"2 in 2 Out"

[MWFD219]

Does anyone have any information on the "2 in 2 Out" law and if it applies to volunteers? I am a member of a Combination Dept as one of the Paid Firefighters and we seem to have a problem with some of our volunteers complying with the 2 in 2 out rule. The volunteer Fire Chief believes that this law does not apply to them. Please let me know if this is true or not.

[Geinandputitout]

Seriously?

[cubbie]

Yes it applies to volunteers. Federal guidelines, regulations, and laws make no distinctions between career or volunteer. Everyone must comply.

[detroitfire1552]

Does anyone have any information on the "2 in 2 Out" law and if it applies to volunteers? I am a member of a Combination Dept as one of the Paid Firefighters and we seem to have a problem with some of our volunteers complying with the 2 in 2 out rule. The volunteer Fire Chief believes that this law does not apply to them. Please let me know if this is true or not.

LAW? I do not know about that. If you are talking about fireground free-lancing many departments do it... Is it right no... but as for 2 in 2 out being a law it is an NFPA Standard and depending if your state has accepted this STANDARD or REGULATION as a LAW then yes if not followed and something happens you or the ff's at fault may have charges... Does anyone regulate this? Probably not... if it is happening on your department then it is up to the SR. members of the department to take control

[FWDbuff]

NFPA 1710- Career depts.

NFPA 1720- Volunteer depts.

[cubbie]

LAW? I do not know about that. If you are talking about fireground free-lancing many departments do it... Is it right no... but as for 2 in 2 out being a law it is an NFPA Standard and depending if your state has accepted this STANDARD or REGULATION as a LAW then yes if not followed and something happens you or the ff's at fault may have charges... Does anyone regulate this? Probably not... if it is happening on your department then it is up to the SR. members of the department to take control

I think your missing my point!

If you have a firefighter killed in the line of duty. There is a very good chance that your department and the individual fire officers on the scene of the incident will be sued.

If you are sued the lawyer for the other side is going to present to the jury the OSHA standard that deals with 2 in 2 out. The lawyer is going to present to the jury the NFPA standard that deals with 2 in 2 out.

It is not going to matter at all that your state legislature did or did not has passed any law adopting OSHA or NFPA.

The jury is going to be told that NFPA standards are “consensus standards”. What that means in the civil court system of every state in the USA is that consensus standards have the same weight as a law passed by your legislature. The jury is going to hear that the OSHA rules were adopted by the US Congress to prevent line of duty deaths of firefighters.

Then the jury is going to hear about how you were negligence for failing to follow standards. The jury is going hear how your negligence in failing to follow a nationally accepted consensus standard resulted in the death of a brave firefighter who had dedicated his life to the community he served. The jury is going hear about how that firefighter would be here today had you followed the 2 in 2 rule. There will be no distinction in the eyes of the jury between volunteer or career firefighter because there is not distinction made by OSHA or NFPA.

Now there is a big different between the criminal court system and the civil court system.
The criminal court system requires that the jury have a 12 out of 12 vote to find you guilty. In a civil court case it’s a majority vote system that finds you guilty. If 7 out of 12 juries votes guilty you lose.

Now whats really great about this forum is that you dont have to agree with me. I wish you the best of luck if you get sued.

[MikeWard]

... request by the International Association of Fire Fighters (IAFF) for a clarification of OSHA respiratory protection regulation 29 CFR 1910.134. This section of the Code of Federal Regulations covered industrial employees operating in confined spaces, toxic environments, or oxygen-deficient atmospheres. These work areas are classified as immediately dangerous to life and health (IDLH).

OSHA ruled in 1996 that fire fighters working within a structure fire were operating in an IDLH atmosphere. Fire departments must comply with 29 CFR 1910.134 while self-contained breathing apparatus is being used. A minimum of two fire fighters enter the IDLH area together and remain in visual or voice contact with one another at all times.

