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  1. #241
    the 4-1-4 Jasper 45's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jsin925 View Post
    he is no hitler or mussolini, but he may be a little like castro. he does give poor people here heating oil at a discounted rate. all a pr move, but he still does it.
    C'mon now. Don't even think of trying to portray Castro as a humanitarian, or a "leader for the people". If you do, we need to grab a beer and have you talk with a couple of local Cubans in the area.
    They will be more than happy to share their thoughts on Castro. In fact, they are more than happy to debunk any good thoughts anyone would have about any of the Castros.
    The stories they have are repulsive, completely repulsive. Their opinions also show why we need to keep the embargo going..

    He doesn't care about the poor, he doesn't take care of them, he keeps them oppressed and poor.


  2. #242
    the 4-1-4 Jasper 45's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dave1983 View Post
    None...YET. Today the act has only been used for, as far as is known to the public, for the war on terror. However, that is not its only limits. That is the problem.

    Dave, I realize the concern. The problem that I have is in trying to make us safer. I am not a technology wizard, nor do I work in Federal law enforcement. I am not now, nor have I ever been a conspiracy theorist. I do also believe that the government is trying to protect us here, in the United States.

    Any type of legislation needs to be adjusted and evaluated. And again, oversight is the key, to ensure that the law is being adhered to. I believe in being very proactive in pursuing terrorism, and there needs to be flexibility in being able to stay ahead of them.
    Maybe if I were smarter I could come up with a better solution, but I'm not. All I know is that you have to be alive in order to enjoy any type of freedom. I'm not advocating eliminating any freedoms, I'm just trying to talk about how we can keep people alive and enjoy our freedoms.





    Quote Originally Posted by Dave1983 View Post
    By the rest of your response, you didn't do the homework assignment. Shame on you. The other statute I mentioned has nothing to do with either terrorism or war, and it relates directly to law abiding, US citizens.

    I should have addressed the post better. I was only addressing the Patriot Act, but in looking back I wasn't clear about that. You have to cut me some slack though, my quarterback was just dealt to the Jets. My entire sports world has been turned upside down in the past several months.



    Quote Originally Posted by Dave1983 View Post
    Everyone needs to realize that the war on terror is the veil being used by the people currently in power to cover their actual agenda, which is of a much wider scope.
    Surely your intelligent enough to realize that.
    Again, I am not a big conspiracy theorist. History may prove me wrong, maybe it won't.
    It doesn't matter who is in office, someone will come up with far fetched idea about anyone in office.
    Last edited by jasper45; 08-07-2008 at 12:25 PM.

  3. #243
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tomcat1066 View Post
    Nice cop out. Then we'll assume you're just full of it. We can now disregard your ramblings about your plight as the BS they obviously are.
    please do. that's your right.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tomcat1066 View Post
    First, you need to define poor. The poor in this country are far better off any many places in the world. And, is it their fault if they're poor? Depends on the person. If they were born with limited mental capacity, then probably not. Same can be true of physical capacity. However, if they are of average intelligence, physically sound, and are poor, then it's been their decisions that have led them there.
    do you know any poor people?

    Quote Originally Posted by Tomcat1066 View Post
    Is it a bad thing? Not if it's their choice. But, ultimately, it is up to them to fix it if they're unhappy. Not the government.
    where did i say that is was the responsibility of the government?

    Quote Originally Posted by Tomcat1066 View Post
    And I dare you to find one post where I say that's OK. Corporations should thrive of fail on their own. Period.
    i never said you did. i was just pointing out forms of socialism in our society.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tomcat1066 View Post
    What makes you think I don't know this? What makes you think I agree with universal healthcare?
    the majority of the western industrialized world does, but i never said you did.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tomcat1066 View Post
    Yes, they are. And look at the crappy job they do of educating people. Your own lack of writing skills should be example enough
    you're being presumptuous again, and assuming i went to public school. i don't see any problems with my writing skills. i don't capitalize letters out of laziness. let's look at some of your writing skills from your previous post: "The poor in this country are far better off any many places in the world." "Corporations should thrive of fail on their own. Period." period is not a sentence. there should be a comma between own and period to point out just one mistake. but you know, i really don't care about your writing skills.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tomcat1066 View Post
    Right. Even though one thing that is the government's responsibility is public safety.
    why not leave it up to the free market, have different fire depts, and let the people choose which one is doing the better job? blackwater can have a stab at that too.

