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Thread: "2 in 2 Out"

  1. #21
    Forum Member SoWalProFire's Avatar
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    Wink I'm not laughing...

    Quote Originally Posted by MemphisE34a View Post
    2 in / 2 out is a joke!!
    I almost didn't dignify this post with a reply but, I don't want other obvious newbies to read this and believe that there is a significant contingent of firefighters who actually subscribe to this kind of idiocy.

    "2 in and 2 out" is the culmination of many years of toil, heartache, and tears of dedicated firefighters who became galvanized to the fight of developing and implementing this standard because of the pain associated with helplessly watching their brothers and sisters die in fires because there simply were not enough people on scene to prevent it.

    Your comment is an affront to every one of those individuals as well as every other firefighter who actually gives a damn about anything other than his own need for the false glory he feels when he stupidly races in to a burning structure by himself.

    I do not mean to impede your right to advertise yourself as an uneducated, cretinous neophyte. (you've done quite a good job with that so far, and I am sure your reply to this will expound upon your talent in this area) However, just in case you were unaware of how you were coming off, I thought it only neighborly to inform you.

    My sincere hope is that you are not in any position of leadership in your department (de facto or official). Attitudes like yours only serve to keep our industry in the dark ages and prevent us, as a group, from educating the tax payers about the importance of utilizing their money in ways that best help us serve them in their times of need. More staffing means more lives saved. Both civilian and servant.

    You should probably forgo your next promotional testing opportunity until you have had time to do a little research. You should start with reading as many Line Of Duty Death reports as you can get your hands on. Paying special attention to those which reflect causes related to under staffing. You should probably also wait a few years until you have some experience in the service (if you live that long).

    There is nothing funny about not having enough help to rescue a downed firefighter.

    Most Sincerely,


  2. #22
    Forum Member SoWalProFire's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cubbie View Post
    I think your missing my point!

    If you have a firefighter killed in the line of duty. There is a very good chance that your department and the individual fire officers on the scene of the incident will be sued.

    If you are sued the lawyer for the other side is going to present to the jury the OSHA standard that deals with 2 in 2 out. The lawyer is going to present to the jury the NFPA standard that deals with 2 in 2 out.

    It is not going to matter at all that your state legislature did or did not has passed any law adopting OSHA or NFPA.

    The jury is going to be told that NFPA standards are ďconsensus standardsĒ. What that means in the civil court system of every state in the USA is that consensus standards have the same weight as a law passed by your legislature. The jury is going to hear that the OSHA rules were adopted by the US Congress to prevent line of duty deaths of firefighters.

    Then the jury is going to hear about how you were negligence for failing to follow standards. The jury is going hear how your negligence in failing to follow a nationally accepted consensus standard resulted in the death of a brave firefighter who had dedicated his life to the community he served. The jury is going hear about how that firefighter would be here today had you followed the 2 in 2 rule. There will be no distinction in the eyes of the jury between volunteer or career firefighter because there is not distinction made by OSHA or NFPA.

    Now there is a big different between the criminal court system and the civil court system.
    The criminal court system requires that the jury have a 12 out of 12 vote to find you guilty. In a civil court case itís a majority vote system that finds you guilty. If 7 out of 12 juries votes guilty you lose.

    Now whats really great about this forum is that you dont have to agree with me. I wish you the best of luck if you get sued.

    Very well put, brother.

    In this litigious era it is not hard to understand why every month, there is more and more case law to reinforce your points.

    Each of your points offers us another piece of ground to stand on when we attempt to negotiate for more staffing.

  3. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by firefuss View Post
    only if you skip too, then I'd be jealous.
    sadly no skipping. haha

  4. #24
    MembersZone Subscriber Eno305's Avatar
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    Cool

    I can't help but smirk a little at the fact that many of the folks dismissing this 2 in 2 out thing have something like 8 engine companies, 2 trucks- probably a quint and a battery of chiefs arriving at garage fires. Bang the drum softly gentlemen... The bravado of the dead resulted in the creation of these standards in the first place.

    Arguably, the only difference between courage and stupidity is outcome. And, the outcome- good or bad- each year typically gobbles up 150 or so of our own.

    The 2 in 2 out rule provides everyone who works within the realms of an IDLH atmosphere the opportunity to justify staffing levels be kept high. I'm pretty sure many of your jobs count on it. So talk nice about it!

    Make no mistake, I respect aggressive, "in-yo' face" tactics. But I also respect that a firefighter get the opportunity to come home from every job and hammer on his keyboard about how tough he is at the end of the day.
    Ian "Eno" McLeod

  5. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eno305 View Post
    I can't help but smirk a little at the fact that many of the folks dismissing this 2 in 2 out thing have something like 8 engine companies, 2 trucks- probably a quint and a battery of chiefs arriving at garage fires. Bang the drum softly gentlemen... The bravado of the dead resulted in the creation of these standards in the first place.

    Arguably, the only difference between courage and stupidity is outcome. And, the outcome- good or bad- each year typically gobbles up 150 or so of our own.

    The 2 in 2 out rule provides everyone who works within the realms of an IDLH atmosphere the opportunity to justify staffing levels be kept high. I'm pretty sure many of your jobs count on it. So talk nice about it!

    Make no mistake, I respect aggressive, "in-yo' face" tactics. But I also respect that a firefighter get the opportunity to come home from every job and hammer on his keyboard about how tough he is at the end of the day.
    To a certain extent, 2in/2out is a joke. But the "joke" may not be what you are thinking it is. The concept of establishing a staffing rule like this is absolutely a worthwhile thing. The "joke" comes when you look at what the actual effect of the rule is for the fire service. Enforcement is pretty much entirely a reactive situation and generally only occurs if there is an "incident" of some sorts.

    Additionally, this rule seems to have very little effect on staffing levels for many of us. The rule is simply not a springboard to achieving 4 person staffing for responding companies in many communities. Many of our administrations will not give us that type of staffing, so compliance often means waiting "minutes" for another unit to arrive instead of being able to "get to work" immediately upon arrival.

    In my experience, sometimes it's actually "safer" to just put the fire out rather than wait those extra minutes just for another person to arrive and allow the fire to grow & possibly extend during that time.

    There's also been studies done (by Phoenix and Seattle I believe) on what it takes to perform a firefighter rescue. If I'm not mistaken, they determined on average that something like 12 firefighters were necessary to rescue a single downed firefighter. So that kind of adds to the "joke" in that we have a rule that says having 2 outside is ok when our practice shows it needs to be much more if they were actually needed.

    I'm not sure about what point you were trying to make regarding "courage and stupidity" and what appeared to be a reference to LODDs. Staffing is often mentioned as a contributing factor in some LODDs, however in the reports I've read, the staffing issue has been related to overall low fireground staffing, not specifically 2in/2out non-compliance.

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