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Thread: Nozzle Reaction

  1. #21
    Forum Member footrat's Avatar
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    Elkhart came out and gave a hose/nozzle class for every one of our firefighters with new low-pressure fogs and smoothbores. We used to just have a pair of crosslays with SM30's on each. We now have new Key Combat 1 3/4" crosslays, one with the LP fog, the other with the smoothbore. Our skid loads still have our old Key hose with SM30's, but the skids don't get pulled that often. Between the Key Combat hose, which has EXTREMELY low friction loss, and the new nozzles, it's very easy to fight fire with the 1 3/4". I'm not sure if it was Key or not, but someone also came out and set up a friction loss chart for EVERY SINGLE pumping apparatus, individually (they all had to be tested), using the new hose. The Key Combat hose is very flexible, and nearly impossible to kink. It doubles back on itself with no effort, and could really make a difference in some interior attacks, just based on ease of maneuverability. Getting more water through it doesn't hurt, either.

    Now, 2 1/2's are still challenging, and it's really important that the driver not kill you with pressure. We had a fire not too long ago where the driver gave us so much on the 2.5" that even with one of the tips removed, you couldn't get a solid stream at ANY point on the bale. No matter how much you opened it up, you couldn't get more than an air-filled broken stream. And we had three men on the line getting pushed around, without opening it up all the way.


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    Quote Originally Posted by footrat View Post
    Elkhart came out and gave a hose/nozzle class for every one of our firefighters with new low-pressure fogs and smoothbores. We used to just have a pair of crosslays with SM30's on each. We now have new Key Combat 1 3/4" crosslays, one with the LP fog, the other with the smoothbore. Our skid loads still have our old Key hose with SM30's, but the skids don't get pulled that often. Between the Key Combat hose, which has EXTREMELY low friction loss, and the new nozzles, it's very easy to fight fire with the 1 3/4". I'm not sure if it was Key or not, but someone also came out and set up a friction loss chart for EVERY SINGLE pumping apparatus, individually (they all had to be tested), using the new hose. The Key Combat hose is very flexible, and nearly impossible to kink. It doubles back on itself with no effort, and could really make a difference in some interior attacks, just based on ease of maneuverability. Getting more water through it doesn't hurt, either.

    Now, 2 1/2's are still challenging, and it's really important that the driver not kill you with pressure. We had a fire not too long ago where the driver gave us so much on the 2.5" that even with one of the tips removed, you couldn't get a solid stream at ANY point on the bale. No matter how much you opened it up, you couldn't get more than an air-filled broken stream. And we had three men on the line getting pushed around, without opening it up all the way.
    footrat ditto on elkhart!!!!!! they wher the only co to give us the time of day when we wanted to purchase new nozzles in 1993. at that time the sales rep's name was mitch beaver. he brought a van loaded to the max with everythig from sbores to a portable monitor. back then my ff liked the auto 1-3/4 we got two. we have had NO truble with them. on our new pumper in 2006 we again pur elkhart. 2 1-3/4 and 2 2-1/2 75psi combo's. these have worked well for us and two other mut aid dept after using our hose lines in battle have purchased the same for there departments pumpers.. the 50psi just sounded to soft.

  3. #23
    Forum Member bum291's Avatar
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    Akron has something called Zero Torque that would make easier with high pressure, rather than me explaining how it works, just go akronbrass.com click nozzles and then on zero torque to find out.

    Also, over here we use a "recoil reducer" when flowing a large nozzle (from a 3" hose) AWG calls them "Branchpipe holders" http://www.awg-fittings.com/Branchpi...197868_en.html and I do have experience with these and can say that it does help, but still, advancing with a flowing 3" hoseline around is like wrestling with an anaconda.

  4. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by E40FDNYL35 View Post
    Vindicator
    What exactly did you like about them? Please share your experienece with us.

    We had thm for a while to demo and I was impressed with the high rate of flow and how easy they were to handle.