    does public safety include aiding people after a hurricane? bush thinks fema should be privatized.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tomcat1066 View Post
    How presumptuous of you to expect me to be a freaking mind reader. Why then, did a coffee roaster, pay for you to travel out of country on this little trip? Inquiring minds want to know.
    you're the one who jumped to conclusions, not me. does it matter why they paid for it?

    Quote Originally Posted by Tomcat1066 View Post
    Really? That's funny, because you seem to think of him as a socialist when in fact he was actually against government involvement in the free market economy, believing that the free market economy (not that "fair market" BS you've been running on about) lead to political and social freedom.

    Maybe it's time to reread? It sounds like you're thinking Keynes instead.
    that's funny, i don't remember ever including him in on have anything to do with a fair market economy, only pinochet's. i do believe he was pinochet's economic advisor, and his government was soooo free.

  4. #244
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    Quote Originally Posted by jasper45 View Post
    C'mon now. Don't even think of trying to portray Castro as a humanitarian, or a "leader for the people". If you do, we need to grab a beer and have you talk with a couple of local Cubans in the area.
    They will be more than happy to share their thoughts on Castro. In fact, they are more than happy to debunk any good thoughts anyone would have about any of the Castros.
    The stories they have are repulsive, completely repulsive. Their opinions also show why we need to keep the embargo going..

    He doesn't care about the poor, he doesn't take care of them, he keeps them oppressed and poor.
    i don't believe i was portraying castro as a humanitarian. i don't even think i said chavez was a humanitarian. castro is a dictator, where chavez was democratically elected. both have nationalized things in there country, but chavez hasn't done it to everything like castro. castro does send doctors to third word nations, and americans can go to medical school there for free under some certain program. a local lady is doing it, otherwise she wouldn't have been able to afford med school. cuba does have a higher literacy rate than america too. it may all be pr, but he does it.

    i'm quite aware of castro killing dissidents, and other horrors. he's no saint by any means.

  5. #245
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    Quote Originally Posted by jsin925 View Post
    do you know any poor people?
    Yep. Lots of them. And, universally, it has been their decisions that led them there. Some are OK with their lot in life, since they're happy with it. Others want to blame everyone but themselves. Go figure.



    where did i say that is was the responsibility of the government?
    By espousing ideas that socialism is better, that free market economy is responsible for keep the poor downtrodden, you're advocating a change in the economics of this country. That can only happen with government intervention.



    never said you did. i was just pointing out forms of socialism in our society.
    So what? Did I say it didn't exist in our society?

    the majority of the western industrialized world does, but i never said you did.
    Again, so what? What point does this have with the discussion?

    you're being presumptuous again, and assuming i went to public school.
    But in most states, if not all, the requirements for even private education is laid out by the public school systems in those states. Even if you received private education, it was still mandated to meet certain forms by socialized education. The same is true of homeschooling.

    On some level, we're all public school educated.

    i don't see any problems with my writing skills. i don't capitalize letters out of laziness. let's look at some of your writing skills from your previous post: "The poor in this country are far better off any many places in the world." "Corporations should thrive of fail on their own. Period." period is not a sentence. there should be a comma between own and period to point out just one mistake. but you know, i really don't care about your writing skills.
    Oh, so it's laziness? Sure. Whatever. I make typos, because I'm human (the "any" should have been "than"). My "." before the word "Period" was intentional. I wanted more of a pause than a comma uses. But you knew that, didn't you there skippy?

    why not leave it up to the free market, have different fire depts, and let the people choose which one is doing the better job? blackwater can have a stab at that too.
    Why don't you answer the questions that have been asked of you before you make up ridiculous examples of hypothetical situations?

