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    Default 2010 emission changes

    I am curious about just how the new 2010 emission changes will impact fire apparatus. I have heard that a urea tank will be added to inject into the exhaust system. Builders have told me that compartment space will be lost due to this addition. I have also read the the Cummins ISX will not have to have the urea injection. Are there any other engines that will not have the tank?

    I am under the assumption that the ISX will not fit into any current custom chassis on the market. I have read that at least Seagrave is looking to squeeze it into the Marauder II. Detroit Diesel is bailing because of 2010 changes or for whatever reason. Rumor has it that International and Man are teaming up.

    I looked up the specs on the ISX and it is a beast. At around 3500 lbs dry, it is almost 800 pounds heavier that the DD Series 60. I can see why it won't fit into the current chassis. If not having a urea tank system on your next apparatus is that important, then the ISX may have to be the way to go. However, the additional cost of such a large engine for the sole purpose of not having the tank may not be cost effective.

    What has anyone else heard?

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    A lot of what you've put are the same rumors that I've heard. However, there are two items that aren't rumors: Cat will no longer supply diesels to the fire service after 2010, and DD's will only be available in "their" brands (Western Star, etc).
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    One of the biggest issues surrounding the 2007 and 2010 engines is the amount of cooling air that needs to be circulated. To get around the larger doghouses, you might see more mid or rear engine designs down the road.
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    The only thing I would say is that the 2010 ISX will be three different displacements, so I would be pretty confident that they will find a way to shoehorn at least the smallest one in various custom chassis (the Cummins rep I talked to said there will be at least two ISX engine blocks, not one common one). A couple of us on here have been told that Spartan is working hard to get an ISX in their product for the 2010 change.

    In my opinion, I think this is why the newer Pierce cabs are 100 inches wide, and one wonders what the other builders are going to have to do to get the larger motors tucked into their chassis.
    Last edited by npfd801; 08-14-2008 at 01:54 PM.
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    IH and Man have already released their MaxxForce 11 & 13 in the US. 1st units delivered in July as I recall. Man (Germany) has a very good reputation overseas big into stationary generator sets. Likely they can come up with a 15 (or as big as required) if demand warrants.

    But the fire truck market is pretty small. Think about how many ladders and big pumpers are built per year. If every one had a Detroit (or other 15l+) would be what, maybe 500 engines per year?

    IH/Man has stated that their 2010 will not require urea to meet standards. Staying with improvement/enhancements to their current equipment. Still sounds like will and several $k additional on top of 2007 BS.

    International Truck and Engine Corp. today announced that its MaxxForce diesel engines will meet U.S. EPA 2010 emission regulations for “all its core applications” without selective catalytic reduction (SCR) technology, which requires the use of urea.

    The MaxxForce line of 4.5-, 11- and 13-liter engines was developed by International in partnership with Germany’s MAN Nutzfahrezeuge AG.



    Edit - had wrong engine mfg. Cummins urea. IH/Man no urea
    Last edited by neiowa; 08-14-2008 at 08:14 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by neiowa View Post
    Cummins has stated that their 2010 will not require urea to meet standards. Staying with improvement/enhancements to their current equipment. Still sounds like will and several $k additional on top of 2007 BS.
    This should be only the ISX from Cummins, the ISC and ISL will require urea injection....
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    Quote Originally Posted by npfd801 View Post
    This should be only the ISX from Cummins, the ISC and ISL will require urea injection....
    I'd swear in a piece in Diesel Progress in the last couple issues stated that Cummins decided they could ditch the urea BS. Big pushback from US users. I might be wrong, will see if I still have the mag.

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    I have it wrong on Cummins. WILL have SCR/urea on midsize. BUT a new Press Release says will also now have on Heavy duty. (ISX would be the heavy duty)?

    http://www.dieselprogress.com/news_d...ck=1401&from=0

    Big spin like this is a GOOD thing???? How's that? Thanks EPA.



    Cummins Says Yes To SCR For 2010

    XPI fuel system, cooled EGR, VG turbo, particulate filter, and advanced electronics the rest of the technology package

    Cummins Inc. said it will add selective catalytic reduction (SCR) aftertreatment to its heavy-duty products for 2010. The Columbus, Ind. manufacturer said it will combine recent advancements in catalyst technology with its unique engine systems. This will, the company said. provide customers with significant fuel economy improvements, in addition to meeting the emissions levels required by the Environmental Protection Agency’s 2010 regulations. Cummins Emission Solutions, a leading provider of SCR systems, will supply integrated exhaust aftertreatment systems for Cummins heavy-duty and mid-range engines. ......


