1. #276
    Forum Member
    Raughammer1's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2007
    Location
    Texas
    Posts
    667

    Exclamation

    Quote Originally Posted by flamewalker25 View Post

    Everybody, Obama, Hillary, PELOSI, etc. is harping about the oil companies having windfall profits year after year. This may be so, but their mark up on their product is on average 8%. The average mark up on all other products clothing, food, etc. is 12%. .........
    It's simple: DRILL DRILL DRILL!!!


    “The ‘windfall profits’ tax is back, with Barack Obama stumping again to apply it to a handful of big oil companies. Which raises a few questions: What is a ‘windfall’ profit anyway? How does it differ from your everyday, run of the mill profit? Is it some absolute number, a matter of return on equity or sales—or does it merely depend on who earns it? Enquiring entrepreneurs want to know. Unfortunately, Mr. Obama’s ‘emergency’ plan, announced on Friday, doesn’t offer any clarity. To pay for ‘stimulus’ checks of $1,000 for families and $500 for individuals, the Senator says government would take ‘a reasonable share’ of oil company profits. Mr. Obama didn’t bother to define ‘reasonable’... This extraordinary redefinition of free-market success could use some parsing. Take Exxon Mobil, which on Thursday reported the highest quarterly profit ever and is the main target of any ‘windfall’ tax surcharge. Yet if its profits are at record highs, its tax bills are already at record highs too. Between 2003 and 2007, Exxon paid $64.7 billion in U.S. taxes, exceeding its after-tax U.S. earnings by more than $19 billion. That sounds like a government windfall to us, but perhaps we’re missing some... business subtlety. Maybe [Obama has] in mind profit margins as a percentage of sales. Yet by that standard Exxon’s profits don’t seem so large. Exxon’s profit margin stood at 10% for 2007, which is hardly out of line with the oil and gas industry average of 8.3%, or the 8.9% for U.S. manufacturing (excluding the sputtering auto makers). If that’s what constitutes windfall profits, most of corporate America would qualify... The fun part about this game is anyone can play. Jim Johnson, formerly of Fannie Mae and formerly a political fixer for Mr. Obama, reaped a windfall before Fannie’s multibillion-dollar accounting scandal. Bill Clinton took down as much as $15 million working as a rainmaker for billionaire financier Ron Burkle’s Yucaipa Companies. This may be the very definition of ‘windfall.’... The point is that what constitutes an abnormal profit is entirely arbitrary. It is in the eye of the political beholder, who is usually looking to soak some unpopular business. In other words, a windfall is nothing more than a profit earned by a business that some politician dislikes. And a tax on that profit is merely a form of politically motivated expropriation. It’s what politicians do in Venezuela, not in a free country.” —The Wall Street Journal

  2. #277
    Forum Member
    Raughammer1's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2007
    Location
    Texas
    Posts
    667

    Exclamation

    Quote Originally Posted by giweff View Post
    They all make over 100,000 $$ a year. Prob more for most of them b/c of other things. They don't give a **** about us and how much we pay for gas. The can afford it. Most Americans can't go on vacation, they are taking six weeks. Must be nice anyone on here get six weeks off at a time? I don't care if you are a dem or a Rep what they are doing is wrong. They should be at work trying to do something. And kicking everyone out is the biggest piece of $hit thing I have ever head of. What is our country coming to.

    It’s one thing [for House Speaker Nancy Pelosi] to not allow a vote on more energy production. It’s another to not even allow people to speak about it... You can turn off the lights, but you cannot silence the will of the American people.” —John Campbell

    “I really believe that the reason why the Democratic leadership has not brought [The American Energy Act] or a compromise bill like that to the floor is because it would pass.” —Rep. Mike Pence (R-IN)
    Last edited by Raughammer1; 08-08-2008 at 03:00 AM.

  3. #278
    Forum Member
    Dave1983's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2003
    Location
    Gator Country
    Posts
    4,157

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by ChiefKN View Post
    I love it, another conspiracy theorist with NO evidence.

    You think my head is in the sand, I won't say where I think your head is.

    No theories at all. There is plenty of evidence, look for it. I did. I even posted a couple things for all to check out.

    The Bush administration is and always has been in bed with the far right (among others) and have made no secret of it. In fact, it was part of his platform during the elections.

