessing of my union brothers, as do many others in my local. We have decided that it is not in our own best interest to suck the well dry. For us it makes much more sense to put some water back in that well occasionally to ensure that there is something there for everyone.
One of the strongest arguments against unions is that they always want more. More people, more money, more benefits...well at some point it comes to a head and someone has to lose out. For us by giving a little back our requests meet a much warmer response. But that's just my local.

Now forcing someone to volunteer is quite another matter to me personally, and I would never work under such conditions. But hey if someone takes the job knowing full well that that is what is expected of them... well that's their problem. I'm sure no one put a gun to their head and forced them to take the job. They shouldn't be crying about it...they should take responsibility for their choice and organize their colleagues to fight for their due...no town is going to fire the WHOLE fire dept. You don't need a union to fight for what's right...although it sure does help up here.

Regarding your point about other civil service employees (other than teachers)...no I don't see them volunteering...but if that option were available it should be their choice to do so if they wished.




Cogs

[VollyGuy]

You don't see cops, sanitation workers, parks workers, snowplow drivers and teachers volunteering to work for free to keep their "taxes" down. Most firefighters that are forced to work for free in their FD's that work in right to work states that do not recognize the Union.; and they are threatened with termination if they don't "give back".

Actually our city has cops that volunteer their time. They do to keep their commission in effect. We have cops that are paid and put in volunteer hours and we have cops that work a different job and volunteer when needed.

I know plenty of teachers that tutor kids pro bono and put in time after hours.

The other professions might not do it so much but I've never heard of a volunteer sanitation department either.

The paid guys in our department volunteer because they want to, not because they have to.

As for unions, that's a whole different can of worms that you probably don't even want to hear my opinion on (GM anyone?). Let's just say I'm a free market kind of guy...
__________________
www.firefighter-blog.com - The stories and rants of a volunteer firefighter

[FyredUp]

I am sure you and your fellow Union members have volunteered to do charity work. But I guarantee you that you have NOT gone to a job site when Union employees are being paid and worked for free along side them. But you know what? You very well may have worked for free at a Union job site...if your Union let you get away with that then they are frankly pitiful as a Union.

It is extremely hard to bargain for pay and benefits when you have the very employees that are asking for raises and increases in benefits working for FREE at their place of employment. Of course your off time is your own but your conscience has to be your guide and frankly screwing your Brothers and Sisters is not how I choose to be thought of at my place of work.

[FFPCogs08]

Fyredup,
Well as pitiful as we may be in your eyes..we do ok. We've NEVER in my time been denied any requests for raises, or benefits. I'm currently making $32.50 per hour with full medical, dental and vision..and the starting straight rate is just under 26.00 per hour plus benefits. Time and a half over 40 double time for holidays, So we have NO complaints. Actually we must be doing something right..including working for free on occasion alongside our paid brothers. Maybe ignorance truly is bliss.


Cogs

[JayDudley]

As one who has sit on both sides of the bargining table OUR Firefighters come in on their days off on runs....I do not see the problem. Maybe there is TOO much being made of this. If you want to come in....it's your choice. Nobody is twisting your arm. From a Union standpoint....Their paid for their work and paid for their Volunteer work also.

Respectfully,
Jay Dudley, Fire Commissioner

[FyredUp]

Cogs...

Here is where you and I part ways on your thought process and your organization. If you advocate career firefighters volunteering back to where they draw a paycheck we are diametrically opposed and since you refuse to see how wrong that is and I refuse to believe that being a scab is a good idea.

Frankly, I see your organization as a subversive attempt to drive a larger wedge between career and volunteer firefighters. As such it is doomed to failure.

Your mind is closed so further discussion is pointless.

[BULL321]

I can kind of understand what FyredUp, CaptainGonzo are saying, but the situation in my county is as follows. We (my dept. and the seven other depts. in my county, all which are vollie) are looking to hire 1 to 2 paid guys for each station. (County is filping the bill) Mon thur Fri. 800 hrs to 1700 hrs. I know that it is not much but it is a start. Most, if not all the jobs will be filled from within each dept. by certified FFs that already live in the district. Now when the jobs come on line and the guys start to work are they supose to stay at home when the pager goes off in the middle of the night, all becuse thier shift is over? Let their freinds and family go out without their help? Hell miss out on a fire? Just because:

"It is extremely hard to bargain for pay and benefits when you have the very employees that are asking for raises and increases in benefits working for FREE at their place of employment. Of course your off time is your own but your conscience has to be your guide and frankly screwing your Brothers and Sisters is not how I choose to be thought of at my place of work." FyredUp.

Now if you are talking about working for free at a fully staffed and paid dept. I can understand what you are saying but in a vollie dept. in a State that does not allow unions for governemnt emplyees it is a moot point.

Now since I don't live in a right to work State. (NC rates 49th in the Union, just in front of SC, for employees having the least amount of workers rights) There is no Unions for LEO of FF in NC. So the whole Union, non-union argument does not add up tp a hill of beans.

Stay Safe

Bull

[FyredUp]

Bull...

We have a combo FD in the county I live in. The career crews work 24 hour shifts. If they are off duty and come in for a fire they get paid for their time on the call.

My feeling is if you expect a career firefighter to come to calls when they are off duty they should be paid for that time at their normal pay rate.

The fact that the Union issue doesn't add up to a hill of beans for you speaks volumes. Since you have not been exposed to Union protection and bargaining it may be impossible for you to understand what that even means in this context.

[BULL321]

FyredUp

Brother, I know more than you think I do. Now mind you, I love my job and I would not quit if my life depinded on it. Here the facts, I work as a full time deputy sheriff. In NC, if you work for any of the 100 Sheriff offices across the state, you work at the pleasure of the Sheriff. If and when the Sheriff decides that your services are no longer required, you get to seek happiness else where. No questions asked. No reason has to be given. Pack your stuff and get out.
OT means "own time". When we get called out after working a shift or you work over we recieve comp time. So that being said, I can see the positive side of the Union. The fact remains that I live and work in a State that will not allow Unions for government employees. It is what it is.

Stay Safe
Bull

[FFPCogs08]

Fyred
I don't advocate anything, other than freedom of choice. I never said any union members must or should volunteer for anything. What I did say is that it should be THEIR choice to do so. Not yours, not mine...not anyone elses. As for being an ignorant scab..well you are entitled to your opinion, but no one I know or work with has any such problem with me, so your opinion of me don't mean sh*t.

I too am done travelling down this road.


Cogs