1. #576
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    Quote Originally Posted by scfire86 View Post
    You believe that pricing isn't affected by the subsidies you believe the oil companies should receive?

    I receive a tax break. Which I agree is an indirect subsidy. But I have to earn the money in order to qualify. In the case of the oil companies, they are given direct subsidies irrespective of their earnings.

    Which is a socialist concept. I've been called that and worse on these boards in a derogatory manner. But I guess it's okay if it benefits a group that you approve.
    You can play these games with words all you want.

    Calling subsidies to oil companies a socialist concept is stretching the definition and meaning of the concept pretty far. But so be it, call it what you will. Makes no difference to me.
    I am now a past chief and the views, opinions, and comments are mine and mine alone. I do not speak for any department or in any official capacity. Although, they would be smart to listen to me.

    "The last thing I want to do is hurt you. But it's still on the list."

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    Quote Originally Posted by scfire86 View Post
    Then how does an economy work o wise one?
    You'll have to be more specific. There are several different types of economies.
    Quote Originally Posted by scfire86 View Post
    You or George have yet to prove it had any impact. There is not one commodities broker who deals in oil futures claiming it to be related.
    Why would they admit that their prices are based solely on the concept of selling it at a higher price? That would be akin to a player/referee admitting to points shaving, and it would provide the spark for public opinion to rail against them (even more so than it already has).

    The benefit of owning an oil future is only realized when it's sold at a higher price. If the price falls, the owner of a future loses money (or opportunity cost, if they actually intended to use the oil for something). No different than owning a stock that will never pay a dividend. They only way one profits from owning that stock is to sell it at a higher price. It is in their best interests to bid up the price, even if you don't intend to buy anymore of it.

    And since I had already posted a report showing that 71% of the oil futures market was held by speculators, it proves that the vast majority of that market lives and dies based on tomorrow's price. If tomorrow's rises, then the speculator eats steak, if it falls he has bologna.

    An investment report by Bernstein Global Wealth Management explains it in detail. On Page 15, ...our research indicates that investors’ large-scale buying of oil futures may be artificially propping up the price of crude in the spot market.

    And they go on (page 16) to explain what happens if expectations fall: But what would happen if investors’ fascination with crude oil futures were to wane, perhaps as a by-product of that forbidding negative roll return? Passive investment in commodity futures index funds might start to dry up, pressing crude oil prices downward.

    That’s the way traders work. They discount the future. Psychology and expectations can turn on a dime. President Bush's announcement to lift the ban changed their attitudes and the results were seen with the price falling by 6.3% on the very day of his announcement. Steven Milloy gets it.

    Plus George & I have timing on our side. The price fell within hours of Bush's announcement. Our Economy didn't slow down overnight. The American people didn't collaborate to suddenly start driving less on July 13th, or any day before that. What other event can you put an exact date on that coincides with the July 14th price drop?

    And your "10-years to production" song & dance is busted. Some reports show that we could have oil from California in less than a year. Because there the oil is in shallow water, and drilling platforms have been there since before the moratorium was instituted.
    Quote Originally Posted by ChiefKN View Post
    If people can't afford goods, they don't buy them and the market adjusts.

    It's how an economy works.
    I think he ignored the idea that if people can't buy goods, then the price of those goods will fall. These things cycle back and forth.
    Quote Originally Posted by scfire86 View Post
    You believe that pricing isn't affected by the subsidies you believe the oil companies should receive?

    I receive a tax break. Which I agree is an indirect subsidy. But I have to earn the money in order to qualify. In the case of the oil companies, they are given direct subsidies irrespective of their earnings.

    Which is a socialist concept. I've been called that and worse on these boards in a derogatory manner. But I guess it's okay if it benefits a group that you approve.
    A tax break is a subsidy, the Government looses the opportunity to take in taxes, and allows said person/firm to keep the money. I don't approve of it for oil companies. But you use it as justification to prohibit anymore drilling. I agree with you, on halting the subsidies. But there is no logical reason to halt new drilling, based on the fact that they receive existing subsidies.
    Last edited by txgp17; 08-30-2008 at 03:40 PM.
    The American people will never knowingly adopt Socialism. But under the name of 'liberalism' they will adopt every fragment of the Socialist program, until one day America will be a Socialist nation, without knowing how it happened. --Norman Mattoon Thomas, 6 time presidential candidate for the Socialist Party of America

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    Quote Originally Posted by ChiefKN View Post

    Calling subsidies to oil companies a socialist concept is stretching the definition and meaning of the concept pretty far.
    No its not. Its just plain old lying.
    PROUD, HONORED AND HUMBLED RECIPIENT OF THE PURPLE HYDRANT AWARD - 10/2007.