    Want one example? Just do a search on that champion of morality, Alberto Gonzales and his crusade against that most precious of rights, freedom of speech.

    Trust me, its all there for all to see if you take the time to look.

    If it makes you feel better to ignore the truth and in doing so digress into insults, so be it.

    Then again, perhaps your one of the the far right nuts who supports whats going on.

    Either way, since you went where you did in your last post, its clear that an intelligent discussion is out of the question. I'm finished with this exchange.

    Have a nice day...
    Fire Marshal/Safety Officer

    IAAI-NFPA-IAFC/VCOS-Retired IAFF

    "No his mind is not for rent, to any god or government"
    RUSH-Tom Sawyer

    Success is when skill meets opportunity
    Failure is when fantasy meets reality

  4. #279
    Back In Black
    ChiefKN's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2003
    Location
    The Nice Part of New Jersey
    Posts
    6,981

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Dave1983 View Post
    No theories at all. There is plenty of evidence, look for it. I did. I even posted a couple things for all to check out.

    The Bush administration is and always has been in bed with the far right (among others) and have made no secret of it. In fact, it was part of his platform during the elections.

    Want one example? Just do a search on that champion of morality, Alberto Gonzales and his crusade against that most precious of rights, freedom of speech.

    Trust me, its all there for all to see if you take the time to look.

    If it makes you feel better to ignore the truth and in doing so digress into insults, so be it.

    Then again, perhaps your one of the the far right nuts who supports whats going on.

    Either way, since you went where you did in your last post, its clear that an intelligent discussion is out of the question. I'm finished with this exchange.

    Have a nice day...
    Care to provide some of this evidence or just throw around headlines?

    I'm not ignoring any "truths", I have not seen any yet. Just black helicopter theories about the "far right".

    Pony up friend, you made the claims.
    I am now a past chief and the views, opinions, and comments are mine and mine alone. I do not speak for any department or in any official capacity. Although, they would be smart to listen to me.

    "The last thing I want to do is hurt you. But it's still on the list."

    "When tempted to fight fire with fire, remember that the Fire Department usually uses water."

  5. #280
    Back In Black
    ChiefKN's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2003
    Location
    The Nice Part of New Jersey
    Posts
    6,981

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by jsin925 View Post
    not to defend, but to play the devil's advocate, the referendum that was voted down by the people was to end term limits. chavez honored the peoples' choice. in england can't one be prime minister as long as the people keep voting him/her in? aren't there no term limits? i could be wrong, please correct me if i am.

    the majority of the media in venezeula is against chavez and calls for his removal. he does have a show where he rants for hours at a time sometimes, but the majority of the media is independent. otherwise, you wouldn't be able to get info from venezuela against him.

    his use of death squads i don't now about. my knowledge is that that info is false. otherwise his referendum would have passed. his political adversaries have held demonstrations against him.

    the usa being a democracy is up for debate. the electorial college is for *****, considering gore won the popular vote, meaning the majority of people wanted gore for be president. bush won less of the peoples vote than gore. voter lists are purged, and i don't trust diebold and their voter machines. in 2000 the supreme court ordered that the counting of votes be stopped. if chavez and his opponent were neck and neck, and the election came down to a state that chavez's brother was governor of, and he won that state, i bet you would say that chavez's brother fixed that state so chavez would win.

    didn't bush argue that people have the right to vote, but nowhere does it say that your vote has the right to count? people don't even choose who is running for president, it's the super delegates. the primaries are pretty much a show. the electorial college picks the president not the people. if we were a true democracy the people would have had a chance to vote on whether or not we should go to war. we are a republic, and i don't even know about that.

    did you read james petras' articles about chavez?
    I read one of his posts.

    So basically, your position is that the US is not a democracy and Venezuela is?

    I'm not going to correct you on your wild and uneducated position that America is not a democracy. It's not a debate at all, and I urge you to get your hands on a fifth grade civics text.

    Super delegates do not select the candidates. The individual parties do, have a problem with your party's process, take it up with them. FYI, the Republican party does not use super delegates.

    The electoral college... well, I'm not a fan either, but you cannot point to that as an example of how the US is not a democracy. It has no bearing on how we create laws and govern. It only impacts how we elect the chief executive.