    PR on Intl/ALF partnership -
    ....Working with American LaFrance is another example of Navistar’s strategy of growth through leveraging our own assets and those that others have built,” said Daniel C. Ustian, Navistar chairman, president and CEO. “This relationship provides us with a new opportunity to further grow our business globally and meet the needs of customers through a new line of vocational vehicles.”

    The companies have commissioned teams to focus on truck and engine opportunities. ....

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    Quote Originally Posted by firepiper1 View Post
    One of the biggest issues surrounding the 2007 and 2010 engines is the amount of cooling air that needs to be circulated.
    Our Dept has already considered that and decided to move from tranny retarders to Engine Compression Brakes to reduce the load on the cooling system. (Something that should have been done 10 years ago.)
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    Hey imagine that, big government environmentalist whacko liberal democrats implementing restrictions that affect real world usage and add cost.

    When will people learn?
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    Hey imagine that, big government environmentalist whacko liberal democrats implementing restrictions that affect real world usage and add cost.

    When will people learn?
    Finally, a sensible quote from Ha11igan!

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    Default More Space

    A Spartan representive stated at FDIC that the 2010 engine requirements would result in approx. 25% more cooling and would require an additional 13 square feet. I believe the 13 additional square feet was in addition to the area needed for the cooling.

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    Comparing a Maxforce engine to a ISX ia akin to comparing a yugo to a Hummer. No comparison. It's not Cummins that's throwing a fit about the urea, it's the EPA. Just like last time,Cummins will have to prove their numbers. And they will. Personally,for the Fire market.I think it's all a crock of s**t. I'd like to get a couple of these high muckimucks in a burning building and have the electronics crap out on them like it does us. Wanna bet there would be some changes? Too many bean counters,too little thinking people(brains). My next one should be bought PRIOR to 2010,so we will be sitting pretty for about 5,and the bugs should be worked out by then. T.C.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rescue101 View Post
    Comparing a Maxforce engine to a ISX ia akin to comparing a yugo to a Hummer. No comparison.

    Guy the MaxxForce 11 & 13 are not related in any way to the DT530 (renamed MaxForce 9 & 10). Total new engine for IH based on existing MAN engine. If you want to educate yourself go to http://www.maxxforce.com/

    Likely will become an option to Cummins. And if can leave out the urea BS would get my choice.
    Last edited by neiowa; 08-18-2008 at 03:54 PM.

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    I'll give you that I haven't driven many of the Maxforce series.I do,however,have an extensive background with cornbinders(Ints) dating back to the late 50's.We are also very Cummins oriented and I still contend that International has a ways to go to compare to the ISX as I know it. I've got a few thousand in a four axle heavy hauler moving big dozers and excavators and I can attest that the ISX is a formidable powerplant when properly specced. Nothing that International has offered to date even comes close. But occasionally the rules change,and I'll give credit when it's due.When I get a chance to roady a Maxforce 11 or 14 I'll let you know, but they're up against some pretty stiff competition. T.C.

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    Default Rescue101's experience

    Not saying Rescue101 is OLD but as he says, he does have a lot of experience with the IH product. Here is a photo of one of the first IH products he drove and worked on. He was just a young lad when he picked this brand new rig up at the dealership and took it home. I think you told me it was in 1911 Tim, right?
    Last edited by tomwnh; 08-27-2009 at 11:56 PM.

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    Cool MaxxForce Engine

    The best feature of the 12.4 liter MaaxForce engine is that its peak torque is at a very, very, low 1,000 rpm. Max HP is 475.

    It's torque that moves the load on start up.

    The Mack engines have peak torque at 1,200 rpm. Cummins and Detroit at 1,400 rpm. That's why the Macks have been so popular because you can lug them at low rpm and not have to down shift as much.

    This new engine will probably feel like a 550- 600 hp engine on start up with a torque band that low. The nickname "Old Stump Puller" comes to mind.

