Thread: "2 in 2 Out"

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    Default "2 in 2 Out"

    Does anyone have any information on the "2 in 2 Out" law and if it applies to volunteers? I am a member of a Combination Dept as one of the Paid Firefighters and we seem to have a problem with some of our volunteers complying with the 2 in 2 out rule. The volunteer Fire Chief believes that this law does not apply to them. Please let me know if this is true or not.

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    Seriously?

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    Yes it applies to volunteers. Federal guidelines, regulations, and laws make no distinctions between career or volunteer. Everyone must comply.

    When fire is cried and danger is neigh,
    "God and the firemen" is the people's cry;
    But when 'tis out and all things righted,
    God is forgotten and the firemen slighted.
    ~Author unknown, from The Fireman's Journal, 18 Oct 1879

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    Quote Originally Posted by MWFD219 View Post
    Does anyone have any information on the "2 in 2 Out" law and if it applies to volunteers? I am a member of a Combination Dept as one of the Paid Firefighters and we seem to have a problem with some of our volunteers complying with the 2 in 2 out rule. The volunteer Fire Chief believes that this law does not apply to them. Please let me know if this is true or not.
    LAW? I do not know about that. If you are talking about fireground free-lancing many departments do it... Is it right no... but as for 2 in 2 out being a law it is an NFPA Standard and depending if your state has accepted this STANDARD or REGULATION as a LAW then yes if not followed and something happens you or the ff's at fault may have charges... Does anyone regulate this? Probably not... if it is happening on your department then it is up to the SR. members of the department to take control

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    NFPA 1710- Career depts.

    NFPA 1720- Volunteer depts.
    "Loyalty Above all Else. Except Honor."

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    Quote Originally Posted by detroitfire1552 View Post
    LAW? I do not know about that. If you are talking about fireground free-lancing many departments do it... Is it right no... but as for 2 in 2 out being a law it is an NFPA Standard and depending if your state has accepted this STANDARD or REGULATION as a LAW then yes if not followed and something happens you or the ff's at fault may have charges... Does anyone regulate this? Probably not... if it is happening on your department then it is up to the SR. members of the department to take control
    I think your missing my point!

    If you have a firefighter killed in the line of duty. There is a very good chance that your department and the individual fire officers on the scene of the incident will be sued.

    If you are sued the lawyer for the other side is going to present to the jury the OSHA standard that deals with 2 in 2 out. The lawyer is going to present to the jury the NFPA standard that deals with 2 in 2 out.

    It is not going to matter at all that your state legislature did or did not has passed any law adopting OSHA or NFPA.

    The jury is going to be told that NFPA standards are “consensus standards”. What that means in the civil court system of every state in the USA is that consensus standards have the same weight as a law passed by your legislature. The jury is going to hear that the OSHA rules were adopted by the US Congress to prevent line of duty deaths of firefighters.

    Then the jury is going to hear about how you were negligence for failing to follow standards. The jury is going hear how your negligence in failing to follow a nationally accepted consensus standard resulted in the death of a brave firefighter who had dedicated his life to the community he served. The jury is going hear about how that firefighter would be here today had you followed the 2 in 2 rule. There will be no distinction in the eyes of the jury between volunteer or career firefighter because there is not distinction made by OSHA or NFPA.

    Now there is a big different between the criminal court system and the civil court system.
    The criminal court system requires that the jury have a 12 out of 12 vote to find you guilty. In a civil court case it’s a majority vote system that finds you guilty. If 7 out of 12 juries votes guilty you lose.

    Now whats really great about this forum is that you dont have to agree with me. I wish you the best of luck if you get sued.

    When fire is cried and danger is neigh,
    "God and the firemen" is the people's cry;
    But when 'tis out and all things righted,
    God is forgotten and the firemen slighted.
    ~Author unknown, from The Fireman's Journal, 18 Oct 1879

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    Default It is a Federal OSHA regulation

    ... request by the International Association of Fire Fighters (IAFF) for a clarification of OSHA respiratory protection regulation 29 CFR 1910.134. This section of the Code of Federal Regulations covered industrial employees operating in confined spaces, toxic environments, or oxygen-deficient atmospheres. These work areas are classified as immediately dangerous to life and health (IDLH).

