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    Quote Originally Posted by Tomcat1066 View Post
    OK, I've thought about it a bit longer and figure, what the heck. I can be charitable and all that.

    However, in return for not discussing "you", you have to not bring up your "experiences" that you feel the need to share unless you're ready to discuss "you". If you bring up "you" and your life experiences again, then it's open season

    After all, every question about you has been posted as a response to something that you chose to share about yourself. Your experiences being used as an example of how your point is correct. However, when questioned further, you clam up. So, if you don't want people asking questions about yourself, then you should probably clam up a good bit sooner.
    fair enough. wait did i use the word fair? and, i never said i was correct, i just like to debate and see if someone can crush my argument. how else does one learn. i've been wrong about a lot of things in my life. a real man can admit when he's wrong. i'm not admitting to anything yet though.

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    Quote Originally Posted by jsin925 View Post
    fair enough. wait did i use the word fair? and, i never said i was correct, i just like to debate and see if someone can crush my argument. how else does one learn. i've been wrong about a lot of things in my life. a real man can admit when he's wrong. i'm not admitting to anything yet though.
    Hey, not a problem. However, you believe you are correct, right? I believe I'm correct. In truth, we might both be wrong.

    My point about the questions was that you brought it up to support your position, then refused to answer further questions, the answers of which would help our understanding of your position.

    But whatever. We have a deal then, correct?

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    Quote Originally Posted by ScareCrow57 View Post
    What is interesting is that the poor areas are republican and the wealthy areas are democratic. That alone says something.
    CA has both. I live and work in Orange County. A very republican area and very wealthy. Up north is San Francisco. Also a very wealthy area and democratic.

    What's your point?
    Politics is like driving. To go forward select "D", to go backward select "R."

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tomcat1066 View Post
    Hey, not a problem. However, you believe you are correct, right? I believe I'm correct. In truth, we might both be wrong.

    My point about the questions was that you brought it up to support your position, then refused to answer further questions, the answers of which would help our understanding of your position.

    But whatever. We have a deal then, correct?

    i can concede to your points, and yes, we have a deal.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dave1983 View Post
    Everyone needs to realize that the war on terror is the veil being used by the people currently in power to cover their actual agenda, which is of a much wider scope.
    Do you hear the black helicopters too?
    I am now a past chief and the views, opinions, and comments are mine and mine alone. I do not speak for any department or in any official capacity. Although, they would be smart to listen to me.

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    Quote Originally Posted by jsin925 View Post
    chavez was democratically elected. last election there were people there to make sure everything was on the up and up, and they declared that the election was kosher. he respected the votes of the people when they voted down his last referendum. what dictator does that?
    Are you really that naive? Do you not keep up with current events?

    http://www.usnews.com/usnews/opinion.../mb_040820.htm

    Chavez resisted the recall at every turn and used every dirty trick in the book, including granting citizenship to half a million illegal aliens and migrating people away from the polling places.

    As for Carter's review, he only visited the the main polling center and then left. There are many who questioned Carter's methods.

    After the referendum failed, Chavez's government then charged the group who pushed for the referendum with treason and conspiracy for receiving funds from the US that were used for voter education.

    He has gone out of his way to reverse any democratic trends. Please do a little reading on this guy. He's scum.


    Quote Originally Posted by jsin925 View Post
    i don't believe what the state dept says about him, considering the cia was in on the coup attempt in 2002, and continue to fund his opposition. he is no hitler or mussolini, but he may be a little like castro. he does give poor people here heating oil at a discounted rate. all a pr move, but he still does it.
    LOL, he's a peach.

    http://meganmcardle.theatlantic.com/...p_the_poor.php

    Great website from a native Venezualan

    http://vcrisis.com/index.php?content=home

    Quote Originally Posted by jsin925 View Post
    we violate human rights, extraordinary rendition for example, and we kill innocent people. we are no saints.
    Amnesty International report... you don't like your own country's state department, then how about this liberal group?

    http://www.amnesty.org/en/region/ame...nezuela#report


    Quote Originally Posted by jsin925 View Post
    i don't care about the single mother rate in norway. being a single mother isn't an evil to me.
    That sound was my point flying over your head. Did your Master's degree come with a free bowl of soup?
    I am now a past chief and the views, opinions, and comments are mine and mine alone. I do not speak for any department or in any official capacity. Although, they would be smart to listen to me.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ChiefKN View Post
    Are you really that naive? Do you not keep up with current events?

    http://www.usnews.com/usnews/opinion.../mb_040820.htm

    Chavez resisted the recall at every turn and used every dirty trick in the book, including granting citizenship to half a million illegal aliens and migrating people away from the polling places.