    But I'll play the game. Simple. There is insufficient profit for companies to wish to enter the game. Volunteer companies that are quite wealthy are tax free organizations usually that can get donations, as well as receive tax dollars. So even though some of these have, in the past, shown an extremely high excess of cash flow, that wouldn't happen with a for profit company. As such, it's not lucrative enough.

    However, some parts of the fire service, notably EMS, are privatized in many areas, and with great success.

    One important thing to note is that this discussion has been about national level economics. Fire departments are, on the whole, financed by local governments. Please, let's try and return to the subject at hand.

    does public safety include aiding people after a hurricane? bush thinks fema should be privatized.
    Post hurricane clean up may or may not be public safety. However, it could easily be argued that nothing in the US Constitution supports the idea that FEMA should even exist.

    you're the one who jumped to conclusions, not me. does it matter why they paid for it?
    It matters only for one reason. I believe that everything you've posted in this thread is bull$h!t. Your evasion of every pointed question has led me and apparently others here to believe that you've made up every detail about yourself in this thread.

    that's funny, i don't remember ever including him in on have anything to do with a fair market economy, only pinochet's. i do believe he was pinochet's economic advisor, and his government was soooo free.
    And yet you thought the Marx quote could have come from him? Pinochet was a piece of crap. No arguments there. So have some of the US Presidents. Hitler considered himself a socialist. So what? Past dictators who used one form of economics over another are irrelevant to the discussion.

    You still won't answer questions that have been asked time and time again. You evade every question about your "experience", and think you can speak with some authority.

    Sure...the same authority as anyone else who's trying to make me laugh.

  6. #246
    Forum Member jlcooke3's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jsin925 View Post
    because i mention people you all jump to the assumption that i think this person is a great guy. chavez was democratically elected. last election there were people there to make sure everything was on the up and up, and they declared that the election was kosher. he respected the votes of the people when they voted down his last referendum. what dictator does that? i don't believe what the state dept says about him, considering the cia was in on the coup attempt in 2002, and continue to fund his opposition. he is no hitler or mussolini, but he may be a little like castro. he does give poor people here heating oil at a discounted rate. all a pr move, but he still does it.
    You do know that Hitler was elected by the people of Germany don't you? Getting elected by the people doesn't make you tyrannical dictator, shooting people in the back of the head for disagreeing with you does. I've read through most of your whining socialistic ramblings and find them drole. You need to do your homework on what works. Your idea on economics is socialistic/communistic. Fair is word made up by those that can't or won't do what needs to be done to succeed. Have you ever heard of a fair fight? I have, its the one's I win. Government intervention in the business world for economic reasons is almost all ways a bad idea. A free market economy is regulated by the consumer not the government and not businesses. A consumer run economy will force companies to produce high quality less expensive goods, don't believe me look at the auto industry. In the 1980's when the big 3 were producing crap the Japanese were producing high quality cars that were less expensive, care to guess which ones Americans were buying? The competition forced the American automakers to offer better quality at a better price and they did. Their current problems is as much a problem of interference as it is anything. Special interest groups (unions) have forced the automakers into loosing money. Also you need to define poor, if you are using income then it differs throughout the U.S. but even the poorest person in the U.S. is better off than being in some third world ****hole where your life isn't worth one red cent. The poorest of our country can receive free food in almost any city in the U.S., they can go to any hospital and receive medical care, they are protected under the same laws that protect the "rich", and they have the ability to elevate their position if they choose to do so. Our country offers free education and social services to those "less fortunate" so that they may raise their position in life. Don't feed me a line about being poor in this country, being poor is almost (not entirely) a choice, it is not fate.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tomcat1066 View Post
    It matters only for one reason. I believe that everything you've posted in this thread is bull$h!t. Your evasion of every pointed question has led me and apparently others here to believe that you've made up every detail about yourself in this thread.
    good. then let's not discuss me any more.

