1. #176
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    Quote Originally Posted by voyager9 View Post
    If the price at the pump is primarily driven by the supply of Crude, why are the oil companies making record profits?
    One of the reasons that the profits are so large is because the industry and the market is so large.

    There are other industries that make more per dollar spent. Big oil makes about 8.3 cents per dollar invested. Pharmaceutical companies make 18.4 cents per dollar invested, and beverage and tobacco companies make 19.1 cents.

    I also found an interesting tidbit in regards to increasing refining capacity, since 1985, oil companies in the US have increased refining capacity 20%. In spite of the reduction in refineries.

    Also, not all oil companies are posting record profits. Valero only posted a modest $261 million in revenue. This is because of very narrow margins in the refining process, as crude oil prices rose even faster than gas at the pump, and losses from unplanned outages at it's refineries.

    The price for crude oil has gone up about 80 percent, while gas prices have only gone up about 33 percent.

    So who is making the money. Here's the funny part, you and I and thousands of other investors.

    Mutual fund giant Vanguard has more than $18 billion in ExxonMobil stock. Most of that is owned by investors in the company's S&P 500 index fund and its total stock market index fund.

    Almost every major mutual fund company owns oil stocks. Two of Fidelity's mutual funds, for example, rank in the top 10 holders of ExxonMobil stock.

    The oil companies are "broadly owned by tens of millions of middle-class Americans, anyone with a pension plan or 401(k) or IRA account, a mutual fund," Dougher said. "They're really the owners. So, when their stock portfolios go up, that's really who benefits."

    Portions of my post clipped from this link:

    http://abcnews.go.com/Business/PainA...4749343&page=1
    Last edited by ChiefKN; 08-06-2008 at 02:23 PM.
    I am now a past chief and the views, opinions, and comments are mine and mine alone. I do not speak for any department or in any official capacity. Although, they would be smart to listen to me.

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    Quote Originally Posted by voyager9 View Post


    If the price at the pump is primarily driven by the supply of Crude, why are the oil companies making record profits?
    There is no legal limit on the price of gas. They can charge whtever they want. They could charge $10 gallon and probably not take much of a hit. Because most of the American public will keep buying gas.

    Are they making huge amount os money? Of course they are. I personally think it is morally reprehensible. But corporations are in business for one fundamental purpose-to make money. Are they price gouging? Probably. A comprehensive investigation should take place to fnd out how bad it is. But Obama's plan for a confiscatory tax in order to redistribute the money to the "poor" would set a horrible precedent.

    If you want to see the idiocy of this plan, ask yourself this question; how much money should the oil companies be allowed to make?
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    Quote Originally Posted by GeorgeWendtCFI View Post
    Poor you. What is your Masters in?
    i never asked for anyones sympathy, nor do i expect it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by jsin925 View Post
    i never asked for anyones sympathy, nor do i expect it.
    How about answering the question so we can judge the validity of your complaint? (I'll bet he doesn't answer).
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tomcat1066 View Post
    All economic systems are exploitive in someone's opinion. Socialism, communism, and even Fascism all capitalize on the most capable of society and use their labor to suppor the least capable. Instead of "exploiting" the workers who sell their labor, these other systems exploit those who would thrive in a free market economy. The exploit capable managers, inventors, and innovaters by making sure they aren't rewarded for their efforts.

    People generally want to be rewarded for good work. After all, you want a good job to "reward" you for getting your education, correct?
    people do want to be rewarded for good work, but the free market produces an uneven playing field. the free market rewards corporations who pay the average laborer the lowest amount. that's why jobs were shipped to mexico and then to china because the chinese will do it at a cheaper rate than the mexicans. that's why when i call tech support for my computer i'm talking to a person in india. why pay someone here $20,000 a year to do a job someone in india will do for $4000 a year. there's a great documentary about the effects of the free market called life&debt. no system is perfect, especially ours.