    As for Carter's review, he only visited the the main polling center and then left. There are many who questioned Carter's methods.

    After the referendum failed, Chavez's government then charged the group who pushed for the referendum with treason and conspiracy for receiving funds from the US that were used for voter education.

    He has gone out of his way to reverse any democratic trends. Please do a little reading on this guy. He's scum.

    LOL, he's a peach.

    http://meganmcardle.theatlantic.com/...p_the_poor.php

    Great website from a native Venezualan

    http://vcrisis.com/index.php?content=home

    Amnesty International report... you don't like your own country's state department, then how about this liberal group?

    http://www.amnesty.org/en/region/ame...nezuela#report

    That sound was my point flying over your head. Did your Master's degree come with a free bowl of soup?
    here are articles to refute yours, but you'll dismiss them as nutball.

    http://www.informationclearinghouse....ticle18836.htm

    http://www.informationclearinghouse....ticle18727.htm

    http://www.informationclearinghouse....ticle19762.htm

    http://www.informationclearinghouse....ticle18838.htm

    i bet you won't read them because you are not open to information that doesn't fit your paradigm.

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    Quote Originally Posted by jsin925 View Post
    our government is the corporations.
    Not hardly our government just happens to be a political entity whose leaders (of all parties) are all tied to businesses. are you anti-union?Nope and yes. I'm all for unions that desire to create a safer working enviroment and a liveable wage. I'm against any union that will steadfastly bleed a company dry. It is these unions who have caused many businesses to pack up and move oversees. i never said this country should become a socialist state. where did i say that?You have not said it outright but your thoughts have conveyed that message. i gave an example of fair trade coffee as a way that capitalism can work with fair market prices. the coffee roaster i spoke of is quite successful, and has done what it takes to succeed. they are the starbucks of my town. when i think free market i think nafta, cafta, etc. all in my opinion are bad programs. maybe i should be saying free trade instead. and for democrat haters nafta was bill clinton's plan. can't get mad at the gas prices then because that's the free market and capitalism. the government shouldn't intervene because that would be bad. why should bp, shell, mobile, etc, be fair to the consumer? they're raking in billion dollar profits, and that's what it takes to be successful, right?
    Know your terms fair trade and fair market are two different things. Free trade agreements are not fair trade agreements. The free trade agreements essientially means that their are no tariffs on products imported from the member countries. That's a bit simplistic but essientially true. Fair trade is no matter how you cut is socialistic economics.
    the majority of poor people are children. No ****. Children can't own property or work of course they are poor, they have no wealth. If you mean that kids are the most affected by poverty or it could mean that the poor people breed more than rich people. I've seen evidence of this as has many others the poorest sections of the city has households with the most children, why? Cause screwing is easier than getting a job or getting an education or otherwise bettering yourself. Stereotypical, probably but I don't care. Sugar coated howerever you want history proves me out. The lower classes have throughtout history bred more than the upper class.children are innocent.Innocent has nothing to do with it.

    i'm no christian, but i do believe that what you do to the least of my brethren you do unto me. but then again i guess jesus was more of a socialist.
    Nope not a socialist. A savior that required those who wanted to get to heaven to work through him. It takes personal responsibility and hard work to get there. Hmmm...hard work, personal responsibility, goals...nope doesn't have a thing to do with socialism.