    OSHA ruled in 1996 that fire fighters working within a structure fire were operating in an IDLH atmosphere. Fire departments must comply with 29 CFR 1910.134 while self-contained breathing apparatus is being used. A minimum of two fire fighters enter the IDLH area together and remain in visual or voice contact with one another at all times.

    In addition, at least two properly equipped and trained fire fighters must:
    • Be positioned outside the IDLH atmosphere
    • Account for the interior teams
    • Remain capable of rescue of the interior team or teams

    This interpretation became known as the two-in-two-out rule and evolved into the Rapid Intervention Team concept that was incorporated into NFPA 1500.

    taken from Fire Officer: Principles and Practice (2006) NFPA/Jones and Bartlett

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    Default 2 in 2 out

    "2 In 2 Out" applies to all fire departments no matter whether the department is volunteer, combination, or career. A fire in a building does not discriminate! The only time "2 In 2 Out" can be forgone is in the event of a KNOWN and VIABLE life within the structure. However, make no mistake about it, "2 In 2 Out" is not a RIT. Both members assigned to the "2 In 2 Out" function shall be able to affect a rescue if needed. I work in a combination department where following this law has been a challenge. Here is how we handle that law. We assign one member of the Rescue to the front door to keep track who who enters the structure as an outside function. He/She is packed-up and ready to go in the event of having to affect a rescue if needed. Our other member is the Attack Truck operator. He/She shall have an SCBA at the ready. That team is to be relieved by a RIT as soon as manpower is sufficient enough to staff. If we do not have the law covered, we DO NOT commit members into the building. This is not always a popular SOP, however, it is the LAW, and all departments must follow it.

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    I believe we had this discussion recently where I work. From what I remember hearing, "true" volunteer departments, meaning that those members must not receive any type of compensation, "gifts" i.e. department t-shirts, or ANY money or other money equivalents, are exempt from 2-in-2 out.

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    Quote Originally Posted by mwoody View Post
    I believe we had this discussion recently where I work. From what I remember hearing, "true" volunteer departments, meaning that those members must not receive any type of compensation, "gifts" i.e. department t-shirts, or ANY money or other money equivalents, are exempt from 2-in-2 out.
    No one is exempt. 2 in 2 out is the law not a suggestion or recommendation. It is a mandate for all departments with no exceptions. You must understand that if you violate this law and you get hurt. You will have voided workmen compensation benefits. Violate this law and die. Your family will lose state and federal death benefits. The denied benefits claim for your family will be base on your own negligence for violating the law.

    These volunteer departments need to put this myth that they are exempt behind them. No one is exempt

    When fire is cried and danger is neigh,
    "God and the firemen" is the people's cry;
    But when 'tis out and all things righted,
    God is forgotten and the firemen slighted.
    ~Author unknown, from The Fireman's Journal, 18 Oct 1879

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    Quote Originally Posted by mwoody View Post
    I believe we had this discussion recently where I work. From what I remember hearing, "true" volunteer departments, meaning that those members must not receive any type of compensation, "gifts" i.e. department t-shirts, or ANY money or other money equivalents, are exempt from 2-in-2 out.
    A common misconception from some is that volunteer's are just that...volunteer's. Nothing could be further from the truth. All volunteer's in the eyes of the government agencies and courts are basically uncompensated workers. What this means is that OSHA, NFPA, and every other acronym that applies to volunteer departments just as they apply to paid departments. A couple of examples; a volunteer department refuses to admit a candidate because she is a female. This could be a civil rights violation as would apply to a paid department. A volunteer department doesn't use an accountability system and a firefighter dies in a structure fire. Volunteer department could be fined by OSHA and could be held criminally and civilly negligent based on NFPA consensus standards. Do you see where this going? Volunteer's are simply at will uncompensated employees.

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    2 in / 2 out is a joke!!
    RK
    cell #901-494-9437

    Management is making sure things are done right. Leadership is doing the right thing. The fire service needs alot more leaders and a lot less managers.

    "Everyone goes home" is the mantra for the pussification of the modern, American fire service.


    Comments made are my own. They do not represent the official position or opinion of the Fire Department or the City for which I am employed. In fact, they are normally exactly the opposite.