    Quote Originally Posted by Tomcat1066 View Post
    You don't have a problem with capitalism, but you have a problem with the free market economy? Sorry...I just don't see how both statements can be true. Perhaps I'm not understanding you?
    capitalism doesn't equal the free market economy as proposed by milton friedman, the one we follow. what's wrong with a fair market economy?

    Quote Originally Posted by Tomcat1066 View Post
    Just for the record though, you lament not being able to get a job in your chosen field where you live, and yet you refuse to move. Sorry bud, but that's on you. Yes, I understand your reasons. I sympathize with them. I'm sort of stuck in my home town at the moment because I'm an only child and my mother will probably need some kind of assistance in the next few years. I can't do that living 200+ miles away after all. But to use yourself as an example on this is hardly viable. You have made a choice. That choice has impacted your potential for finding a job. Accept it and move on.

    Example: There is only one airplane manufacturer in my home town (if they're still even here). They are a small company. I would be stupid to get a degree in aerospace engineering and then lament my inability to get a job in my chosen field when I refuse to move to a place where there are more jobs.

    I'm not trying to be an ***** here, but you had a choice and you made it. It looks like you're upset you can't have your cake and eat it too.

    Of course, not knowing what your degree is in, or where you live, definitely as an effect on my opinions. Knowing that information could change things.
    i'm not lamenting, and didn't ask for anyone's sympathy. i was just explaining my situation. it's always easy to criticize someone when not walking in their shoes. like yourself, moving isn't always an option, or financially feasable. what cake am i trying to have and eat too? a job? i'm not trying to change your opinion, just explain mine. i haven't given up on my job search, and i said that i wasn't able to get an interview in the private sector. the city has given me an interview and i have a second one coming up. in today's economy it's hard for anyone to find a job. but that move where there's work is a simplified solution. if i don't have a job in the state i'm moving to how will i afford housing and food for my kids? i've applied to jobs in other states too, by the way, but i prefer to stay where i'm at if i can.

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    Quote Originally Posted by GeorgeWendtCFI View Post
    How about answering the question so we can judge the validity of your complaint? (I'll bet he doesn't answer).
    i never asked you all to judge me, nor are you all in a position to judge me. your judgements hold no validity with me, and i'm not playing your gotcha game, as bush would say.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ChiefKN View Post
    This makes no sense. So, if I take a video of me giving you my opinion, would you consider that gospel?

    Because you sure are buying into this horsehockey.

    Read the law.
    i've read the law. have you watched the videos?

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    Quote Originally Posted by jsin925 View Post
    i've read the law. have you watched the videos?
    No and I feel no need to. Again, these magical videos are just someone else's ramblings or opinions.

    The law is in black and white and written in english.
    I am now a past chief and the views, opinions, and comments are mine and mine alone. I do not speak for any department or in any official capacity. Although, they would be smart to listen to me.

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    Quote Originally Posted by jsin925 View Post
    people do want to be rewarded for good work, but the free market produces an uneven playing field.
    So, you believe in this statement.

    From each according to his ability, to each according to his need

    Right?
    I am now a past chief and the views, opinions, and comments are mine and mine alone. I do not speak for any department or in any official capacity. Although, they would be smart to listen to me.

    "The last thing I want to do is hurt you. But it's still on the list."

    "When tempted to fight fire with fire, remember that the Fire Department usually uses water."

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    Quote Originally Posted by ChiefKN View Post
    So, you believe in this statement.

    From each according to his ability, to each according to his need

    Right?
    No more so than I believe in the statement:

    "All men are created equal."
    Politics is like driving. To go forward select "D", to go backward select "R."

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    Quote Originally Posted by ChiefKN View Post
    No and I feel no need to. Again, these magical videos are just someone else's ramblings or opinions.

    The law is in black and white and written in english.

    come on. just watch one and tell me what you think. they're not long.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ChiefKN View Post
    So, you believe in this statement.

    From each according to his ability, to each according to his need

    Right?
    sounds good, but i like do unto others as you would have them do unto you, better. also, judge not lest ye be judged, but my all time favorite is people in hell want ice water (which is what my mother used to say to me a lot).

