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Thread: Nozzle Reaction

  1. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by janusfire View Post
    THEENGINEGOES

    No doubt that this works for you, but is simpler and "FF proof" using a selectable fog nozzle 95-250 gpm, you'll ever have all the components at hand, nor you've to thread out and then in a new tip.

    Besides, whats if that day the FF does not have the tip, or the thread is fooled with matter, mud, etc?.

    You need 150 gpm?, you only have to put the volume ring in 150, do you need 200 gpm, the same and so on.

    Regards

    So your firefighters choose their flow at the nozzle? Ok so in a smoke condition they are gonna sit there and select through?
    And as far as the positioning on the hose line to cut down on nozzle reaction, how exactly is that crew going to "push in" when they have to sit on the line? The only safe way to cut down on nozzle reaction is cut down on operating pressure for nozzles. And the only safe way to do that without effecting GPM is to use low pressure fog nozzles or smoothbore nozzles.
    If you can't move the line due to the pressure your not making an aggressive advance into the building...


  2. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by janusfire View Post
    165 gpm is not used for offensive attack I suposse, so for that flow or greater a good technique is simply seating in the hose, this same technique I teach for flows of 250 gpm.

    In any case, the nozzle operators didn't want to be weared and teared when controling high flow/reaction nozzles, they simply must know how to deviate the reaction forces from them, in this link there is a good guide that myself wrote incluiding several photos: http://usuarios.lycos.es/firecontrol...PITONES21B.pdf

    In this shot (from the link) we can see a nozzle coupled to a Protek 95-250 gpm nozzle flowing 250 gpm(with TFT's Sho Flow) and 2" hose, operated easily and at no wearing for a pair of FFs, note that the reaction is sent to the pavement. (for the record: 150 ft of 2" hose and 175 psi at the pump).

    The nozzleman hands are only directing the stream, not holding the reaction, note also that the second FF is putting his knees over the hose, so the friction maintains it anchored against the pave.

    Regards

    How is it at all effective to "kneel" on the hose? The idea is to advance the line towards the seat of the fire.

    In an actual firefight...the line is advanced...opened...operated.. ..cracked down.... advanced further....opened....operated. It is generally not operated in the static fashion that you are using to illustrate "your" point.

    In the photo you provided, that is not at all an effective technique for backing up the nozzleman. You are doing nothing in that position but slowing the advance of the line and therefore slowing the extinguishment of the fire. When the nozzleman needs to move, you are in no position to counteract his movements.

  3. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by jakesdad View Post
    How is it at all effective to "kneel" on the hose? The idea is to advance the line towards the seat of the fire.

    In an actual firefight...the line is advanced...opened...operated.. ..cracked down.... advanced further....opened....operated. It is generally not operated in the static fashion that you are using to illustrate "your" point.

    In the photo you provided, that is not at all an effective technique for backing up the nozzleman. You are doing nothing in that position but slowing the advance of the line and therefore slowing the extinguishment of the fire. When the nozzleman needs to move, you are in no position to counteract his movements.

    DING! DING! DING!! We have a winner. Excellent post jakesdad.

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    Excuse the delay You could perfectly advance using traditional advancing technichs, but when stoping and aiming a stream, your partner kneel the hose and there is no fatigue, and far less air consumption. Then you grasp the hose again and again, it's no difficult....

    Firefighting it's not place for static positions.

    Besides, the best way of knowing the volume chosen it's by the reaction force....any well trained ff will know.

  5. #45
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    First of all, let's go back 4 years to this post.

    No doubt that this works for you, but is simpler and "FF proof" using a selectable fog nozzle 95-250 gpm, you'll ever have all the components at hand, nor you've to thread out and then in a new tip.

    Why? Set a target flow and buy a nozzle that will do that. My #1 POC FD selected 200 gpm at 75 psi nozzles. We can underpump to get 160 gpm which is our starting flow, call for more water and go to 200 gpm, or get rid of the combo tip and go to 300 gpm through a 1 1/4 slugtip. The changes in pressure are made at the pump not by dialing the nozzle.

    Besides, whats if that day the FF does not have the tip, or the thread is fooled with matter, mud, etc?.

    With the slug tip it is ALWAYS on the nozzle and all you haveto do is spin off the combo tip.

    Do you fight a lot of structure fires with mud inside the building?


    You need 150 gpm?, you only have to put the volume ring in 150, do you need 200 gpm, the same and so on.

    Nonsense. If the pump operator is pumping the line to supply you with 150 gpm at 100 psi turning the volume ring to 200 will NOT give you 200 gpm until the pump operator boosts the pressure to overcome the increased friction loss. You will not get 150 gpm simply by turning the volume control ring from 200 to 150 if the pump operator is pumping you for 200 gpm. The nozzle will be over pumped and the nozzle will get a higher pressure and thus a higer nozzle reaction. Your nozzle with the volume control ring still calls for coordination with the pump operator to ensure that the proper pressure is being pumped for the proper flow. Add to the the possibility that the pump operator is pumping one gpm and the nozzle is set for another. Belive me it happens. We used to run Akron Turbojets, one of my favorite nozzles, and they were supposed to be set at 125 and straight stream when on the engine. We found them at 30, 60, 95, 125, and the wrong pattern, all the time. The possibility for error is much higher.

    Regards
    Now let's address your latest post:

    Quote Originally Posted by janusfire View Post
    Excuse the delay You could perfectly advance using traditional advancing technichs, but when stoping and aiming a stream, your partner kneel the hose and there is no fatigue, and far less air consumption. Then you grasp the hose again and again, it's no difficult....

    The problem is stopping placing the hose on the floor and kneeling on it causes a delay in advancing the line. Frankly, if 2 firefighters can't control a handline flowing normal interior attack GPMs I would seriously look at their training. Kneeling on the hose is of course a great method for controlling hose if you are all alone on the line, or are going to be in a static position. For rapid forward movement however, it would not be high on my list.

    Firefighting it's not place for static positions.

    Interior firefighting for sure. We must keep advancing to be able to hit the base of the fire and kill it. That's why kneeling on the hose is too slow if you need to make rapid advances to kill the fire.
    Besides, the best way of knowing the volume chosen it's by the reaction force....any well trained ff will know.

    The best way to know the volume being flowed is to have the pump operator pump you what you ask for. If you aren't pumping the proper pressure to your volume control ring nozzles for a specific gpm you trully have no idea how much water you are flowing. We tested our nozzles with a flow meter and marked the gauges so the pump operator knows exactly what to pump our pre-connects at to meet the requested flow. A true example of the KISS principle.
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