    Here is more information by a nonprofit organization www.freedomhouse.org. This organization tracks countries and their progress towards the democratic ideals, such as freedom.

    http://freedomhouse.org/template.cfm...ccrcountry=141

    Stop playing devil's advocate. It really isn't a proper role for someone who has such a poor grasp of the topic at hand.
    I am now a past chief and the views, opinions, and comments are mine and mine alone. I do not speak for any department or in any official capacity. Although, they would be smart to listen to me.

    "The last thing I want to do is hurt you. But it's still on the list."

    "When tempted to fight fire with fire, remember that the Fire Department usually uses water."

  6. #281
    Back In Black
    ChiefKN's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2003
    Location
    The Nice Part of New Jersey
    Posts
    6,981

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Raughammer1 View Post
    “The ‘windfall profits’ tax is back, with Barack Obama stumping again to apply it to a handful of big oil companies. Which raises a few questions: What is a ‘windfall’ profit anyway? How does it differ from your everyday, run of the mill profit? Is it some absolute number, a matter of return on equity or sales—or does it merely depend on who earns it? Enquiring entrepreneurs want to know. Unfortunately, Mr. Obama’s ‘emergency’ plan, announced on Friday, doesn’t offer any clarity. To pay for ‘stimulus’ checks of $1,000 for families and $500 for individuals, the Senator says government would take ‘a reasonable share’ of oil company profits. Mr. Obama didn’t bother to define ‘reasonable’... This extraordinary redefinition of free-market success could use some parsing. Take Exxon Mobil, which on Thursday reported the highest quarterly profit ever and is the main target of any ‘windfall’ tax surcharge. Yet if its profits are at record highs, its tax bills are already at record highs too. Between 2003 and 2007, Exxon paid $64.7 billion in U.S. taxes, exceeding its after-tax U.S. earnings by more than $19 billion. That sounds like a government windfall to us, but perhaps we’re missing some... business subtlety. Maybe [Obama has] in mind profit margins as a percentage of sales. Yet by that standard Exxon’s profits don’t seem so large. Exxon’s profit margin stood at 10% for 2007, which is hardly out of line with the oil and gas industry average of 8.3%, or the 8.9% for U.S. manufacturing (excluding the sputtering auto makers). If that’s what constitutes windfall profits, most of corporate America would qualify... The fun part about this game is anyone can play. Jim Johnson, formerly of Fannie Mae and formerly a political fixer for Mr. Obama, reaped a windfall before Fannie’s multibillion-dollar accounting scandal. Bill Clinton took down as much as $15 million working as a rainmaker for billionaire financier Ron Burkle’s Yucaipa Companies. This may be the very definition of ‘windfall.’... The point is that what constitutes an abnormal profit is entirely arbitrary. It is in the eye of the political beholder, who is usually looking to soak some unpopular business. In other words, a windfall is nothing more than a profit earned by a business that some politician dislikes. And a tax on that profit is merely a form of politically motivated expropriation. It’s what politicians do in Venezuela, not in a free country.” —The Wall Street Journal

    Wealth redistribution at it's finest... Obama should be ashamed.

    Typical liberal approach. Polarize and divide the haves and have-nots. Create a disenfranchised voting block, stay in power.
    I am now a past chief and the views, opinions, and comments are mine and mine alone. I do not speak for any department or in any official capacity. Although, they would be smart to listen to me.

    "The last thing I want to do is hurt you. But it's still on the list."

    "When tempted to fight fire with fire, remember that the Fire Department usually uses water."

  7. #282
    MembersZone Subscriber

    Join Date
    May 2000
    Location
    SW MO
    Posts
    4,249

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by flamewalker25 View Post
    Forgive me if this has already been said, but I don't have the patience to read through 13 pages worth!

    Everybody, Obama, Hillary, PELOSI, etc. is harping about the oil companies having windfall profits year after year. This may be so, but their mark up on their product is on average 8%. The average mark up on all other products clothing, food, etc. is 12%. (I'll see if I can find the AP article link on this for proof.) The media is constantly force feeding the populace negative information on "Big Oil". Why don't they approach it from another point of view and ask what can be done to get the price at the pump down? We have China drilling off of our shores, yet the our own oil companies are not allowed to drill anywhere! Rather than blaming Big Oil blame our government. Congress is demanding higher fleet gpm requirements yet absolutely refuses to allow new drilling. We have a veritable bounty of oil all over this country! Yet the presiding argument is NIMBY (Not In My Back Yard).