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    Quote Originally Posted by jsin925 View Post
    good. then let's not discuss me any more.

    Nope. Let's.

    After all, you brought it up. As my son and his friends say "No take backs!"

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    OK, I've thought about it a bit longer and figure, what the heck. I can be charitable and all that.

    However, in return for not discussing "you", you have to not bring up your "experiences" that you feel the need to share unless you're ready to discuss "you". If you bring up "you" and your life experiences again, then it's open season

    After all, every question about you has been posted as a response to something that you chose to share about yourself. Your experiences being used as an example of how your point is correct. However, when questioned further, you clam up. So, if you don't want people asking questions about yourself, then you should probably clam up a good bit sooner.

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    Quote Originally Posted by jlcooke3 View Post
    You do know that Hitler was elected by the people of Germany don't you? Getting elected by the people doesn't make you tyrannical dictator, shooting people in the back of the head for disagreeing with you does. I've read through most of your whining socialistic ramblings and find them drole. You need to do your homework on what works. Your idea on economics is socialistic/communistic. Fair is word made up by those that can't or won't do what needs to be done to succeed. Have you ever heard of a fair fight? I have, its the one's I win. Government intervention in the business world for economic reasons is almost all ways a bad idea. A free market economy is regulated by the consumer not the government and not businesses. A consumer run economy will force companies to produce high quality less expensive goods, don't believe me look at the auto industry. In the 1980's when the big 3 were producing crap the Japanese were producing high quality cars that were less expensive, care to guess which ones Americans were buying? The competition forced the American automakers to offer better quality at a better price and they did. Their current problems is as much a problem of interference as it is anything. Special interest groups (unions) have forced the automakers into loosing money. Also you need to define poor, if you are using income then it differs throughout the U.S. but even the poorest person in the U.S. is better off than being in some third world ****hole where your life isn't worth one red cent. The poorest of our country can receive free food in almost any city in the U.S., they can go to any hospital and receive medical care, they are protected under the same laws that protect the "rich", and they have the ability to elevate their position if they choose to do so. Our country offers free education and social services to those "less fortunate" so that they may raise their position in life. Don't feed me a line about being poor in this country, being poor is almost (not entirely) a choice, it is not fate.
    our government is the corporations. are you anti-union? i never said this country should become a socialist state. where did i say that? i gave an example of fair trade coffee as a way that capitalism can work with fair market prices. the coffee roaster i spoke of is quite successful, and has done what it takes to succeed. they are the starbucks of my town. when i think free market i think nafta, cafta, etc. all in my opinion are bad programs. maybe i should be saying free trade instead. and for democrat haters nafta was bill clinton's plan. can't get mad at the gas prices then because that's the free market and capitalism. the government shouldn't intervene because that would be bad. why should bp, shell, mobile, etc, be fair to the consumer? they're raking in billion dollar profits, and that's what it takes to be successful, right?

    the majority of poor people are children. children are innocent.

    i'm no christian, but i do believe that what you do to the least of my brethren you do unto me. but then again i guess jesus was more of a socialist.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tomcat1066 View Post
    OK, I've thought about it a bit longer and figure, what the heck. I can be charitable and all that.

    However, in return for not discussing "you", you have to not bring up your "experiences" that you feel the need to share unless you're ready to discuss "you". If you bring up "you" and your life experiences again, then it's open season

    After all, every question about you has been posted as a response to something that you chose to share about yourself. Your experiences being used as an example of how your point is correct. However, when questioned further, you clam up. So, if you don't want people asking questions about yourself, then you should probably clam up a good bit sooner.
    fair enough. wait did i use the word fair? and, i never said i was correct, i just like to debate and see if someone can crush my argument. how else does one learn. i've been wrong about a lot of things in my life. a real man can admit when he's wrong. i'm not admitting to anything yet though.