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    2in 2 out is a great rule! Thanks NFPA and OSHA for all that you do. If nothing else you insure that the lawyers, and safety wussies will always have a job. Plus the 2 in 2 out rule gives the yard breathers an excuse to stand around outside and smoke. HAHAHAHA!

    Stay Safe.
    Bull
    Stay Safe
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    I know of NO fire dept. that actually (uses) 2in and 2 out.
    Most just ge tthe job done and hardly EVER have enough on scene to do the whole 2 in and 2 out thing.
    It just doesnt happen.

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    Quote Originally Posted by MemphisE34a View Post
    2 in / 2 out is a joke!!
    Yep. it isnt practical and we laugh at it.

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    Gotta agree, great in theory, tough in practice.

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    Quote Originally Posted by FFPCogs08 View Post
    Gotta agree, great in theory, tough in practice.
    Tough in practice but if you can't come up with two people to pack up and go in at the same time you need to look at your staffing situation. We are volunteers and it's 2 in or you don't go in. Never once have we had a problem with this.

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    Quote Originally Posted by firefuss View Post
    do you hold hands too?
    ocassionally, why jealous?

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    Quote Originally Posted by S8ER95Z View Post
    Tough in practice but if you can't come up with two people to pack up and go in at the same time you need to look at your staffing situation. We are volunteers and it's 2 in or you don't go in. Never once have we had a problem with this.
    yeah and how many fires have you put out

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    Quote Originally Posted by gcannon View Post
    yeah and how many fires have you put out
    All of the ones I have responded to. It's not a game or a contest so I don't exactly keep a score count to recite off when asked.

    You can feel free to disagree... my department just happens to follow the standard and we have enough people to do it.
    Last edited by S8ER95Z; 01-07-2009 at 11:04 AM.

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    Wink I'm not laughing...

    Quote Originally Posted by MemphisE34a View Post
    2 in / 2 out is a joke!!
    I almost didn't dignify this post with a reply but, I don't want other obvious newbies to read this and believe that there is a significant contingent of firefighters who actually subscribe to this kind of idiocy.

    "2 in and 2 out" is the culmination of many years of toil, heartache, and tears of dedicated firefighters who became galvanized to the fight of developing and implementing this standard because of the pain associated with helplessly watching their brothers and sisters die in fires because there simply were not enough people on scene to prevent it.

    Your comment is an affront to every one of those individuals as well as every other firefighter who actually gives a damn about anything other than his own need for the false glory he feels when he stupidly races in to a burning structure by himself.

    I do not mean to impede your right to advertise yourself as an uneducated, cretinous neophyte. (you've done quite a good job with that so far, and I am sure your reply to this will expound upon your talent in this area) However, just in case you were unaware of how you were coming off, I thought it only neighborly to inform you.

    My sincere hope is that you are not in any position of leadership in your department (de facto or official). Attitudes like yours only serve to keep our industry in the dark ages and prevent us, as a group, from educating the tax payers about the importance of utilizing their money in ways that best help us serve them in their times of need. More staffing means more lives saved. Both civilian and servant.

    You should probably forgo your next promotional testing opportunity until you have had time to do a little research. You should start with reading as many Line Of Duty Death reports as you can get your hands on. Paying special attention to those which reflect causes related to under staffing. You should probably also wait a few years until you have some experience in the service (if you live that long).

    There is nothing funny about not having enough help to rescue a downed firefighter.

    Most Sincerely,

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    Quote Originally Posted by cubbie View Post
    I think your missing my point!

    If you have a firefighter killed in the line of duty. There is a very good chance that your department and the individual fire officers on the scene of the incident will be sued.

    If you are sued the lawyer for the other side is going to present to the jury the OSHA standard that deals with 2 in 2 out. The lawyer is going to present to the jury the NFPA standard that deals with 2 in 2 out.

    It is not going to matter at all that your state legislature did or did not has passed any law adopting OSHA or NFPA.

    The jury is going to be told that NFPA standards are “consensus standards”. What that means in the civil court system of every state in the USA is that consensus standards have the same weight as a law passed by your legislature. The jury is going to hear that the OSHA rules were adopted by the US Congress to prevent line of duty deaths of firefighters.