    As for ANWAR and the "horrible" damage that will be caused to the caribou and their habitat; the caribou population has exploded since the pipeline was brought up and running. Why? Because the heat dissipating off of the pipeline makes the surrounding area an ideal breeding area for caribou. So apparently the pipeline has become the local caribou party house! haha

    Then we have the libs, and some Republicans, pushing for more E85. Everybody knows how much of a joke that is, but in conjunction with the increase in fuel prices we now have an even larger percentage increase on food such as milk. Yet this is our wonderful Congress' answer to the rising cost of gas, put more corn it!!

    It's simple: DRILL DRILL DRILL!!!
    While I'm all for drilling and using our own oil, it's my understanding that middle-east oil (Sweet crude I believe they call it) requires far less refining. Ours is almost sludge compared to that stuff.

    I think a bigger priority (at least from my viewpoint) is to start using the pumps out in Kansas, Oklahoma, Texas, and other places that are sitting idle. Build more refineries, as well, so that we can handle the ever-increasing demand instead of letting other countries refine it for us. If you want to start drilling in some isolated portion of a wildlife reserve or off the coast of Florida, go for it and get it ready for future issues.

    All the while, start looking at alternative energy that is efficient and cost-effective, not using a gallon of oil to turn corn into a gallon of gas that gets half the mileage.

  8. #283
    Forum Member

    Join Date
    Apr 2008
    Posts
    104

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by ChiefKN View Post
    I read one of his posts.

    So basically, your position is that the US is not a democracy and Venezuela is?
    no, not at all. there is no universally accepted definition of what a democracy is (at least i think i read that somewhere) because it can take on many different manifestations. in my definition, a true a democracy is a system where the people get to vote on everything. is this possible in today's world? probably not. but our elections have been/are rigged just like other countries.

    Quote Originally Posted by ChiefKN View Post
    I'm not going to correct you on your wild and uneducated position that America is not a democracy. It's not a debate at all, and I urge you to get your hands on a fifth grade civics text..
    i just wish i could have gotten a chance to vote on the PATRIOT act, whether or not we should have invaded iraq, and on the supreme court justices. we are a representative democracy but that doesn't mean that the representatives will do the will of the people. they will do what they want. i'm for a more direct democracy.

    and just because one votes doesn't mean their vote will count. in 2000 the supreme court disrupted the democratic process. and, with these voting machines we have today, you don't know who you are voting for, the computer decides.

    Quote Originally Posted by ChiefKN View Post
    Super delegates do not select the candidates. The individual parties do, have a problem with your party's process, take it up with them. FYI, the Republican party does not use super delegates.
    i don't belong to any party and i dislike the two major ones and their candidates. i just think the whole thing is rigged.

    Quote Originally Posted by ChiefKN View Post
    The electoral college... well, I'm not a fan either, but you cannot point to that as an example of how the US is not a democracy. It has no bearing on how we create laws and govern. It only impacts how we elect the chief executive.
    you got me there.

    Quote Originally Posted by ChiefKN View Post
    Here is more information by a nonprofit organization www.freedomhouse.org. This organization tracks countries and their progress towards the democratic ideals, such as freedom.

    http://freedomhouse.org/template.cfm...ccrcountry=141

    Stop playing devil's advocate. It really isn't a proper role for someone who has such a poor grasp of the topic at hand.
    our freedoms are slowly but surely being eroded. at the last republican convention wasn't there a spot call the free speech zone where one could express their views, otherwise one risked arrest outside of that zone. i thought everywhere i step in this country is a free speech zone. the PATRIOT act gives the government the right to suspend all of your rights and take away your freedom if they feel like it.

  9. #284
    Forum Member

    Join Date
    Apr 2008
    Posts
    104

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Catch22 View Post
    While I'm all for drilling and using our own oil, it's my understanding that middle-east oil (Sweet crude I believe they call it) requires far less refining. Ours is almost sludge compared to that stuff.