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    We have TFT coming in to do a deo next week to look at some low pressure nozzles. I'm hoping to at least get some ideas to try to get some new nozzles......
    The comments made by me are my opinions only. They DO NOT reflect the opinions of my employer(s). If you have an issue with something I may say, take it up with me, either by posting in the forums, emailing me through my profile, or PMing me through my profile.
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    Try this link http://www.fire-end.com/Elk2.html and scroll to the bottom. We have had the 200gpm 50 psi nozzles for a few years without any problems with the nozzle. The only issue we have is getting the crews to pump them so they they reach their 200gpm capability.
    I personally use the hand method to calculate friction loss and this gives me 60psi per 100' of 1 3/4. Our crosslays are 200' resulting in a total discharge pressure of 170 psi. Most of our members will not pump at this pressure on the sole reason " that pressure is to high" although none of them have actually attempted to use a line at this pressure. Friction loss ( when done correctly ) has no bearing on nozzle reaction.

  8. #28
    Forum Member firenresq77's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by slipperypete View Post
    Try this link http://www.fire-end.com/Elk2.html and scroll to the bottom. We have had the 200gpm 50 psi nozzles for a few years without any problems with the nozzle. The only issue we have is getting the crews to pump them so they they reach their 200gpm capability.
    I personally use the hand method to calculate friction loss and this gives me 60psi per 100' of 1 3/4. Our crosslays are 200' resulting in a total discharge pressure of 170 psi. Most of our members will not pump at this pressure on the sole reason " that pressure is to high" although none of them have actually attempted to use a line at this pressure. Friction loss ( when done correctly ) has no bearing on nozzle reaction.
    Is it just me or does 170 psi seem like an awfully high PDP for 200' 1 3/4" line with 50 psi nozzles??????
    The comments made by me are my opinions only. They DO NOT reflect the opinions of my employer(s). If you have an issue with something I may say, take it up with me, either by posting in the forums, emailing me through my profile, or PMing me through my profile.
    We are all adults so there is no need to act like a child........
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    Quote Originally Posted by firenresq77 View Post
    Is it just me or does 170 psi seem like an awfully high PDP for 200' 1 3/4" line with 50 psi nozzles??????
    Why would it seem high?

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    Quote Originally Posted by firenresq77 View Post
    Is it just me or does 170 psi seem like an awfully high PDP for 200' 1 3/4" line with 50 psi nozzles??????
    ACtually if you use the CQsquaredL formula it is a little low really.

    C=15.5
    Q=2 Qsquared=4
    L=2

    15.5x4x2=124FL +50NP = 174EP

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    Quote Originally Posted by FyredUp View Post
    What exactly did you like about them? Please share your experienece with us.

    We had thm for a while to demo and I was impressed with the high rate of flow and how easy they were to handle.

    http://00691ee.netsolhost.com/Testim...r%2520FDNY.pdf
    ALL GAVE SOME BUT SOME GAVE ALL
    NEVER FORGET 9-11-01
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    CAPT. Frank Callahan Ladder 35 *
    LT. John Ginley Engine 40
    FF. Bruce Gary Engine 40
    FF. Jimmy Giberson Ladder 35
    FF. Michael Otten Ladder 35 *
    FF. Steve Mercado Engine 40 *
    FF. Kevin Bracken Engine 40 *
    FF. Vincent Morello Ladder 35
    FF. Michael Roberts Ladder 35 *
    FF. Michael Lynch Engine 40
    FF. Michael Dauria Engine 40

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  12. #32
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    We have had the 200gpm 50 psi nozzles for a few years without any problems with the nozzle. The only issue we have is getting the crews to pump them so they they reach their 200gpm capability.
    Never calculated using any formula, just ran a flow meter.

    We run 175gpm 75psi nozzles on our 1 3/4" 200' crosslays and pump at 120-125. Yes, the flow is 175, not 200.
    "This thread is being closed as it is off-topic and not related to the fire industry." - Isn't that what the Off Duty forum was for?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bones42 View Post
    Never calculated using any formula, just ran a flow meter.

    We run 175gpm 75psi nozzles on our 1 3/4" 200' crosslays and pump at 120-125. Yes, the flow is 175, not 200.
    I assume you just throttle up until the meter reads whatever gpm you are looking for. I am just curious how you are able to overcome the friction loss with only 22-25psi per 100' . i did a quick calculation and for that gpm through 1 3/4 hose you need 46-47psi per 100'.Using the info you gave gives a pump discharge pressure of 168psi. I'm not saying you are wrong i'm just curious.

