"2 in and 2 out" is the culmination of many years of toil, heartache, and tears of dedicated firefighters who became galvanized to the fight of developing and implementing this standard because of the pain associated with helplessly watching their brothers and sisters die in fires because there simply were not enough people on scene to prevent it.
Your comment is an affront to every one of those individuals as well as every other firefighter who actually gives a damn about anything other than his own need for the false glory he feels when he stupidly races in to a burning structure by himself.
I do not mean to impede your right to advertise yourself as an uneducated, cretinous neophyte. (you've done quite a good job with that so far, and I am sure your reply to this will expound upon your talent in this area) However, just in case you were unaware of how you were coming off, I thought it only neighborly to inform you.
My sincere hope is that you are not in any position of leadership in your department (de facto or official). Attitudes like yours only serve to keep our industry in the dark ages and prevent us, as a group, from educating the tax payers about the importance of utilizing their money in ways that best help us serve them in their times of need. More staffing means more lives saved. Both civilian and servant.
You should probably forgo your next promotional testing opportunity until you have had time to do a little research. You should start with reading as many Line Of Duty Death reports as you can get your hands on. Paying special attention to those which reflect causes related to under staffing. You should probably also wait a few years until you have some experience in the service (if you live that long).
There is nothing funny about not having enough help to rescue a downed firefighter.
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Thread: "2 in 2 Out"
01-07-2009, 03:25 PM #21
I'm not laughing...
01-07-2009, 04:42 PM #22
01-10-2009, 05:33 PM #23
- Join Date
- Dec 2005
02-04-2009, 10:07 AM #24
I can't help but smirk a little at the fact that many of the folks dismissing this 2 in 2 out thing have something like 8 engine companies, 2 trucks- probably a quint and a battery of chiefs arriving at garage fires. Bang the drum softly gentlemen... The bravado of the dead resulted in the creation of these standards in the first place.
Arguably, the only difference between courage and stupidity is outcome. And, the outcome- good or bad- each year typically gobbles up 150 or so of our own.
The 2 in 2 out rule provides everyone who works within the realms of an IDLH atmosphere the opportunity to justify staffing levels be kept high. I'm pretty sure many of your jobs count on it. So talk nice about it!
Make no mistake, I respect aggressive, "in-yo' face" tactics. But I also respect that a firefighter get the opportunity to come home from every job and hammer on his keyboard about how tough he is at the end of the day.Ian "Eno" McLeod
02-04-2009, 06:42 PM #25
- Join Date
- Aug 2007
Additionally, this rule seems to have very little effect on staffing levels for many of us. The rule is simply not a springboard to achieving 4 person staffing for responding companies in many communities. Many of our administrations will not give us that type of staffing, so compliance often means waiting "minutes" for another unit to arrive instead of being able to "get to work" immediately upon arrival.
In my experience, sometimes it's actually "safer" to just put the fire out rather than wait those extra minutes just for another person to arrive and allow the fire to grow & possibly extend during that time.
There's also been studies done (by Phoenix and Seattle I believe) on what it takes to perform a firefighter rescue. If I'm not mistaken, they determined on average that something like 12 firefighters were necessary to rescue a single downed firefighter. So that kind of adds to the "joke" in that we have a rule that says having 2 outside is ok when our practice shows it needs to be much more if they were actually needed.
I'm not sure about what point you were trying to make regarding "courage and stupidity" and what appeared to be a reference to LODDs. Staffing is often mentioned as a contributing factor in some LODDs, however in the reports I've read, the staffing issue has been related to overall low fireground staffing, not specifically 2in/2out non-compliance.
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