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    Quote Originally Posted by jsin925 View Post
    fair enough. wait did i use the word fair? and, i never said i was correct, i just like to debate and see if someone can crush my argument. how else does one learn. i've been wrong about a lot of things in my life. a real man can admit when he's wrong. i'm not admitting to anything yet though.
    Hey, not a problem. However, you believe you are correct, right? I believe I'm correct. In truth, we might both be wrong.

    My point about the questions was that you brought it up to support your position, then refused to answer further questions, the answers of which would help our understanding of your position.

    But whatever. We have a deal then, correct?

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    Forum Member scfire86's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ScareCrow57 View Post
    What is interesting is that the poor areas are republican and the wealthy areas are democratic. That alone says something.
    CA has both. I live and work in Orange County. A very republican area and very wealthy. Up north is San Francisco. Also a very wealthy area and democratic.

    What's your point?
    Politics is like driving. To go forward select "D", to go backward select "R."

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tomcat1066 View Post
    Hey, not a problem. However, you believe you are correct, right? I believe I'm correct. In truth, we might both be wrong.

    My point about the questions was that you brought it up to support your position, then refused to answer further questions, the answers of which would help our understanding of your position.

    But whatever. We have a deal then, correct?

    i can concede to your points, and yes, we have a deal.

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    Back In Black ChiefKN's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dave1983 View Post
    Everyone needs to realize that the war on terror is the veil being used by the people currently in power to cover their actual agenda, which is of a much wider scope.
    Do you hear the black helicopters too?
    I am now a past chief and the views, opinions, and comments are mine and mine alone. I do not speak for any department or in any official capacity. Although, they would be smart to listen to me.

    "The last thing I want to do is hurt you. But it's still on the list."

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  16. #256
    Back In Black ChiefKN's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jsin925 View Post
    chavez was democratically elected. last election there were people there to make sure everything was on the up and up, and they declared that the election was kosher. he respected the votes of the people when they voted down his last referendum. what dictator does that?
    Are you really that naive? Do you not keep up with current events?

    http://www.usnews.com/usnews/opinion.../mb_040820.htm

    Chavez resisted the recall at every turn and used every dirty trick in the book, including granting citizenship to half a million illegal aliens and migrating people away from the polling places.

    As for Carter's review, he only visited the the main polling center and then left. There are many who questioned Carter's methods.

    After the referendum failed, Chavez's government then charged the group who pushed for the referendum with treason and conspiracy for receiving funds from the US that were used for voter education.

    He has gone out of his way to reverse any democratic trends. Please do a little reading on this guy. He's scum.


    Quote Originally Posted by jsin925 View Post
    i don't believe what the state dept says about him, considering the cia was in on the coup attempt in 2002, and continue to fund his opposition. he is no hitler or mussolini, but he may be a little like castro. he does give poor people here heating oil at a discounted rate. all a pr move, but he still does it.
    LOL, he's a peach.

    http://meganmcardle.theatlantic.com/...p_the_poor.php

    Great website from a native Venezualan

    http://vcrisis.com/index.php?content=home

    Quote Originally Posted by jsin925 View Post
    we violate human rights, extraordinary rendition for example, and we kill innocent people. we are no saints.
    Amnesty International report... you don't like your own country's state department, then how about this liberal group?

    http://www.amnesty.org/en/region/ame...nezuela#report


    Quote Originally Posted by jsin925 View Post
    i don't care about the single mother rate in norway. being a single mother isn't an evil to me.
    That sound was my point flying over your head. Did your Master's degree come with a free bowl of soup?
    I am now a past chief and the views, opinions, and comments are mine and mine alone. I do not speak for any department or in any official capacity. Although, they would be smart to listen to me.

    "The last thing I want to do is hurt you. But it's still on the list."

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    Quote Originally Posted by ChiefKN View Post
    Are you really that naive? Do you not keep up with current events?

    http://www.usnews.com/usnews/opinion.../mb_040820.htm

    Chavez resisted the recall at every turn and used every dirty trick in the book, including granting citizenship to half a million illegal aliens and migrating people away from the polling places.

    As for Carter's review, he only visited the the main polling center and then left. There are many who questioned Carter's methods.