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    Quote Originally Posted by slipperypete View Post
    I assume you just throttle up until the meter reads whatever gpm you are looking for. I am just curious how you are able to overcome the friction loss with only 22-25psi per 100' . i did a quick calculation and for that gpm through 1 3/4 hose you need 46-47psi per 100'.Using the info you gave gives a pump discharge pressure of 168psi. I'm not saying you are wrong i'm just curious.
    You'd be surprised how off the tables and formulas are for todays fire hose, especially with the various manufacturers out there. The real numbers almost always come in lower than what the calculations say.

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    Quote Originally Posted by MG3610 View Post
    You'd be surprised how off the tables and formulas are for todays fire hose, especially with the various manufacturers out there. The real numbers almost always come in lower than what the calculations say.
    That's what I was thinking.......

    For some reason I am thinking that for our 100 psi combi nozzles, the PDP needs to be at like 153 psi for 200' 1 3/4".......
    The comments made by me are my opinions only. They DO NOT reflect the opinions of my employer(s). If you have an issue with something I may say, take it up with me, either by posting in the forums, emailing me through my profile, or PMing me through my profile.
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    Quote Originally Posted by MG3610 View Post
    You'd be surprised how off the tables and formulas are for todays fire hose, especially with the various manufacturers out there. The real numbers almost always come in lower than what the calculations say.
    Could you direct me to some of these tables and formulas? This appears to be cutting friction loss in half.

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    Quote Originally Posted by slipperypete View Post
    Could you direct me to some of these tables and formulas? This appears to be cutting friction loss in half.
    What I am saying is the formulas and frictions loss charts you typically get from pump manufacturers are typically based on old fire hose and are 20+ years out of date. They are a great way to get into the ballpark of getting the fight flows, but terrible for accuracy.

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    165 gpm is not used for offensive attack I suposse, so for that flow or greater a good technique is simply seating in the hose, this same technique I teach for flows of 250 gpm.

    In any case, the nozzle operators didn't want to be weared and teared when controling high flow/reaction nozzles, they simply must know how to deviate the reaction forces from them, in this link there is a good guide that myself wrote incluiding several photos: http://usuarios.lycos.es/firecontrol...PITONES21B.pdf

    In this shot (from the link) we can see a nozzle coupled to a Protek 95-250 gpm nozzle flowing 250 gpm(with TFT's Sho Flow) and 2" hose, operated easily and at no wearing for a pair of FFs, note that the reaction is sent to the pavement. (for the record: 150 ft of 2" hose and 175 psi at the pump).

    The nozzleman hands are only directing the stream, not holding the reaction, note also that the second FF is putting his knees over the hose, so the friction maintains it anchored against the pave.

    Regards
    Last edited by janusfire; 10-26-2008 at 10:51 PM.

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    [QUOTE=janusfire;1000361]165 gpm is not used for offensive attack I suposse, so for that flow or greater a good technique is simply seating in the hose, this same technique I teach for flows of 250 gpm.


    Why would you think that 165 gpm wouldn't be used for an offensive , interior attack? Nozzle reaction is what wears you down , not gpm.

    For the record we run 175 gpm @ 75 psi on all of our lines. They are Elkhart Brass , break apart nozzles , no pistol grips. Everyone carries a 15/16" tip in their coat or pants. Should they choose to use a smoothbore we just screw off the fog tip and screw on the 15/16" tip and tell the operator to drop the discharge pressure about 20 -25 pounds so that we get 50 psi at the nozzle rather than 75psi. Works great for us.

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    THEENGINEGOES

    No doubt that this works for you, but is simpler and "FF proof" using a selectable fog nozzle 95-250 gpm, you'll ever have all the components at hand, nor you've to thread out and then in a new tip.

    Besides, whats if that day the FF does not have the tip, or the thread is fooled with matter, mud, etc?.

    You need 150 gpm?, you only have to put the volume ring in 150, do you need 200 gpm, the same and so on.

    Regards

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