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    Quote Originally Posted by jasper45 View Post
    Hardly mindless.
    Where are all of the people being detained without just cause? Are you talking about Guantanamo Bay? You mean people who have taken up arms against the United States? People who want to kill us for being different than they are? You mean those people who are not even US citizens?

    Where are all of the cases of peoples civil rights being violated?
    You want to talk about the "morality police", what about all of the legislation out there dictating what can happen in private business, like what kind of oil they can fry food in, or whether smoking can be allowed or not on it's premises, or how they promote "safe haven cities" that defy Federal laws, which in turn endangers all of us.

    Your constitutional rights are just fine, let's just make sure we're able to stay alive and enjoy them.
    Just what I thought, you really haven't been paying attention. Let me lend a hand...

    When you have some free time, do a little search on a thing called the Patriot Act.

    When you get bored with that, check out 18 U.S.C. 2257.

    The jist of this little gem is the US DOJ (at the direction of GWB's hired gun, Alberto Gonzales) has decided that in certain situations, you have to prove that your not doing anything wrong, the government assumes you are.

    And yes, thats exactly the opposite of what is written in the constitution. You know, the whole "innocent until proven guilty" thing.

    And these are just two examples that popped in my head at the moment.

    Now, what were you saying about our rights being just fine?
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    Quote Originally Posted by 1835Wayne View Post
    Well Dave, I am not talking about the current adminstration. I am as appaled at some of the things they have done as you are. I am talking about what just happened. I am discussing THAT issue, not everything else under the sun.

    I disdain a good bit of the "Patriot" act. I also disdain the actions of Nancy Pelosi. Do you have anything to say about her??

    I can not call what she has done an "adjournment". It was a hijacking.
    I agree, she was wrong.

    But what got me was all these people are screaming about rights now? What about all these other things? Where was the outrage before? Or was it OK then because it was a Republican administration doing it?

    I guess I should mention I'm neither Rep or Dem. Both of these parties have made a mockery of the Constitution whenever it fits their particular agenda.
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    Quote Originally Posted by jsin925 View Post
    come on. just watch one and tell me what you think. they're not long.
    Alright my friend, I watched. It's 8 minutes of my life I want back.

    She is misrepresenting the law, plain and simple. It actually makes me mad that she uses her RN credentials to do this.

    But let's go with it... lets say big brother was warehousing DNA.

    Why? What would they gain ? What black helicopter conspiracy are you all suggesting?

    Now, let's talk of the gains... the research into better, more accurate screening...

    The diseases that are not routinely caught upon screening now, may be caught in the future.

    Do you know that hospitals are currently warehousing your private medical information?

    Sorry, this is alarmist conspiracy nutjob stuff.
    I am now a past chief and the views, opinions, and comments are mine and mine alone. I do not speak for any department or in any official capacity. Although, they would be smart to listen to me.

    "The last thing I want to do is hurt you. But it's still on the list."

    "When tempted to fight fire with fire, remember that the Fire Department usually uses water."

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dave1983 View Post
    Just what I thought, you really haven't been paying attention. Let me lend a hand...

    Hardly, I've been paying attention. That's why I responded to your post.


    Now, what were you saying about our rights being just fine?
    What US citizens have been arrested? Which US citizens have been ripped from their homes by the government?

    Give us a good alternate solution in preventing terror attacks on our soil, and keeping people alive to enjoy their rights, then.
    The FBI is not acting on anything other than terror related issues, with the "wiretapping". I guess you would feel better letting a few terror attacks "slip" thru then. They're not "spying" on us, they are acting on legit terror threats. They're not even acting on common criminal acts that they uncover.


    I'm sure it would be a great comfort for a slain persons family to know that we were able to prevent an attack, but chose not to, because that is what we would be doing.

    Innocent until proven guilty? Come on, we're not talking about crime, were talking about warfare. We're talking about people who are not US citizens who have taken up arms against the United States. We're talking about people who are combating the United States and who have a goal of toppling us as a nation. These are not common criminals, and you know that.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Raughammer1 View Post
    It is a day to day struggle, right now Obama is falling and McCain is rising. Some polls actually (Rasmussen) have McCain ahead.