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    Actually THNozzleman, crude or unrefined oil is not actually toxic or poisonous. Its sure as heck not good for the environment but it is a natural product, (keep in perspective, we're basically burning 100 million year old dinosaur sh*t) It does affect the environment by smothering both flaura and fauna. It biodegrades quite quickly and if you would like, fly to Valdez and see Prince William sound. You would never know there had been a spill. That being said, I still support 100% alternate energy sources, but with an injection of realism. Wind, solar, hydro, just won't ever do it.



    Quote Originally Posted by ThNozzleman View Post
    Riiiiight...just drill here, there and everywhere, and watch those prices at the pump fall. Why, we should just drill a hole every ten feet all over every wildlife refuge in the world. Screw the animals and the environment. Exxon still hasn't paid for the 1989 Valdez incident that is still poisoning the land and ocean...and that's not even close to the size of numerous other spills. I'll bet those compassionate oil companies will have the price of gasoline back down to 65 cents a gallon in no time! Hell, let's just pay for it ourselves...to hell with the "free market" you guys rant about all the time. Let's just give them billions of our taxpayer dollars so they can continue to get filthy rich raping the earth for a buck. No need for regulation...these guys always have the best interests of the little guy at heart! I mean, Exxon Mobile only raked in a mere 15 billion this quarter. Surely we can help out these struggling companies a little, right? I mean, why invest one thin dime in alternative energy sources; the oil will last forever!

    If you think the price-fixing son of a bitches that run the oil companies are going to lower their prices after we pay through the nose for them to drill all those holes you want, you're crazier than I thought you were.

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    Just as a totally bit of irrelevant information, I believe that term horsehockey originted on the Canadian Prairies as kids would use frozen horse turds as hockey pucks on the frozen sloughs to use play hockey. Them prairies did produce a few fairly decent lads on the rink. I would gues the original "old man of hockey" the great Gordie howe has slapshotted a few horese turds in his time




    Quote Originally Posted by jsin925 View Post
    thanks for watching, and your opinion. i still don't trust it. by the way, i was really digging the word horsehockey. that's a new one for me.

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    Quote Originally Posted by GeorgeWendtCFI View Post
    No its not. Its just plain old lying.
    Then what is it? It certainly isn't capitalism.
    Politics is like driving. To go forward select "D", to go backward select "R."

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    Quote Originally Posted by scfire86 View Post
    Then what is it? It certainly isn't capitalism.
    I'll say it again. It's lying.
    PROUD, HONORED AND HUMBLED RECIPIENT OF THE PURPLE HYDRANT AWARD - 10/2007.

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    Quote Originally Posted by jsin925 View Post
    thanks for watching, and your opinion. i still don't trust it. by the way, i was really digging the word horsehockey. that's a new one for me.
    Try watching MASH, the ones with Sherman T Potter in them youngster.

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    Quote Originally Posted by GeorgeWendtCFI View Post
    I'll say it again. It's lying.
    What's lying? You claiming to know something?
    Politics is like driving. To go forward select "D", to go backward select "R."

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    Unless I'm mistaken, I believe the quotation comes from Karl Marx. We all know how well that little governance experiment worked.




    Quote Originally Posted by jsin925 View Post
    it's also the same economy that put pinochet in power, and the reason why south america is moving away from it. what's good for the goose isn't always good for the gander. brazil and venezeula have paid off their national debt. can america say the same?



    have you ever bought fair trade coffee, or chocolate? no socialism involved, all capitalism.



    if i apply for jobs in my field where i live, there are obviously jobs in my field where i live. my point is that the economy sucks right now. it's more about who you know and not what you know (in the private sector). i have a friend who has an mba and he can't find a full time job. he works three part-time jobs, one delivering subs. regardless of what my major was, the answer you all would give would be to move. if it were that easy, don't you think i would have done that. i have a son who is type 1 diabetic so my wife and i can't go anytime without health insurance. you all want to be judgemental, and offer up tough love solutions.



    listen, i've applied to other jobs outside of the field i've studied in, like the fire dept. being a firefighter was always one of my dreams as a kid, and i had a lot of dreams that i have tried to attain. i don't have a defeatist attitude and i believe i can make it here, where i live.



    well, i do have the education i claim (with great references too), and i am having trouble finding a job (in the private sector) in the field i studied regardless of what you believe. i teach in my field and i am totally aware of the pitfalls and setbacks that come with it. i just can't believe how judgemental you all are. a guy is having trouble finding a job and it's my fault. i'm not against moving, if i have a job lined up. otherwise moving would be stupid.



    not at all. it could be from hilter or milton friedman. that's why i said it sounds good, because i have no idea of its origin. please enlighten me. do you know the origin of judge not lest ye be judged?