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    Quote Originally Posted by jasper45 View Post
    You have to cut me some slack though, my quarterback was just dealt to the Jets. My entire sports world has been turned upside down in the past several months.
    Thats certainly understandable. Especially since we all thought he was coming down here.
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    Quote Originally Posted by ChiefKN View Post
    Do you hear the black helicopters too?
    I'm sorry to hear you have your head buried in the sand as well.
    Last edited by Dave1983; 08-07-2008 at 06:11 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by jlcooke3 View Post
    Not hardly our government just happens to be a political entity whose leaders (of all parties) are all tied to businesses.
    so much so that some corporate lobbyist have actually written out some of our legislation.

    Quote Originally Posted by jlcooke3 View Post
    You have not said it outright but your thoughts have conveyed that message.
    if i haven't said it then i don't believe it. what i have said is that socialism has work for some. monarchy works for the saudis, but i'm not promoting that we install a king.

    Quote Originally Posted by jlcooke3 View Post
    Fair trade is no matter how you cut is socialistic economics.
    i disagree, unless starbucks is dabbling in socialist economics. they sell fair trade coffee. right now it is a niche market. supply and demand.

    Quote Originally Posted by jlcooke3 View Post
    No ****. Children can't own property or work of course they are poor, they have no wealth. If you mean that kids are the most affected by poverty or it could mean that the poor people breed more than rich people. I've seen evidence of this as has many others the poorest sections of the city has households with the most children, why? Cause screwing is easier than getting a job or getting an education or otherwise bettering yourself. Stereotypical, probably but I don't care. Sugar coated howerever you want history proves me out. The lower classes have throughtout history bred more than the upper class.
    so bill gates' kids are poor? paris hilton grew up poor? throughout history poor people had more kids because they needed hands to work in the field, and the infant mortality rate was higher (still is higher in poor areas). poor people can't afford abortions, and lack adequate access to birth control. nevertheless, you missed my point.

    Quote Originally Posted by jlcooke3 View Post
    Nope not a socialist. A savior that required those who wanted to get to heaven to work through him. It takes personal responsibility and hard work to get there. Hmmm...hard work, personal responsibility, goals...nope doesn't have a thing to do with socialism.
    it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than a rich man to enter heaven. blessed are those who are poor at heart. the meek shall inherit the earth.

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    Quote Originally Posted by jasper45 View Post
    You have to cut me some slack though, my quarterback was just dealt to the Jets. My entire sports world has been turned upside down in the past several months.
    i think favre is being a hypocrite. he talked so much trash about sterling sharpe, now look at what he's doing. that's why i only truly follow boxing and mma.

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    Quote Originally Posted by jsin925 View Post
    i think favre is being a hypocrite. he talked so much trash about sterling sharpe, now look at what he's doing. that's why i only truly follow boxing and mma.


    That's great, I'm glad for you.
    If you can't separate the issue then, with what is happening now, so be it. The deal with Favre isn't about the money, never has been. There are deeper, darker issues at hand here, that none of us are privy to.

    A player can retire, and then "un-retire" if they so wish. It is then up to the team to decide whether they want the player back, or not. There is nothing hypocritical about that. What was that saying you've been tossing around? Oh, yeah ... judge not, lest ye be judged ... Sound familiar?

    As far as the other theatrics, oh, well. The crux of it is that Favre still wants to play, should still play, and will play. The Packers decided that their team wasn't where that will happen. It's business, and completely different from a contract dispute, such as Sterling Sharpe, or Javon Walker, or even Ryan Grant.

    Oh yeah, I can't stand boxing, and I like MMA even less.




    I also honestly don't think we could have drifted farther off the topic than I have now.

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    Quote Originally Posted by jasper45 View Post
    That's great, I'm glad for you.
    If you can't separate the issue then, with what is happening now, so be it. The deal with Favre isn't about the money, never has been. There are deeper, darker issues at hand here, that none of us are privy to.

    A player can retire, and then "un-retire" if they so wish. It is then up to the team to decide whether they want the player back, or not. There is nothing hypocritical about that. What was that saying you've been tossing around? Oh, yeah ... judge not, lest ye be judged ... Sound familiar?

    As far as the other theatrics, oh, well. The crux of it is that Favre still wants to play, should still play, and will play. The Packers decided that their team wasn't where that will happen. It's business, and completely different from a contract dispute, such as Sterling Sharpe, or Javon Walker, or even Ryan Grant.

