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    Default Morality In Question.

    Quote Originally Posted by scfire86 View Post
    I read some of the comparisions on the website. I'll look for other sources but I believe that is exactly what occurred.

    McCain supports placing firefighters into the Social Security which would be an immediate hit of about 16% on income. He wants to overturn FLSA which would have an impact on how overtime is calculated.

    Most curious to me is his opposition to defined benefit pension plans. He campaigned here in CA to support an initiative that would have demolished defined benefit plans in 2005. It lost. The Governor has expressed regret over supporting the issue but McCain has not. What is curious to me is his belief in this matter given that he collects a pension for his years of service as a naval officer and qualifies for another as a legislator. If he believes defined benefit pension plans are so wrong why isn't he now advocating eliminating them for federal workers. Especially those in the DoD?

    Like it or not, he has a record of opposing what I call very much bread and butter issues for working people.

    Has anyone questioned the absence of morality in Obama? This guy voted for a bill that would allow the killing of a child in a late term abortion if the child somehow survived the abortion process. Additionally, he does not believe in our second ammendment right. Also, he believes in appeasing the very terrorists that would have us all killed. Third, he wants to sit down and talk with the Iranian madman? Fourth, he wants to be a modern day Robin Hood - steal from the rich and give to the poor who have no ambition to start with. Fifth, no matter what happens to FLSA or any other monetary issue, he's going to raise your taxes to the point that you'll be glad gasoline is only $3.60/gallon. Think about it, morality and safety are more important than my overtime. This is the very reason why I am no longer a member of the IAFF.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ScareCrow57 View Post
    Aren't military personnel public employees? Teamsters have their own pension system, yet they pay in. Why should anyone be exempt?
    You'll have to ask the folks who enacted SSI back in 1935. I do know that pension plans have been put in place as a result to accomodate public safety employees such as disability and earlier retirement.

    Something SSI won't do.
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    I say that NOBODY pays (extra) into SSI until Congress uses it as their retirement system. It will never get fixed untill Congresscritters use it as their retirement system.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ECCMac View Post
    I say that NOBODY pays (extra) into SSI until Congress uses it as their retirement system. It will never get fixed untill Congresscritters use it as their retirement system.

    That will never happen... and it wouldn't matter, as most congressmen and senators are wealthy.. either by inheriting their fortunes or marrying them.
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    As the brother in the next post points out, I had inaccurate information. My apologies.
    Last edited by Geinandputitout; 08-17-2008 at 10:26 PM. Reason: Accuracy

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    Quote Originally Posted by Geinandputitout View Post
    Congressman and Senators would never agree to use Social Security, they have the dream pension of all time. 100% as soon as they quit running or get beat, regardless of length of service.
    Not quite.

    Their benefit is good, but not that good.

    Congressional Pensions
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    Quote Originally Posted by ScareCrow57 View Post
    Sorry, I don't buy that explanation. We all have to pay income taxes; we should all pay SSI as well. FYI SSI pays more than just retirement benefits. It also pays for life time disability as well. There is also medicaid. No one, regardless of their pension plan, should be exempt.

    I lose 14.2% of my paycheck to this ridiculous program. I'm sure you think it is a good program, but you don't have to support it.
    Here's you an idea. Get rid of Social Security altogether. It was originally a temporary program, anyway. If the lawmakers see fit, require every worker to pay X% into some form of retirement program.

    I will gladly keep paying 18.08% of my check into our pension fund that will still be around when I turn 48 and become elegible to retire rather than paying into a Social Security program that likely won't be there when I turn 65.

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    A union endorsed a Democrat.

    Also, water is wet.











    (I do have to wonder how it feels to be the second choice, though....)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Geinandputitout View Post
    Corporate america convincing people a 401(k) and a defined benefit pension system are even similar is one of the biggest lines of bull sh(t ever perpetrated on the american public.
    Must have been told different than me. I was always told that my 401(k), and 457 plans were retirement plans. Never used the terms or even got close to calling it a pension.

    Sadly, the government will tax this at the rate of personal taxes when you withdraw from it, which is why a Roth IRA is, for the most part, better. You pay taxes on it now, and reap the benefits later - even if it is a Roth 401(k). Because taxes aren't exactly going to go down.

    And if you think Social Security is going to be a viable plan for your retirement in 15 years, you need to step away from the crack pipe.
    "Too many people spend money they haven't earned, to buy things they don't want, to impress people they don't like." Will Rogers

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    Quote Originally Posted by ECCMac View Post
    I say that NOBODY pays (extra) into SSI until Congress uses it as their retirement system. It will never get fixed untill Congresscritters use it as their retirement system.
    The useless buffoons and hypocrates in Congress will never give anything like this back to the people.

    Minimal cost insurance for them. Retirement plan pension after 12 years in Congress, with health care.

    Do you think the blood-sucking leeches in Congress are going to do anything that benefits you or me?