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    Quote Originally Posted by neiowa View Post
    Guy the MaxxForce 11 & 14 are not related in any way to the DT530 (renamed MaxForce 9 & 10).
    The website claims a B50 life of 1,400,000 miles.

    That's impressive.

    For comparison, the ISX, Mack E7, and CAT C15 B50's are each 1,000,000 miles, and the DD60 is 850,000.
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    Tomcat,you dumba** that's the OLD MAN's first truck. MY first 'baler was a '58 R180 with the old boat anchor iron lung 6.
    17, While Cummins has a SUGGESTED major at 1 mil it's not uncommon for a well cared for ISX to do a million five before majoring. Many factors enter in here but that's one tough engine. I've seen a bunch of Cats and DD's do over a million too but you gotta change oil and stuff once in awhile and tighten the fasteners. Guys,I've got no issue with Internationals new offerings but to me,unlike the ISX,it's still an unproven platform.Yes,I know Mann's been around a long time but this new platform doesn't have any history here in the US. I'll openly admit I like Cummins,we've run them for a long time with low overall cost of ownership. And I can take 'em apart and put 'em back together with the tools I have in the shop. And since our fleet is predominately Cummins I doubt we'll be changing anytime soon. T.C.
    Last edited by Rescue101; 08-16-2008 at 12:22 PM.

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    Thumbs up Cummins

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rescue101 View Post
    17, While Cummins has a SUGGESTED major at 1 mil it's not uncommon for a well cared for ISX to do a million five before majoring. Many factors enter in here but that's one tough engine. I've seen a bunch of Cats and DD's do over a million too but you gotta change oil and stuff once in awhile and tighten the fasteners.
    Good point, the B50 life is only a "projected" midpoint for a "bell curve" of engine life. I tend to think that OEM's inflate this figure for marketing purposes, as it isn't substantiated by hard data.

    The truth is, only the busiest of engine companies (3,500+ calls a year) would ever hope to run a BigBlock diesel enough to require a major overhaul. I doubt there has ever been a fire body made that is tough enough to last 10 or more calls a day for 10 years.

    Even if you do run one enough to require a major overhaul, it (the truck) would definitely require a bumper to bumper refurb before being placed back into service.
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    Quote Originally Posted by neiowa View Post
    Guy the MaxxForce 11 & 13 are not related in any way to the DT530 (renamed MaxForce 9 & 10). Total new engine for IH based on existing MAN engine. If you want to educate yourself go to http://www.maxxforce.com/

    Likely will become an option to Cummins. And if can leave out the urea BS would get my choice.

    Had a very informative discussion with IH factory rep to fire industry. They WILL have a 15l (and up) MaxxForce engine in time to replace Detroit/CAT in the heavy/fire truck market. 2010 compliant without Urea. Will package in same/current space as Detroit S60. Blocks are rough cast in Brazil, machined and all else made in US and assembled in US. 11l & 13l are shipping to commericial use (same block different sleeves). Expect for fire applications (NFPA1901-2009) to certification to be complete within 60days.

    Also that Cummins has a problem (need a waver) meeting the new NFPA standards. As I understand it max of 2% variantion in power output and Cummins controls can't hold it. IH can. For any/all of the current Cummins models (can't) and IH for all engine models (can).

    Discussed DPF. Says in specing chassis select the option that places DPF as close to the engine as possible (under rightside/officers door (IH vertical exh chose 7BDL)) and the filter will not plug (so will not periodically have to go thru regen) as will continully burn off soot. Outside shell of DPF on an IH system is max temp is approx 350degree F (is insulated) with design of not to exceed 400deg F (says grass haved 451degree F ignition temp). If concerned, that it is OK to place a heat shield around the DPF. So no worries about driving into a field with your 2007+ truck.
    Last edited by neiowa; 08-18-2008 at 04:31 PM.

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    If you ask me horse drawn apparatus are sounding better all the time...
    Just Kidding!

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    Last edited by rschultzjr; 08-18-2008 at 05:10 PM. Reason: correction

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    I'm not sure the horses would tolerate the particulate filter.

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    Default Hay barn

    Quote Originally Posted by ChiefSquirrel View Post
    I'm not sure the horses would tolerate the particulate filter.
    How big of a hay barn would you need to keep enough feed around for 400+ horses.

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