    Life is good.
    Maybe. CBS shows Obama ahead by 14 points and holding off McCain.

    Dare to dream my friend.
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    Quote Originally Posted by ChiefKN View Post
    Alright my friend, I watched. It's 8 minutes of my life I want back.

    She is misrepresenting the law, plain and simple. It actually makes me mad that she uses her RN credentials to do this.

    But let's go with it... lets say big brother was warehousing DNA.

    Why? What would they gain ? What black helicopter conspiracy are you all suggesting?

    Now, let's talk of the gains... the research into better, more accurate screening...

    The diseases that are not routinely caught upon screening now, may be caught in the future.

    Do you know that hospitals are currently warehousing your private medical information?

    Sorry, this is alarmist conspiracy nutjob stuff.
    thanks for watching, and your opinion. i still don't trust it. by the way, i was really digging the word horsehockey. that's a new one for me.

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    Quote Originally Posted by jasper45 View Post
    What US citizens have been arrested? Which US citizens have been ripped from their homes by the government?
    well, jose padilla wasn't ripped from his home but he was held without charges, and tortured. we would never know who was ripped away from their home because the government doesn't have to acknowledge having anyone.

    the war on terror is like the war on drugs, unwinnable. terrorism is a tactic, and one can't have a war against a tactic. it's kind of like saying a war on shock and awe.

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    Quote Originally Posted by scfire86 View Post
    Maybe it is in your little world. The real world is different. CA is one of the top ten economies in the world based upon its GSP. DE is a fly speck by comparison. Believe what you want, but you're alone in believing that DE is a more significant force in the US economy than CA. And btw. The most significant economic engine in CA is tourism and agriculture.
    Help me out, do you really mean GSP and not GDP? If so, what is GSP because I can find it anywhere in this context. NY is also heavy agriculture and tourism. Unfortunately, tourism relies on people having disposable income. As the government takes more of that disposable income tourism drops. It also hurts the agriculture. Instead of buying the expensive wine people but the cheap wine. Instead of real maple syrup they buy imitation. However, to accurately measure how well an economy does one must normalize the data. For instance A household of 10 people earning $200,000 is not as good as a household of 2 earning $100,000.


    Can you point me to a nation where the rate of taxation is lower and the quality of living is higher. If it has as lax an emigration policy as the US I'll pack my bags. I've traveled abroad to several nations where taxes are much lower than they are here in the US. I can assure you wouldn't want to live in any of them.
    Personally, I don't care about any other country. I only care about my country and what they are doing to me.

    Hypothetical. Who knows. There are numerous examples of the private sector mismanaging its fiscal resources. They're called bankruptcies.
    Governments are worse, they don't have bankruptcies, they have deficits. And I can sho3w huge examples of governments mis-managing their money. Unfortunately, they get away with it by raising more taxes.

    You posit a reality in which money belongs to the people who earn it. A fair concept. Likewise, however, the peopleís government belongs to them, and they to it. Part of the social compact of belonging to a civil society is assisting in the upkeep of that society. You call that theft by taxation; I take a less nihilistic attitude toward it: itís the price of being part of this society.

    Now, we can debate all we want about the proper role and extent of that government that weíve established among ourselves, but our essential civic obligation to fund whatever we collectively deem a proper role for government is, or ought to be, unquestioned. It is, indeed, a form of patriotism. Thereís a reason our system has such a low rate of tax delinquency compared to most of the rest of the world, and itís not some inherent moral superiority. Itís a fundamental support and consent of the governed, which has been the unique hallmark of American society from its founding.
    There is nothing wrong with supporting basic government operations. Unfortunately, our current status has a lot of extra baggage. We pay for the health care of illegal aliens. And if we are going to do that, then why not pay for the health care of everyone in the world. Our social programs are out of control. I have no problem helping someone who is down on their luck. But we have created a system where by it is passed down from generation to generation. Millions of people in this country accept it as a way of life.