    Not even The Chosen One himself will do anything for us working stiffs, except of course raise out taxes - instead of reign in spending.
    "Too many people spend money they haven't earned, to buy things they don't want, to impress people they don't like." Will Rogers

    The borrower is slave to the lender. Proverbs 22:7 - Debt free since 10/5/2009.

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    "As Americans we must always remember that we all have a common enemy, an enemy that is dangerous, powerful and relentless. I refer, of course, to the federal government." - Dave Barry

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    Quote Originally Posted by scfire86 View Post
    What is curious to me is his belief in this matter given that he collects a pension for his years of service as a naval officer and qualifies for another as a legislator.
    Because his pension is not for sevice as an officer. It is a diability allotment awarded for injuries received or aggravated by military service. This is a tax-free benefit administered by the Veterans Administration, based upon the severity of his injuries and the limitations that they pose upon him performing the position he had while in the Navy - that of an aviator. It is not a pension, and it is no different than a pension given to a firefighter or polioce officer for a line od duty injury.

    It is also no different than that disability allotment given to Senator Inouye of Hawai'i or former Senator Bob Dole. Nor is it different from the thousands of other men and women in this nation who have service connected disabilities (myself included) who are then able to find a job with a government agency and obtain a pension that way.

    Personally, no politician should receive a pension. It is semantics. Most, expecially at the Federal Level are millionaires, and ought to serve at the will of the people, not suck the trough dry and remain in office for the benefits.

    Now, the legislature pension is a different animal altogether.



    Quote Originally Posted by scfire86 View Post
    If he believes defined benefit pension plans are so wrong why isn't he now advocating eliminating them for federal workers. Especially those in the DoD?

    Like it or not, he has a record of opposing what I call very much bread and butter issues for working people.
    And many other politicians have a habit of saying they support them, but doing nothing for them. At least you know where he stands. For better or worse.
    "Too many people spend money they haven't earned, to buy things they don't want, to impress people they don't like." Will Rogers

    The borrower is slave to the lender. Proverbs 22:7 - Debt free since 10/5/2009.

    "No man's life, liberty, or property are safe while the legislature is in session." - New York Judge Gideon Tucker

    "As Americans we must always remember that we all have a common enemy, an enemy that is dangerous, powerful and relentless. I refer, of course, to the federal government." - Dave Barry

    www.daveramsey.com www.clarkhoward.com www.heritage.org

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    Quote Originally Posted by emt161 View Post
    A union endorsed a Democrat.

    Also, water is wet.











    (I do have to wonder how it feels to be the second choice, though....)
    The IAFF is the most bi-partisan special interest group there is. You can log onto there website to see all of the candidates, along with their affiliation, that they have recently or are endorsing.

    The democratic party is more in-line with issues that are important to the IAFF as an organization. You don't have to like Obama, but it is easy to see that he has voted 100% with the IAFF. McCain has not, he is around 20%.

    The number one issue with the IAFF and the single biggest thing that would help ALL paid firefighters with every single issue in their contracts is collective bargaining. McCain has said he is openly oppsed to it and will not vote in favor. He in fact did not vote on the issue while he was out campaigning, which is as good as a no vote. Obama, temporarily stopped his campaign, went back to Washington, and voted FOR collective bargaining. If you were the IAFF president which one would you support? Seems pretty simple.
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    Quote Originally Posted by DaSharkie View Post
    And many other politicians have a habit of saying they support them, but doing nothing for them. At least you know where he stands. For better or worse.
    I don't support those politicians either after they've done nothing. And for the same reasons I won't be supporting McCain.
    Politics is like driving. To go forward select "D", to go backward select "R."

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    Quote Originally Posted by DaSharkie View Post
    The useless buffoons and hypocrates in Congress will never give anything like this back to the people.

    Minimal cost insurance for them. Retirement plan pension after 12 years in Congress, with health care.

    Do you think the blood-sucking leeches in Congress are going to do anything that benefits you or me?

    Not even The Chosen One himself will do anything for us working stiffs, except of course raise out taxes - instead of reign in spending.
    I do think they had better start rethinking their purpose here. This is not the only forum I belong to, and it is not the only forum where heated political debate occurs. What has changed in the nearly 10 years I have been surfing the net is the character of the debate. We really are at a crossroads. Congress has the lowest approval rating ever. They are not representing their constituencies...and the breaking point is closer than ever. We are being taxed at rates unheard of. We are subsidizing non-citizens with incredible benefits that we as taxpaying citizens are not eligible for. Nancy Pelosi and her positions are not representative of us all, and her antics as Speaker of the House simply are atrocious.

    The breaking point IS near...just how near, is anyone's guess, but certainly closer than it has been since the Civil War...

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    Quote Originally Posted by ECCMac View Post
    Congress has the lowest approval rating ever. They are not representing their constituencies...and the breaking point is closer than ever.
    I would argue that isn't true. One need only look at the re-election rate of incumbents. If the constituencies didn't believe they were being represented there wouldn't be such a high re-election rate of those in office.
    Politics is like driving. To go forward select "D", to go backward select "R."