    I think a bigger priority (at least from my viewpoint) is to start using the pumps out in Kansas, Oklahoma, Texas, and other places that are sitting idle. Build more refineries, as well, so that we can handle the ever-increasing demand instead of letting other countries refine it for us. If you want to start drilling in some isolated portion of a wildlife reserve or off the coast of Florida, go for it and get it ready for future issues.

    All the while, start looking at alternative energy that is efficient and cost-effective, not using a gallon of oil to turn corn into a gallon of gas that gets half the mileage.
    there has to be a lot of money in alternative energy. the first person to come up with a cost effective way of producing it will be a billionaire.

  10. #285
    the 4-1-4
    Jasper 45's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2002
    Location
    ...A great place, on a Great Lake
    Posts
    2,784

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by jsin925 View Post
    at the last republican convention wasn't there a spot call the free speech zone where one could express their views, otherwise one risked arrest outside of that zone. i thought everywhere i step in this country is a free speech zone. the PATRIOT act gives the government the right to suspend all of your rights and take away your freedom if they feel like it.
    Have you ever heard of security? They establish these zones not to infringe on free speech rights, but to allow people to use their free speech, and express themselves safely for all.
    There really are no bigger security risks than both parties national conventions. Why do people not understand this? Everyone has the right to free speech, but everyone also has the right to be safe. Security is a huge issue, and needs to be addressed. In fact, the DNC is doing the same thing in Denver, and it's ****ing people off out there too.
    Believe it or not, free speech has some limitations.

    The Secret Service is in a tough spot, but they are letting people express themselves. These conventions are extraordinary events, that are huge targets, and provide a nightmare to keep everyone safe. The amount of leaders who will be present at these events is about as juicy a target as there is.

    The only people in New York who were arrested were those who wanted to be arrested. The actions of the Secret Service in these cases is in no way a violation of anyones free speech.
    Last edited by jasper45; 08-08-2008 at 01:43 PM.

  11. #286
    Forum Member

    Join Date
    Jun 2008
    Location
    SW Mo
    Posts
    50

    Default

    [QUOTE=Raughammer1;976165]“The ‘windfall profits’ tax is back, with Barack Obama stumping again to apply it to a handful of big oil companies. Which raises a few questions: What is a ‘windfall’ profit anyway? How does it differ from your everyday, run of the mill profit? Is it some absolute number, a matter of return on equity or sales—or does it merely depend on who earns it? Enquiring entrepreneurs want to know. Unfortunately, Mr. Obama’s ‘emergency’ plan, announced on Friday, doesn’t offer any clarity. To pay for ‘stimulus’ checks of $1,000 for families and $500 for individuals, the Senator says government would take ‘a reasonable share’ of oil company profits. Mr. Obama didn’t bother to define ‘reasonable’... This extraordinary redefinition of free-market success could use some parsing. Take Exxon Mobil, which on Thursday reported the highest quarterly profit ever and is the main target of any ‘windfall’ tax surcharge. Yet if its profits are at record highs, its tax bills are already at record highs too. Between 2003 and 2007, Exxon paid $64.7 billion in U.S. taxes, exceeding its after-tax U.S. earnings by more than $19 billion. That sounds like a government windfall to us, but perhaps we’re missing some... business subtlety.


    Great post!!! Obama is a socialist through and through. Socialism is the one type of government that has proven time and again to fail. Wealth redistribution ala USSR, historic Germany, on and on and on. In most cases I don't care for government hand outs. There are some cases where people, through no fault of their own, have fallen on hard times and need a little help to bounce back. That's fine with me. Use the system's help once to get back on your feet, but not again.

    Does anybody remember both Hillary and Obama saying "I'm going to get Big Oil's money"??? Keep your friggin' hands out of there!!! We're already taxing the crap out of Big Oil and we wonder why gas is so high?! In Missouri I think total taxes on a gallon of gas is approx. $.45-.50/gallon. Seriously?! Does the government need THAT much $$$ off of oil? Big government should absolutely LOVE Big Oil!!! Instead the libs want to take more from Big Oil, yeah that'll lower price at the pump.