    Then the jury is going to hear about how you were negligence for failing to follow standards. The jury is going hear how your negligence in failing to follow a nationally accepted consensus standard resulted in the death of a brave firefighter who had dedicated his life to the community he served. The jury is going hear about how that firefighter would be here today had you followed the 2 in 2 rule. There will be no distinction in the eyes of the jury between volunteer or career firefighter because there is not distinction made by OSHA or NFPA.

    Now there is a big different between the criminal court system and the civil court system.
    The criminal court system requires that the jury have a 12 out of 12 vote to find you guilty. In a civil court case it’s a majority vote system that finds you guilty. If 7 out of 12 juries votes guilty you lose.

    Now whats really great about this forum is that you dont have to agree with me. I wish you the best of luck if you get sued.

    Very well put, brother.

    In this litigious era it is not hard to understand why every month, there is more and more case law to reinforce your points.

    Each of your points offers us another piece of ground to stand on when we attempt to negotiate for more staffing.

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    Quote Originally Posted by firefuss View Post
    only if you skip too, then I'd be jealous.
    sadly no skipping. haha

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    I can't help but smirk a little at the fact that many of the folks dismissing this 2 in 2 out thing have something like 8 engine companies, 2 trucks- probably a quint and a battery of chiefs arriving at garage fires. Bang the drum softly gentlemen... The bravado of the dead resulted in the creation of these standards in the first place.

    Arguably, the only difference between courage and stupidity is outcome. And, the outcome- good or bad- each year typically gobbles up 150 or so of our own.

    The 2 in 2 out rule provides everyone who works within the realms of an IDLH atmosphere the opportunity to justify staffing levels be kept high. I'm pretty sure many of your jobs count on it. So talk nice about it!

    Make no mistake, I respect aggressive, "in-yo' face" tactics. But I also respect that a firefighter get the opportunity to come home from every job and hammer on his keyboard about how tough he is at the end of the day.
    Ian "Eno" McLeod

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    Quote Originally Posted by Eno305 View Post
    I can't help but smirk a little at the fact that many of the folks dismissing this 2 in 2 out thing have something like 8 engine companies, 2 trucks- probably a quint and a battery of chiefs arriving at garage fires. Bang the drum softly gentlemen... The bravado of the dead resulted in the creation of these standards in the first place.

    Arguably, the only difference between courage and stupidity is outcome. And, the outcome- good or bad- each year typically gobbles up 150 or so of our own.

    The 2 in 2 out rule provides everyone who works within the realms of an IDLH atmosphere the opportunity to justify staffing levels be kept high. I'm pretty sure many of your jobs count on it. So talk nice about it!

    Make no mistake, I respect aggressive, "in-yo' face" tactics. But I also respect that a firefighter get the opportunity to come home from every job and hammer on his keyboard about how tough he is at the end of the day.
    To a certain extent, 2in/2out is a joke. But the "joke" may not be what you are thinking it is. The concept of establishing a staffing rule like this is absolutely a worthwhile thing. The "joke" comes when you look at what the actual effect of the rule is for the fire service. Enforcement is pretty much entirely a reactive situation and generally only occurs if there is an "incident" of some sorts.

    Additionally, this rule seems to have very little effect on staffing levels for many of us. The rule is simply not a springboard to achieving 4 person staffing for responding companies in many communities. Many of our administrations will not give us that type of staffing, so compliance often means waiting "minutes" for another unit to arrive instead of being able to "get to work" immediately upon arrival.

    In my experience, sometimes it's actually "safer" to just put the fire out rather than wait those extra minutes just for another person to arrive and allow the fire to grow & possibly extend during that time.

    There's also been studies done (by Phoenix and Seattle I believe) on what it takes to perform a firefighter rescue. If I'm not mistaken, they determined on average that something like 12 firefighters were necessary to rescue a single downed firefighter. So that kind of adds to the "joke" in that we have a rule that says having 2 outside is ok when our practice shows it needs to be much more if they were actually needed.

    I'm not sure about what point you were trying to make regarding "courage and stupidity" and what appeared to be a reference to LODDs. Staffing is often mentioned as a contributing factor in some LODDs, however in the reports I've read, the staffing issue has been related to overall low fireground staffing, not specifically 2in/2out non-compliance.

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