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    Now theres a couple of examples of truly manly sports. Should be in the same league as cockfighting and pit bulls.


    Quote Originally Posted by jsin925 View Post
    i think favre is being a hypocrite. he talked so much trash about sterling sharpe, now look at what he's doing. that's why i only truly follow boxing and mma.

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    Actually the drilling industry has got quite an enviable record as far as environmental impact goes. A great deal of the spills and environmental damage occur through transportation and production.


    Quote Originally Posted by doughesson View Post
    Where does it say that firearms may only be owned for sport?
    Back on subject,this morning,Nancy was quoted on Fox about how she'd support debating drilling if it included a broad range of topics.
    Most likely she wants to insure that spills are harshly punished and those that spill or harm the environment are slammed as well.
    Maybe she needs to go out on a drill rig and try to explain to the people working there how to do their jobs.I wonder how that would be received:as help or an insult?
    If she thinks that drill crews don't know how to do their jobs without tearing up the planet,maybe she shouldn't run for re-election but instead open a school where she can teach oil companies how they should be accomplishing their mission statement.

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    Any word yet on the massive oil spills in the Gulf of Mexico due to the hurricane?
    PROUD, HONORED AND HUMBLED RECIPIENT OF THE PURPLE HYDRANT AWARD - 10/2007.

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    No,but it will be reflected in your next fueling. T.C.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rescue101 View Post
    No,but it will be reflected in your next fueling. T.C.

    Think so? Oil is going down in price...not up.

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    Exclamation

    Unfit To Lead On Oil
    Congress: If anyone still thinks Democrats can provide
    leadership on the No. 1 issue of the day—energy—
    then Harry Reid’s remarks to their party’s convention
    last week should dispel the notion for good.


    Last month’s invasion by Russia of neighboring Georgia showed the utter bankruptcy of the Democrats’ energy policies. With its attack, Russia seized control of the main non-Russian pipeline from the energy-rich Caspian to Europe, giving it stranglehold over nearly a third of Europe’s energy supplies.
    So what do the Democrats have to do with this? Plenty. By refusing to let companies drill for energy on U.S. soil and pursuing policies that keep oil prices above $100 a barrel, the Democratic Congress, in effect, is helping Russia to finance its aggression against Europe—a kind of Marshall Plan in reverse.
    Yet, listening to Reid, you’d never suspect this was the case. Start with his defense of Jimmy Carter as an energy prophet who proposed real solutions conservation, fuel efficiency and alternative fuels to what he correctly named the ‘moral equivalent of war.’ ” Remember soaring oil prices? Gas lines? Rationing? Russia’s invasion of Afghanistan? If so, you know Carter lost his “war.” The Senate’s Democratic leader also lamented“ an era of oil industry dominance” that began in 1980. Funny, but oil prices plunged 60% during Reagan’s time in office. That’s “dominance”?

    Nevada’s Reid then claims President Bush slept as “oil shortages worsened, oil prices soared and dollars by the ton were delivered to terrorists’ banks in Iran, Saudi Arabia and Venezuela.” Wrong. That’s what Congress did refusing to drill for more oil as petro tyrants like Putin threaten America’s national security and its allies. It’s a shameful, dishonest policy. “The simple fact,” Reid stumbles on, “is that the promise of more oil isn’t part of the solution; it’s part of the problem.”
    Actually, the “simple fact” is more oil is the solution. Private and government estimates all agree oil will make up 75% to 80% of our energy needs for the next 50 years at least. To refuse to drill for the 136 billion barrels we have available borders on criminal. More oil means lower prices. If we can get oil down to $80 a barrel or so it will work like a huge tax cut, especially for the poor who’ve been hit hardest by the Democrats’ failed energy policies. Lower oil prices will stimulate the economy, weaken inflation and make us and our allies around the world more secure. Reid’s poisonous words do nothing to move the country forward.