    Oh yeah, I can't stand boxing, and I like MMA even less.




    I also honestly don't think we could have drifted farther off the topic than I have now.
    touche'. nancy pelosi sucks, and you're right i was being a hypocrite.

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    Quote Originally Posted by jsin925 View Post
    throughout history poor people had more kids because they needed hands to work in the field, and the infant mortality rate was higher (still is higher in poor areas). poor people can't afford abortions, and lack adequate access to birth control.
    I'm sure the fact that we have a welfare system that, among other things, rewards for having children has nothing to do with it. Why go look for a job when I can pop another kid out and get extra $$$ from Uncle Sam?
    So you call this your free country
    Tell me why it costs so much to live
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dave1983 View Post
    I'm sorry to hear you have your head buried in the sand as well.
    I love it, another conspiracy theorist with NO evidence.

    You think my head is in the sand, I won't say where I think your head is.
    I am now a past chief and the views, opinions, and comments are mine and mine alone. I do not speak for any department or in any official capacity. Although, they would be smart to listen to me.

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    Quote Originally Posted by jsin925 View Post
    here are articles to refute yours, but you'll dismiss them as nutball.

    http://www.informationclearinghouse....ticle18836.htm

    http://www.informationclearinghouse....ticle18727.htm

    http://www.informationclearinghouse....ticle19762.htm

    http://www.informationclearinghouse....ticle18838.htm

    i bet you won't read them because you are not open to information that doesn't fit your paradigm.
    Great source, some whackjob with a webpage. Yet you don't believe a very straight forward document from the US State Department, Amnesty International....

    C'mon dude, you're pulling my leg with this Chavez stuff.
    I am now a past chief and the views, opinions, and comments are mine and mine alone. I do not speak for any department or in any official capacity. Although, they would be smart to listen to me.

    "The last thing I want to do is hurt you. But it's still on the list."

    "When tempted to fight fire with fire, remember that the Fire Department usually uses water."

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    Quote Originally Posted by voyager9 View Post
    I'm sure the fact that we have a welfare system that, among other things, rewards for having children has nothing to do with it. Why go look for a job when I can pop another kid out and get extra $$$ from Uncle Sam?
    that was true in the past, but at least in my town, it doesn't exist anymore. the new system is called w-2, and one can only be on it for 2 years throughout ones life, and there is cap on what one can get no matter how many children one has. it's been like this since the 90s. another clinton plan. i don't agree with the old system of welfare, but the new system actually costs more, which defeats the purpose to me. the ramifications of it are also something one can write a dissertation on.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ChiefKN View Post
    Great source, some whackjob with a webpage. Yet you don't believe a very straight forward document from the US State Department, Amnesty International....

    C'mon dude, you're pulling my leg with this Chavez stuff.
    my point is that there are two sides to every story. the majority of articles are from james petras who is (or was) an emeritus professor of sociology at SUNY binghamton. his documents are straight forward too, just not along your ideological spectrum. i can say that he writes in a very academic way though.

    do you believe everything amnesty international says about the usa? the government has lost a lot of credibility with me with the whole there are weapons of mass destruction in iraq and we have proof, but they were wrong.

    and, you know i can say the state dept is full of wackjobs. god knows congress is.

    there is a great documentary called "the revolution will not be televised" where some irish filmmakers were doing a documentary on chavez and happen to catch the whole coup on film. it shows how the tv stations were complicit with the coup and distorted images to make it look like the chavez supporters were crazy people shooting innocent demostrators. whether one likes chavez or not it is a great film. here's a link to it: http://video.google.com/videoplay?do...90545689805144

    i know you won't watch it, but it is a great film.

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    Quote Originally Posted by jsin925 View Post
    the new system is called w-2, and one can only be on it for 2 years throughout ones life, and there is cap on what one can get no matter how many children one has. it's been like this since the 90s. another clinton plan.

    Actually, it was created by former Gov. Tommy Thompson. It was also a brilliant plan that was implemented in 1997, or so.
    It was so revolutionary that many copied it elsewhere. It absolutely needed to be done, and I would gladly challenge any claim that it costs more now than before.
    I saw firsthand how much abuse was on the welfare system here before. We removed a lot of free loaders off of our tax roll.