  12. #287
    Forum Member

    Join Date
    Apr 2008
    Posts
    104

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by jasper45 View Post
    Have you ever heard of security? They establish these zones not to infringe on free speech rights, but to allow people to use their free speech, and express themselves safely for all.
    There really are no bigger security risks than both parties national conventions. Why do people not understand this? Everyone has the right to free speech, but everyone also has the right to be safe. Security is a huge issue, and needs to be addressed. In fact, the DNC is doing the same thing in Denver, and it's ****ing people off out there too.
    Believe it or not, free speech has some limitations.

    The Secret Service is in a tough spot, but they are letting people express themselves. These conventions are extraordinary events, that are huge targets, and provide a nightmare to keep everyone safe. The amount of leaders who will be present at these events is about as juicy a target as there is.

    The only people in New York who were arrested were those who wanted to be arrested. The actions of the Secret Service in these cases is in no way a violation of anyones free speech.
    didn't benjamin franklin say that those who sacrifice liberty for security deserve neither.

    here's an article from the american conservative that blasts the free speech zones: http://www.amconmag.com/12_15_03/feature.html

  13. #288
    Forum Member

    Join Date
    Jun 2008
    Location
    SW Mo
    Posts
    50

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Catch22 View Post
    While I'm all for drilling and using our own oil, it's my understanding that middle-east oil (Sweet crude I believe they call it) requires far less refining. Ours is almost sludge compared to that stuff.

    I think a bigger priority (at least from my viewpoint) is to start using the pumps out in Kansas, Oklahoma, Texas, and other places that are sitting idle. Build more refineries, as well, so that we can handle the ever-increasing demand instead of letting other countries refine it for us. If you want to start drilling in some isolated portion of a wildlife reserve or off the coast of Florida, go for it and get it ready for future issues.

    All the while, start looking at alternative energy that is efficient and cost-effective, not using a gallon of oil to turn corn into a gallon of gas that gets half the mileage.

    I'm with you but look at all the crap that has to be waded through to get a refinery going!! Cut back the governmental BS and let's get things going. But yeah, if we can get what we already have fired up while drilling for future expansion go right ahead. The notion of it taking 10-15 years to get a drilling site opened up and going is ludicrous.

    Alternative energy is good idea, however, my concern is what happens to our vehicles in 10,20, or 30 years down the road if there is "THE" new energy source? Will it be something that current vehicles can be retrofitted to use? Or will vehicles as we know them change?

    I did read something really interesting the other day on the natural production of oil. I can't remember where I read this, but there is a hypothesis that oil is not a "fossil" fuel but is a byproduct of chemical reactions that take place down near the earth's core. Haven't heard much about it, anybody else?

  14. #289
    Forum Member
    FireCapt1951retired's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2000
    Location
    Between here and there
    Posts
    790

    Default

    [QUOTE=Great post!!! Obama is a socialist through and through. Socialism is the one type of government that has proven time and again to fail. Wealth redistribution ala USSR, historic Germany, on and on and on. In most cases I don't care for government hand outs. There are some cases where people, through no fault of their own, have fallen on hard times and need a little help to bounce back. That's fine with me. Use the system's help once to get back on your feet, but not again.

    Does anybody remember both Hillary and Obama saying "I'm going to get Big Oil's money"??? Keep your friggin' hands out of there!!! We're already taxing the crap out of Big Oil and we wonder why gas is so high?! In Missouri I think total taxes on a gallon of gas is approx. $.45-.50/gallon. Seriously?! Does the government need THAT much $$$ off of oil? Big government should absolutely LOVE Big Oil!!! Instead the libs want to take more from Big Oil, yeah that'll lower price at the pump.[/QUOTE]





    It's not the first time this tactic will be used. Carter did it (oil windfall profits tax) in the 70's and it turned out to be a real freaking nightmare. Prices were not only driven upward but shortages were common (at least here they were). It was not uncommon for me to wait in a 1/2 mile line to get gas at the time and you could only purchase 10 gallons at a time. Then matters got even worse with an oil embargo (they can do it any time right now) by some of the present OPEC countries.

    Alternative energy is going to be neccessary but drilling is also going to be needed so we can provide for our own instead of sending billions over to countries who in reality are an enemy. The longer Congress waits to deal with this situation the worse it will get in the future. I see no reason or arguement that proves to me that we shouldn't be providing all of our own energy needs, be it through oil, natural gas and any other energy form that can be brought on line over time (except ethanol, which I belief to be a total joke). This should have been addressed over 25 - 30 years ago but so goes politics.