    After the referendum failed, Chavez's government then charged the group who pushed for the referendum with treason and conspiracy for receiving funds from the US that were used for voter education.

    He has gone out of his way to reverse any democratic trends. Please do a little reading on this guy. He's scum.

    LOL, he's a peach.

    http://meganmcardle.theatlantic.com/...p_the_poor.php

    Great website from a native Venezualan

    http://vcrisis.com/index.php?content=home

    Amnesty International report... you don't like your own country's state department, then how about this liberal group?

    http://www.amnesty.org/en/region/ame...nezuela#report

    That sound was my point flying over your head. Did your Master's degree come with a free bowl of soup?
    here are articles to refute yours, but you'll dismiss them as nutball.

    http://www.informationclearinghouse....ticle18836.htm

    http://www.informationclearinghouse....ticle18727.htm

    http://www.informationclearinghouse....ticle19762.htm

    http://www.informationclearinghouse....ticle18838.htm

    i bet you won't read them because you are not open to information that doesn't fit your paradigm.

  18. #258
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    Quote Originally Posted by jsin925 View Post
    our government is the corporations.
    Not hardly our government just happens to be a political entity whose leaders (of all parties) are all tied to businesses. are you anti-union?Nope and yes. I'm all for unions that desire to create a safer working enviroment and a liveable wage. I'm against any union that will steadfastly bleed a company dry. It is these unions who have caused many businesses to pack up and move oversees. i never said this country should become a socialist state. where did i say that?You have not said it outright but your thoughts have conveyed that message. i gave an example of fair trade coffee as a way that capitalism can work with fair market prices. the coffee roaster i spoke of is quite successful, and has done what it takes to succeed. they are the starbucks of my town. when i think free market i think nafta, cafta, etc. all in my opinion are bad programs. maybe i should be saying free trade instead. and for democrat haters nafta was bill clinton's plan. can't get mad at the gas prices then because that's the free market and capitalism. the government shouldn't intervene because that would be bad. why should bp, shell, mobile, etc, be fair to the consumer? they're raking in billion dollar profits, and that's what it takes to be successful, right?
    Know your terms fair trade and fair market are two different things. Free trade agreements are not fair trade agreements. The free trade agreements essientially means that their are no tariffs on products imported from the member countries. That's a bit simplistic but essientially true. Fair trade is no matter how you cut is socialistic economics.
    the majority of poor people are children. No ****. Children can't own property or work of course they are poor, they have no wealth. If you mean that kids are the most affected by poverty or it could mean that the poor people breed more than rich people. I've seen evidence of this as has many others the poorest sections of the city has households with the most children, why? Cause screwing is easier than getting a job or getting an education or otherwise bettering yourself. Stereotypical, probably but I don't care. Sugar coated howerever you want history proves me out. The lower classes have throughtout history bred more than the upper class.children are innocent.Innocent has nothing to do with it.

    i'm no christian, but i do believe that what you do to the least of my brethren you do unto me. but then again i guess jesus was more of a socialist.
    Nope not a socialist. A savior that required those who wanted to get to heaven to work through him. It takes personal responsibility and hard work to get there. Hmmm...hard work, personal responsibility, goals...nope doesn't have a thing to do with socialism.

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    Quote Originally Posted by jasper45 View Post
    You have to cut me some slack though, my quarterback was just dealt to the Jets. My entire sports world has been turned upside down in the past several months.
    Thats certainly understandable. Especially since we all thought he was coming down here.
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  20. #260
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    Quote Originally Posted by ChiefKN View Post
    Do you hear the black helicopters too?
    I'm sorry to hear you have your head buried in the sand as well.
    Last edited by Dave1983; 08-07-2008 at 06:11 PM.
    Fire Marshal/Safety Officer

    IAAI-NFPA-IAFC/VCOS-Retired IAFF

    "No his mind is not for rent, to any god or government"
    RUSH-Tom Sawyer

    Success is when skill meets opportunity
    Failure is when fantasy meets reality

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