    And before you get upset by that remark, the free loaders were those people who came here only to collect welfare. It happened, and it was ridiculous. Prior to W2, people flocked here to get on the system, because the requirements to collect were so lenient and lax.
    The abuses happening were criminal.

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    Quote Originally Posted by jasper45 View Post
    Actually, it was created by former Gov. Tommy Thompson. It was also a brilliant plan that was implemented in 1997, or so.
    It was so revolutionary that many copied it elsewhere. It absolutely needed to be done, and I would gladly challenge any claim that it costs more now than before.
    I saw firsthand how much abuse was on the welfare system here before. We removed a lot of free loaders off of our tax roll.

    And before you get upset by that remark, the free loaders were those people who came here only to collect welfare. It happened, and it was ridiculous. Prior to W2, people flocked here to get on the system, because the requirements to collect were so lenient and lax.
    The abuses happening were criminal.
    hey, i'm not upset, i personally know people who abused the system, and a lot of people from chicago came up to cash in on it. i also know some families that were hurt by it too. mothers working 2-3 jobs and the kids basically raising themselves and running wild. i'm not saying that it is the responsibility of anyone other than the parents to raise the kids, but i know some good people who met hard times and their kids suffered. where were the fathers? dealing or not dealing with their issues i assume. some were off living the "thug life" selling drugs and trying to be superfly, and their kids suffered from it. some had no idea how to be a father because they never had an example. such is life in the inner city. i try not to judge people, things are the way they are regardless of my opinion. i was fortunate enough to come from a two parent household and both my parents went to work everyday. i also know immigrants who were never on welfare, but were working under the table. and the funny thing is, their kids who were born here and are american by birth have issues, while the kids who were between 5 and 8 when they got here took full advantage of their opportunities. what does that say about us (americans by birth that is)?

    something had to change, but i do believe in a safety net (i'm not anti-new deal). i take you up on your challenge though, that it hasn't cost more.

    one thing that i found hilarious during the whole thing was the group that called themselves the welfare warriors. some people have no shame. when i was growing up, one hid the fact that they received food stamps. i also know some people who grew up upper middle class who got food stamps when they left their parents' house to experience what it was like to be poor. that really ****ed me off. the majority of poor people i knew didn't want to be poor, and didn't feel great about being on welfare. but, i knew people who had pride, but were willing to swallow it when they had to.

    as a firefighter i'm sure you saw a lot of people who were just looking to get over on the system anyway possible. i grew up with some of those people, but they were in the minority. a friend of mine is a nurse and he would get ****ed off at all of the alcoholics and cocaine addicts who would come in the emergency room and tap out the blood bank. such is city living, and i have to admit that i love the city (but not all the people in it).

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    Quote Originally Posted by jsin925 View Post
    my point is that there are two sides to every story. the majority of articles are from james petras who is (or was) an emeritus professor of sociology at SUNY binghamton. his documents are straight forward too, just not along your ideological spectrum. i can say that he writes in a very academic way though.

    do you believe everything amnesty international says about the usa? the government has lost a lot of credibility with me with the whole there are weapons of mass destruction in iraq and we have proof, but they were wrong.

    and, you know i can say the state dept is full of wackjobs. god knows congress is.

    there is a great documentary called "the revolution will not be televised" where some irish filmmakers were doing a documentary on chavez and happen to catch the whole coup on film. it shows how the tv stations were complicit with the coup and distorted images to make it look like the chavez supporters were crazy people shooting innocent demostrators. whether one likes chavez or not it is a great film. here's a link to it: http://video.google.com/videoplay?do...90545689805144

    i know you won't watch it, but it is a great film.
    The human rights violations and his anti-democratic actions are well documented.

    Are there problems within the USA, sure.. but it's still a democracy. What Chavez has done and is still doing is slowly reversing policy towards a dictatorship.

    He has looked to end term limits for president, and has publicly stated that he wants to be president for 25 years.

    He has used death squads and imprisonment to supress his political adversaries.