    As far as refineries, the government has made it very cumbersome to not only expand present refineries but to even build new ones. Here, Ashland Oil (only one left here out of over 20 refineries in 1979) wanted to expand its refinery operations to the tune of 1 billion dollars and had to fight the government B.S. for 10 years to get the permission and permits for the expansion.
    Last edited by FireLt1951; 08-08-2008 at 02:31 PM.

  15. #290
    the 4-1-4
    Jasper 45's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2002
    Location
    ...A great place, on a Great Lake
    Posts
    2,784

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by jsin925 View Post
    didn't benjamin franklin say that those who sacrifice liberty for security deserve neither.

    You can disagree with the policy all that you want, no problem with that.
    The fact is though, they are encouraging people to come and protest. There is no limiting of your ability to speak freely, none at all. People complain that it is a violation of privacy to have to go thru a metal detector, or a search as well.

    You can go to the convention and protest till you're blue in the face if you want. The conventions are still going to go on, which are all part of free speech. Are you trying to suggest that the Secret Service should not try to make the conventions as safe as possible? Is it a violation of your rights for them to protect the leaders of our country?

    Limiting free speech is when you can not express yourself. Free expression can not come at the expense of others, though. If your free speech endangers other people, it should be stopped.
    For some people, detonating an explosive could be a form of free speech. For others, it's burning a flag. If you burn that flag in a crowd, you are placing other people at risk, as is the explosive.

    It is a tough issue. However, allowing people to congregate in one spot to voice their opinion is no different than keeping protesters in a specific spot in front of the Whitehouse. People are still allowed to voice their opinion, protest, or express themselves freely. There is no infringement of anyones rights at the Democratic convention.

  16. #291
    Back In Black
    ChiefKN's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2003
    Location
    The Nice Part of New Jersey
    Posts
    6,981

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by jsin925 View Post
    the PATRIOT act gives the government the right to suspend all of your rights and take away your freedom if they feel like it.
    I'm just in awe of how uneducated you are... my friend, please stop posting.

    Your posts are so off base and your opinions are based in no reality.

    Someone else's turn here... please.
    I am now a past chief and the views, opinions, and comments are mine and mine alone. I do not speak for any department or in any official capacity. Although, they would be smart to listen to me.

    "The last thing I want to do is hurt you. But it's still on the list."

    "When tempted to fight fire with fire, remember that the Fire Department usually uses water."

  17. #292
    Forum Member

    Join Date
    Apr 2008
    Posts
    104

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by ChiefKN View Post
    I'm just in awe of how uneducated you are... my friend, please stop posting.

    Your posts are so off base and your opinions are based in no reality.

    Someone else's turn here... please.
    When the debate is over, slander becomes the tool of the loser.

  18. #293
    Forum Member

    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Posts
    111

    Default

    There wasn't any slander there.

    Besides, defamation of character in print (such as the internet) is liable, though these comments aren't liable either I'm afraid.

  19. #294
    Forum Member

    Join Date
    May 2001
    Location
    Greensboro, NC USA
    Posts
    1,311

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by ECCMac View Post
    Chevrolet Blazers (Tahoes) 1960's
    Chevrolet Suburban was in some form or another since the Depression
    Ford Bronco (Fullsize and II) 1960's
    Ford Explorer (replaced the Bronco II) in the Early 90's...during Slick Willies reign
    International Travel-all Prior to the 60's IIRC

    Sorry, bro...the rest of your post was spot on. The Mantra of US Automakers has always been...if they want it, we will build it.
    Thank you for reinforcing my point. I was being facetious.
    The American people will never knowingly adopt Socialism. But under the name of 'liberalism' they will adopt every fragment of the Socialist program, until one day America will be a Socialist nation, without knowing how it happened. --Norman Mattoon Thomas, 6 time presidential candidate for the Socialist Party of America

  20. #295
    Forum Member

    Join Date
    Apr 2008
    Posts
    104

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Tomcat1066 View Post
    There wasn't any slander there.

    Besides, defamation of character in print (such as the internet) is liable, though these comments aren't liable either I'm afraid.
    i believe you mean libel. anyway, i was just trying to be funny, because that was at the end of chiefkn's post.