    We have a world class military. We don't need it. Clinton got that half right, if only he had finished the job. We do not need to be the worlds military. We had no business going into the former Yugoslav republic, Bosnia, Kosovo, and to some extent Iraq. We went to Kuwait as they asked for help. I'm good with that. And as part of the surrender Saddam agreed to certain conditions, which he did not stick too. Talk wasn't working. Oil for food flopped miserably. We had to do something. Removing Saddam was the right thing to do. Once that was done we leave. Let them fight their own battles.

    As for the delinquent taxes. The reason we have a low rate is the IRS just takes all of your stuff. In my personal situation I had a time where I became unemployed and need to survive. I took my 401k rather than run top the local welfare office. In retrospect, I should have ran to the welfare office. They raped me with taxes, followed by penalties and interest. Tried to do the right thing and got screwed for it. And now I'm back on my feet, but can't get ahead, because they take 43% of my check. And I'm sorry, but when half of the work I do goes to support the government I think we have a problem. That means that half I support the notion of a communist system, that in which you have no freedom and the government provides for you.

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    Quote Originally Posted by jsin925 View Post
    well, jose padilla wasn't ripped from his home but he was held without charges, and tortured. we would never know who was ripped away from their home because the government doesn't have to acknowledge having anyone.

    the war on terror is like the war on drugs, unwinnable. terrorism is a tactic, and one can't have a war against a tactic. it's kind of like saying a war on shock and awe.
    I see, so are you suggesting we just do nothing. Let the thugs beat us up?

    Sorry I have a little more pride than that, I will stand up to those who you support and fight them to the end. For in the end, good must prevail.

    Your last paragraph (so to speak) has to be the most retarded thing I have ever seen. We can't win - so don't even try.

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    Quote Originally Posted by jsin925 View Post
    people do want to be rewarded for good work, but the free market produces an uneven playing field. the free market rewards corporations who pay the average laborer the lowest amount. that's why jobs were shipped to mexico and then to china because the chinese will do it at a cheaper rate than the mexicans. that's why when i call tech support for my computer i'm talking to a person in india. why pay someone here $20,000 a year to do a job someone in india will do for $4000 a year. there's a great documentary about the effects of the free market called life&debt. no system is perfect, especially ours.
    And many of those same companies are starting to move their industries back to the US. Why? Quality is important to many of them, and the US worker provides it more than workers in many other nations, especially developing nations.

    The free market economy that you have such an issue with is the same economy that made the modern age we live in possible. Without the potential for profit, the personal computer wouldn't be sitting on your desk. The assembly line method would never have been created to mass produce cars. And, many of the innovations that keep firefighters safe would never have been created either. It is the desire for reward that drives people to innovate. Is the playing field level? Maybe not as level as it once was, but it's still level. Build a better mouse trap, and the world will still beat a path to your door.



    capitalism doesn't equal the free market economy as proposed by milton friedman, the one we follow. what's wrong with a fair market economy?
    What's wrong with it is in determining what is "fair". Fair for whom? I invent a product that no one else has. I decide to sell it. A competitor decides that it's unfair that I alone get to sell my new product. "Fair Market" economy is usually a euphemism for some form of socialist economy.

    i'm not lamenting, and didn't ask for anyone's sympathy. i was just explaining my situation. it's always easy to criticize someone when not walking in their shoes.
    And the question asked is important for us to try and understand what walking in your shoes is like. Knowing what your degree is in would help us understand what you're trying to say after all. I mean, your situation would mean different things if you studied Indonesian Property Management, as opposed to Nursing, for example.

    like yourself, moving isn't always an option, or financially feasable. what cake am i trying to have and eat too? a job?
    You want to live in an area where you obviously can't find a job, but you don't want to move. So, you want to have your cake (a job) and eat it too (live in your current city) despite the obstacles in your way. Yeah, lots of people manage it, but not everyone can.