    He controls the press and stifles personal freedoms.

    How can you defend or deny that?
    I am now a past chief and the views, opinions, and comments are mine and mine alone. I do not speak for any department or in any official capacity. Although, they would be smart to listen to me.

    "The last thing I want to do is hurt you. But it's still on the list."

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    Quote Originally Posted by ChiefKN View Post
    The human rights violations and his anti-democratic actions are well documented.

    Are there problems within the USA, sure.. but it's still a democracy. What Chavez has done and is still doing is slowly reversing policy towards a dictatorship.

    He has looked to end term limits for president, and has publicly stated that he wants to be president for 25 years.

    He has used death squads and imprisonment to supress his political adversaries.

    He controls the press and stifles personal freedoms.

    How can you defend or deny that?
    not to defend, but to play the devil's advocate, the referendum that was voted down by the people was to end term limits. chavez honored the peoples' choice. in england can't one be prime minister as long as the people keep voting him/her in? aren't there no term limits? i could be wrong, please correct me if i am.

    the majority of the media in venezeula is against chavez and calls for his removal. he does have a show where he rants for hours at a time sometimes, but the majority of the media is independent. otherwise, you wouldn't be able to get info from venezuela against him.

    his use of death squads i don't now about. my knowledge is that that info is false. otherwise his referendum would have passed. his political adversaries have held demonstrations against him.

    the usa being a democracy is up for debate. the electorial college is for *****, considering gore won the popular vote, meaning the majority of people wanted gore for be president. bush won less of the peoples vote than gore. voter lists are purged, and i don't trust diebold and their voter machines. in 2000 the supreme court ordered that the counting of votes be stopped. if chavez and his opponent were neck and neck, and the election came down to a state that chavez's brother was governor of, and he won that state, i bet you would say that chavez's brother fixed that state so chavez would win.

    didn't bush argue that people have the right to vote, but nowhere does it say that your vote has the right to count? people don't even choose who is running for president, it's the super delegates. the primaries are pretty much a show. the electorial college picks the president not the people. if we were a true democracy the people would have had a chance to vote on whether or not we should go to war. we are a republic, and i don't even know about that.

    did you read james petras' articles about chavez?

  24. #274
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    Forgive me if this has already been said, but I don't have the patience to read through 13 pages worth!

    Everybody, Obama, Hillary, PELOSI, etc. is harping about the oil companies having windfall profits year after year. This may be so, but their mark up on their product is on average 8%. The average mark up on all other products clothing, food, etc. is 12%. (I'll see if I can find the AP article link on this for proof.) The media is constantly force feeding the populace negative information on "Big Oil". Why don't they approach it from another point of view and ask what can be done to get the price at the pump down? We have China drilling off of our shores, yet the our own oil companies are not allowed to drill anywhere! Rather than blaming Big Oil blame our government. Congress is demanding higher fleet gpm requirements yet absolutely refuses to allow new drilling. We have a veritable bounty of oil all over this country! Yet the presiding argument is NIMBY (Not In My Back Yard).

    As for ANWAR and the "horrible" damage that will be caused to the caribou and their habitat; the caribou population has exploded since the pipeline was brought up and running. Why? Because the heat dissipating off of the pipeline makes the surrounding area an ideal breeding area for caribou. So apparently the pipeline has become the local caribou party house! haha

    Then we have the libs, and some Republicans, pushing for more E85. Everybody knows how much of a joke that is, but in conjunction with the increase in fuel prices we now have an even larger percentage increase on food such as milk. Yet this is our wonderful Congress' answer to the rising cost of gas, put more corn it!!

    It's simple: DRILL DRILL DRILL!!!

  25. #275
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    Quote Originally Posted by flamewalker25 View Post
    This may be so, but their mark up on their product is on average 8%.
    You don't actually believe the markup on a gallon of gas reflects their total profit...do you? Oil companies are vertically integrated. They are able to hide profits and costs at numerous places between the extraction of oil out of the groung and the pump where you put it into your car.

    The poor things are only getting by with 8%. I'm sure they'll be having to put recaps on the G5.
    Politics is like driving. To go forward select "D", to go backward select "R."

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