    But they do give voters an idea of what’s to come if Democrats keep
    Congress and win the White House.

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    Hammer,MAY be so but I've yet to see much relief at the pump and my rigs are there just about EVERY day.And big oil will use ANY excuse they can to keep those record windfalls up.And I go thru enough fuel a week to be QUITE cognizant of price. T.C.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Raughammer1 View Post
    So what do the Democrats have to do with this? Plenty. By refusing to let companies drill for energy on U.S. soil and pursuing policies that keep oil prices above $100 a barrel, the Democratic Congress, in effect, is helping Russia to finance its aggression against Europe—a kind of Marshall Plan in reverse.
    No one has yet to show me where the oil companies have been prevented from drilling in a place they believed had oil in such a quantity that it would be profitable. The only place that comes to mind was off the coast of FL when then they had the envior wacko governor Jeb Bush.

    Quote Originally Posted by Raughammer1 View Post
    Wrong. That’s what Congress did refusing to drill for more oil as petro tyrants like Putin threaten America’s national security and its allies. It’s a shameful, dishonest policy. “The simple fact,” Reid stumbles on, “is that the promise of more oil isn’t part of the solution; it’s part of the problem.”
    This is pretty darn funny. Congress was controlled by the GOP for six of the last eight years and yet it is the Dems fault. Drilling isn't the answer for the simple fact that it will not even come close to being the solution to our needs as they relate to oil imports. Just because one sinks a well doesn't guarantee one will find oil. I would think someone from TX would know that.
    Politics is like driving. To go forward select "D", to go backward select "R."

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    Quote Originally Posted by Raughammer1 View Post
    Think so? Oil is going down in price...not up.
    As I pointed out to George. The price of oil is roughly 50% higher than it was a year ago. I guess that makes it okay since it is cheaper than it was a couple of months ago.

    Big picture Hammer.
    Politics is like driving. To go forward select "D", to go backward select "R."

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    Quote Originally Posted by scfire86 View Post
    As I pointed out to George. The price of oil is roughly 50% higher than it was a year ago. I guess that makes it okay since it is cheaper than it was a couple of months ago.

    Big picture Hammer.
    Typical lib distortion. I said it was on the way down. I NEVER said that it was OK because it was not as high as it was or that it was not going to go down further. It will.

    BTW, all you "Big Oil" parrots. How much money should a corporation be allowed to make before the government punishes it by taking it away?
    PROUD, HONORED AND HUMBLED RECIPIENT OF THE PURPLE HYDRANT AWARD - 10/2007.

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    Quote Originally Posted by GeorgeWendtCFI View Post
    BTW, all you "Big Oil" parrots. How much money should a corporation be allowed to make before the government punishes it by taking it away?
    You'll have to ask Sarah Palin. She's the only one whose managed to a pass windfall profits tax on oil.
    Politics is like driving. To go forward select "D", to go backward select "R."

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    I dunno George,you worth a hunnert mill a year or so? T.C.

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    Quote Originally Posted by scfire86 View Post
    You'll have to ask Sarah Palin. She's the only one whose managed to a pass windfall profits tax on oil.
    Gutless response.
    PROUD, HONORED AND HUMBLED RECIPIENT OF THE PURPLE HYDRANT AWARD - 10/2007.

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    Quote Originally Posted by GeorgeWendtCFI View Post
    Typical lib distortion. I said it was on the way down. I NEVER said that it was OK because it was not as high as it was or that it was not going to go down further. It will.

    BTW, all you "Big Oil" parrots. How much money should a corporation be allowed to make before the government punishes it by taking it away?

    Why is it that we avoid talking about a full balance sheet of "Big Oil" and only like to throw around "gross income"? I believe most of the oil companies have a very pedestrian return of equity of 10% +/- after expenses, R&D, Taxes, etc.

    Thats certainly no windfall for the investor.
    Last edited by RoughRider; 09-03-2008 at 12:17 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by RoughRider View Post
    Why is it that we avoid talking about a full balance sheet of "Big Oil" and only like to throw around "gross income"? I believe most of the oil companies have a very pedestrian return of equity of 10% +/- after expenses, R&D, Taxes, etc.

    Thats certainly no windfall for the investor.

    DO NOT interject fact into this debate. You will totally confuse the liberals.
    PROUD, HONORED AND HUMBLED RECIPIENT OF THE PURPLE HYDRANT AWARD - 10/2007.

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