    i'm not trying to change your opinion, just explain mine. i haven't given up on my job search, and i said that i wasn't able to get an interview in the private sector. the city has given me an interview and i have a second one coming up. in today's economy it's hard for anyone to find a job. but that move where there's work is a simplified solution. if i don't have a job in the state i'm moving to how will i afford housing and food for my kids? i've applied to jobs in other states too, by the way, but i prefer to stay where i'm at if i can.
    So now you say you've applied for jobs in other states? OK, fine. Good for you. Frankly, if you have the education you claim, then I find it hard to believe you can't find a job anywhere. And, for the record, I have little reason to doubt you. But you were indicating that you were against moving, and made no reference to applying out of state at any time that I can recall.

    I wish you luck with the job hunt. Of course, I'm still curious what your master's degree is in.

    Oh yeah, this quote you said earlier you agreed with?
    From each according to his ability, to each according to his need
    You are aware where it comes from originally, right?

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    Quote Originally Posted by ScareCrow57 View Post
    I see, so are you suggesting we just do nothing. Let the thugs beat us up?

    Sorry I have a little more pride than that, I will stand up to those who you support and fight them to the end. For in the end, good must prevail.

    Your last paragraph (so to speak) has to be the most retarded thing I have ever seen. We can't win - so don't even try.
    did i ever suggest doing nothing? no, i said it's unwinnable as a war, which it is. terrorism is a tactic. in palestine they use terrorism as a tactic. the ira used terrorism as a tactic. the basque used terrorism as a tactic. shock and awe was a tactic and it didn't work.

    you sound like a comic book, "For in the end, good must prevail." next you'll be calling people evildoers like my 9 yr old when he writes his stories. those cats struck the world trade center in '93 and waited 8 yrs until they struck again. they developed their tactics over time. it might be another 8 years until they strike again. who is the enemy? i read a book (i forget what it was called) about special ops in afghanistan, and they said they don't know who they're fighting, who the enemy is or where they are exactly located. the majority of hijackers were from saudi arabia, so why not go to war with saudi arabia?

    interpol would probably do a better job. i don't have any answers, but i know things are bad.

    the american government puts bad people on our payroll like sadaam hussein and bin laden. hussein was cool when he was fighting with iran, and bin laden was cool when he was fighting the russians. we helped put the taliban in power and now they're bad. these people have always been bad, but if they're on our side they're cool. stalin was bad but he was cool during world war two. and don't say the rhetoric about my enemy's enemy is my friend crap either. that's bull***** when you just end up fighting the guy in the end.

    i've never been to war, maybe you have, but my brother fought in the first gulf war, and he's not down with war. did you watch the winter soldiers hearings? a lot of people who fought over there don't see the point. why are we in iraq in the first place?

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    Quote Originally Posted by jsin925 View Post
    the american government puts bad people on our payroll like sadaam hussein and bin laden.
    Yea, and Hillary Clinton, Nancy Pelosi, and Barrack Obama.

    I am now a past chief and the views, opinions, and comments are mine and mine alone. I do not speak for any department or in any official capacity. Although, they would be smart to listen to me.

    "The last thing I want to do is hurt you. But it's still on the list."

    "When tempted to fight fire with fire, remember that the Fire Department usually uses water."

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    the 4-1-4
    Jasper 45's Avatar
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    well, jose padilla wasn't ripped from his home but he was held without charges, and tortured.
    Where was he captured from, again?



    the war on terror is like the war on drugs, unwinnable. terrorism is a tactic, and one can't have a war against a tactic. it's kind of like saying a war on shock and awe.

    Wrong.
    Dealing with terror as a "law enforcement" issue worked even less. Terrorism is an act of war, as such it should be treated as such. It is possible to cripple terror groups, eliminate their funding, dry up their infrastructure, and cause countries to not want to harbor terror groups.
    Active military operations are the only way to deal with terror groups, be it with direct force or thru covert operations. History has proven that.

    But yeah, I get it. We're much better off to try and talk, placate, and let these animals run roughshod over us.

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