  21. #296
    Forum Member

    Join Date
    Apr 2008
    Posts
    104

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by ChiefKN View Post
    I'm just in awe of how uneducated you are... my friend, please stop posting.

    Your posts are so off base and your opinions are based in no reality.

    Someone else's turn here... please.
    here's a link to an article from the american conservative that explains exactly what i said the PATRIOT act has the power to do and how it has been used (some years ago), so my opinion is based in reality: http://www.amconmag.com/05_19_03/cover.html

    are these guys nutjobs too? they are conservative after all.

  22. #297
    Back In Black
    ChiefKN's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2003
    Location
    The Nice Part of New Jersey
    Posts
    6,981

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by jsin925 View Post
    When the debate is over, slander becomes the tool of the loser.
    I realize that, and I usually do not insult people on forums... I'm not trying to, but I don't know how else to put it.

    You are so far out in left field and refuse to believe any mainstream source. You slander your own country and promote this Chavez...

    I just don't understand you.
    I am now a past chief and the views, opinions, and comments are mine and mine alone. I do not speak for any department or in any official capacity. Although, they would be smart to listen to me.

    "The last thing I want to do is hurt you. But it's still on the list."

    "When tempted to fight fire with fire, remember that the Fire Department usually uses water."

  23. #298
    Back In Black
    ChiefKN's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2003
    Location
    The Nice Part of New Jersey
    Posts
    6,981

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by jsin925 View Post
    here's a link to an article from the american conservative that explains exactly what i said the PATRIOT act has the power to do and how it has been used (some years ago), so my opinion is based in reality: http://www.amconmag.com/05_19_03/cover.html

    are these guys nutjobs too? they are conservative after all.
    Yes, they are.

    As pointed out by another post in this thread...show me the evidence about the big bad patriot act.
    I am now a past chief and the views, opinions, and comments are mine and mine alone. I do not speak for any department or in any official capacity. Although, they would be smart to listen to me.

    "The last thing I want to do is hurt you. But it's still on the list."

    "When tempted to fight fire with fire, remember that the Fire Department usually uses water."

  24. #299
    Forum Member

    Join Date
    Apr 2008
    Posts
    104

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by ChiefKN View Post
    I realize that, and I usually do not insult people on forums... I'm not trying to, but I don't know how else to put it.

    You are so far out in left field and refuse to believe any mainstream source. You slander your own country and promote this Chavez...

    I just don't understand you.
    i don't mean to promote chavez. i just don't see things the way you do. i'll admit he's no saint, a bit of an egomaniac, and a little over the top. all world leaders have blood on their hands. one can't lead a country and not.

    some of the best americans had harsh words for this place, like martin luther king, jr., and mark twain to name a couple.

    i just don't trust the mainstream media. bring murrow back and the goldwater conservatives, and then i would trust them a little more. not fully, just a little more.

    but please, don't hold your tongue for me, this is america.

  25. #300
    Forum Member

    Join Date
    Apr 2008
    Posts
    104

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by ChiefKN View Post
    Yes, they are.

    As pointed out by another post in this thread...show me the evidence about the big bad patriot act.
    you wouldn't believe it anyway, unless it was on fox news, cnn, or msnbc.

Thread Information

Users Browsing this Thread

There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)

Similar Threads

  1. FF safety/chicken BBQs
    By princessAJ in forum U.S. States
    Replies: 0
    Last Post: 04-23-2007, 12:57 PM
  2. Chicken Fry on Saturday 6-24
    By rustyknobbs in forum Illinois
    Replies: 0
    Last Post: 06-21-2006, 08:19 AM
  3. Subservient Chicken
    By EMTSteve in forum The Off Duty Forums
    Replies: 1
    Last Post: 04-09-2004, 02:22 PM
  4. Keithsburg FD Fish & Chicken Fry
    By emtbecka in forum Volunteer Forum
    Replies: 0
    Last Post: 05-30-2003, 09:13 AM
  5. August Fire Scenario #2: BBQ Chicken Anyone?
    By Dalmation90 in forum Fireground Tactics
    Replies: 16
    Last Post: 08-08-1999, 10:52 AM

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts

Log in

Click here to log in or register