In addition, at least two properly equipped and trained fire fighters must:
• Be positioned outside the IDLH atmosphere
• Account for the interior teams
• Remain capable of rescue of the interior team or teams

This interpretation became known as the two-in-two-out rule and evolved into the Rapid Intervention Team concept that was incorporated into NFPA 1500.

taken from Fire Officer: Principles and Practice (2006) NFPA/Jones and Bartlett

[BFDLt53]

"2 In 2 Out" applies to all fire departments no matter whether the department is volunteer, combination, or career. A fire in a building does not discriminate! The only time "2 In 2 Out" can be forgone is in the event of a KNOWN and VIABLE life within the structure. However, make no mistake about it, "2 In 2 Out" is not a RIT. Both members assigned to the "2 In 2 Out" function shall be able to affect a rescue if needed. I work in a combination department where following this law has been a challenge. Here is how we handle that law. We assign one member of the Rescue to the front door to keep track who who enters the structure as an outside function. He/She is packed-up and ready to go in the event of having to affect a rescue if needed. Our other member is the Attack Truck operator. He/She shall have an SCBA at the ready. That team is to be relieved by a RIT as soon as manpower is sufficient enough to staff. If we do not have the law covered, we DO NOT commit members into the building. This is not always a popular SOP, however, it is the LAW, and all departments must follow it.

[mwoody]

I believe we had this discussion recently where I work. From what I remember hearing, "true" volunteer departments, meaning that those members must not receive any type of compensation, "gifts" i.e. department t-shirts, or ANY money or other money equivalents, are exempt from 2-in-2 out.

[cubbie]

I believe we had this discussion recently where I work. From what I remember hearing, "true" volunteer departments, meaning that those members must not receive any type of compensation, "gifts" i.e. department t-shirts, or ANY money or other money equivalents, are exempt from 2-in-2 out.

No one is exempt. 2 in 2 out is the law not a suggestion or recommendation. It is a mandate for all departments with no exceptions. You must understand that if you violate this law and you get hurt. You will have voided workmen compensation benefits. Violate this law and die. Your family will lose state and federal death benefits. The denied benefits claim for your family will be base on your own negligence for violating the law.

These volunteer departments need to put this myth that they are exempt behind them. No one is exempt

[jlcooke3]

I believe we had this discussion recently where I work. From what I remember hearing, "true" volunteer departments, meaning that those members must not receive any type of compensation, "gifts" i.e. department t-shirts, or ANY money or other money equivalents, are exempt from 2-in-2 out.

A common misconception from some is that volunteer's are just that...volunteer's. Nothing could be further from the truth. All volunteer's in the eyes of the government agencies and courts are basically uncompensated workers. What this means is that OSHA, NFPA, and every other acronym that applies to volunteer departments just as they apply to paid departments. A couple of examples; a volunteer department refuses to admit a candidate because she is a female. This could be a civil rights violation as would apply to a paid department. A volunteer department doesn't use an accountability system and a firefighter dies in a structure fire. Volunteer department could be fined by OSHA and could be held criminally and civilly negligent based on NFPA consensus standards. Do you see where this going? Volunteer's are simply at will uncompensated employees.

[MemphisE34a]

2 in / 2 out is a joke!!

[BULL321]

2in 2 out is a great rule! Thanks NFPA and OSHA for all that you do. If nothing else you insure that the lawyers, and safety wussies will always have a job. Plus the 2 in 2 out rule gives the yard breathers an excuse to stand around outside and smoke. HAHAHAHA!

Stay Safe.
Bull

[alecshawn1]

I know of NO fire dept. that actually (uses) 2in and 2 out.
Most just ge tthe job done and hardly EVER have enough on scene to do the whole 2 in and 2 out thing.
It just doesnt happen.

[alecshawn1]

2 in / 2 out is a joke!!

Yep. it isnt practical and we laugh at it.

[FFPCogs08]

Gotta agree, great in theory, tough in practice.

[S8ER95Z]

Gotta agree, great in theory, tough in practice.

Tough in practice but if you can't come up with two people to pack up and go in at the same time you need to look at your staffing situation. We are volunteers and it's 2 in or you don't go in. Never once have we had a problem with this.

[S8ER95Z]

do you hold hands too?

ocassionally, why jealous?

[gcannon]

Tough in practice but if you can't come up with two people to pack up and go in at the same time you need to look at your staffing situation. We are volunteers and it's 2 in or you don't go in. Never once have we had a problem with this.

yeah and how many fires have you put out

[S8ER95Z]

yeah and how many fires have you put out

All of the ones I have responded to. It's not a game or a contest so I don't exactly keep a score count to recite off when asked.

You can feel free to disagree... my department just happens to follow the standard and we have enough people to do it.