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    Quote Originally Posted by scfire86 View Post
    I would argue that isn't true. One need only look at the re-election rate of incumbents. If the constituencies didn't believe they were being represented there wouldn't be such a high re-election rate of those in office.
    Soooooo, by your rational, we conclude that GWB's approval rating high.
    The American people will never knowingly adopt Socialism. But under the name of 'liberalism' they will adopt every fragment of the Socialist program, until one day America will be a Socialist nation, without knowing how it happened. --Norman Mattoon Thomas, 6 time presidential candidate for the Socialist Party of America

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    Quote Originally Posted by txgp17 View Post
    Soooooo, by your rational, we conclude that GWB's approval rating high.
    How do you conclude that given that he isn't running?
    Politics is like driving. To go forward select "D", to go backward select "R."

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    Quote Originally Posted by scfire86 View Post
    I would argue that isn't true. One need only look at the re-election rate of incumbents. If the constituencies didn't believe they were being represented there wouldn't be such a high re-election rate of those in office.
    I would ague that you are wrong. Your premise is incorrect. We, by and large, are still seeing the lesser of X evils being elected.

    They (congress) still enjoy the lowest job approval ever.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ECCMac View Post
    I would ague that you are wrong. Your premise is incorrect. We, by and large, are still seeing the lesser of X evils being elected.

    They (congress) still enjoy the lowest job approval ever.
    Congress may have the lowest approval rating ever, but the voters keep sending the same people to congress. What that tells me is the people in those districts approve of the job their representative is doing. If we are selecting the lesser of two evils, whose fault is that? Certainly not those who are being elected?
    Politics is like driving. To go forward select "D", to go backward select "R."

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    Quote Originally Posted by scfire86 View Post
    Congress may have the lowest approval rating ever, but the voters keep sending the same people to congress. What that tells me is the people in those districts approve of the job their representative is doing.

    Actually, I think it's more of a matter of keeping an Experienced Idiot in office instead of Training a new one.


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    Quote Originally Posted by hwoods View Post
    Actually, I think it's more of a matter of keeping an Experienced Idiot in office instead of Training a new one.
    Now that's funny.
    Politics is like driving. To go forward select "D", to go backward select "R."

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    Quote Originally Posted by scfire86 View Post
    Congress may have the lowest approval rating ever, but the voters keep sending the same people to congress. What that tells me is the people in those districts approve of the job their representative is doing. If we are selecting the lesser of two evils, whose fault is that? Certainly not those who are being elected?
    Then I do not understand what your arguement is. I said that Congress has the lowest approval rating ever in two seperate posts, and you still argue that the polls are not correct? I hope you are right, then. McCain by a landslide...

    As for my approving Congress...I despise Colorado's Senators...and will vote for 'M. Mouse' before giving another vote to Ken Salazar...but I love what Tom Tancredo was doing. Too bad he is retiring. But I will vote for Coffman, pretty similar. So, in essence, I am doing what I can.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ECCMac View Post
    Then I do not understand what your arguement is. I said that Congress has the lowest approval rating ever in two seperate posts, and you still argue that the polls are not correct? I hope you are right, then. McCain by a landslide...
    The polls are absolutely correct. But what matters is why or not those who have such a low approval of congress keep sending the same people. The electorate at large may dislike congress, but they like their representative.

    It's not rocket surgery.
    Politics is like driving. To go forward select "D", to go backward select "R."

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    Quote Originally Posted by ScareCrow57 View Post
    Sorry, I don't buy that explanation. We all have to pay income taxes; we should all pay SSI as well. FYI SSI pays more than just retirement benefits. It also pays for life time disability as well. There is also medicaid. No one, regardless of their pension plan, should be exempt.

    I lose 14.2% of my paycheck to this ridiculous program. I'm sure you think it is a good program, but you don't have to support it.
    In addition to paying for our retirement my pension plan also covers life time disability (at rates much better than SSI,) and single private medical coverage (mush better than what medicaid offers.)

    My pension plan has done something SSI has never done...made money!!! It is in the black and has always been in the black. I also only contribute 11% so I get to keep more of my check. That is a lot better than all the IOUs the federal government has put into the SSI folder.

    Why would I want or be forced to enter into a inferior retirement plan (SSI)?

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    Originally Posted by ScareCrow57
    Sorry, I don't buy that explanation. We all have to pay income taxes; we should all pay SSI as well. FYI SSI pays more than just retirement benefits. It also pays for life time disability as well. There is also medicaid. No one, regardless of their pension plan, should be exempt.

    I lose 14.2% of my paycheck to this ridiculous program. I'm sure you think it is a good program, but you don't have to support it.

    Quote Originally Posted by lexfd5 View Post
    In addition to paying for our retirement my pension plan also covers life time disability (at rates much better than SSI,) and single private medical coverage (mush better than what medicaid offers.)

    My pension plan has done something SSI has never done...made money!!! It is in the black and has always been in the black. I also only contribute 11% so I get to keep more of my check. That is a lot better than all the IOUs the federal government has put into the SSI folder.

    Why would I want or be forced to enter into a inferior retirement plan (SSI)?
    Ditto.
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