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    Post Refurbed Scope -VS- New Tower Ladder !

    My plan to have our Mack/Baker Aerialscope refurbed/remounted was turned down by other members of the department and by the fire commisoners.Instead there will be a special fire district election to be held on Sept 13, 2008 to approve or disapprove the following: Shall the fire district be authorized to purchase a new Tower Ladder Quint fire truck in 2009 and issue bonds in an amount not to exceed $ 1,025,000 to finance such purchase.Now it will be up to the voters to pass or turn down the new apparatus, a refurb/remount could have saved the town $ 300,000 !!
    Last edited by WoodbridgeFFII; 08-30-2008 at 12:16 PM.

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    How many years would that refurb of an obsolete truck be good for?
    How many years expect from a new truck?

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    Quote Originally Posted by WoodbridgeFFII View Post
    My plan to have our Mack/Baker Aerialscope refurbed/remounted was turned down by other members of the department and by the fire commisoners.Instead there will be a special fire district election to be held on Sept 13, 2008 to approve or disapprove the following: Shall the fire district be authorized to purchase a new Tower Ladder Quint fire truck in 2009 and issue bonds in an amount not to exceed $ 1,025,000 to finance such purchase.Now it will be up to the voters to pass or turn down the new apparatus, a refurb/remount could have saved the town $ 300,000 !!
    Thats a shame. A virtually indestructible piece of equipment, who's value has been proven time and time again in the fire service, is probably being cast aside by a bunch of kids who don't know any better, just because they want a shiny new piece.

    Personally, I would have sent it to Interstate Truck Equipment (formerly Hagerstown Mack) and had it refurbed, keeping the CF chassis and cab- another proven piece of equipment in the fire service. Refurb that thing front to back, top to bottom. Repair/replace the engine, trans, & driveline. Upgrade....Add an engine brake if it isnt already on there....Rebuild the cab and body..... cut out old steel & replace...repaint....Have the scope assembly rebuilt by Seagrave....Recertified....And there you have it.

    Ah but what do I know........
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    Quote Originally Posted by neiowa View Post
    How many years would that refurb of an obsolete truck be good for?
    How many years expect from a new truck?
    Obsolete? How do you figure?
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    Quote Originally Posted by FWDbuff View Post
    Thats a shame. A virtually indestructible piece of equipment, who's value has been proven time and time again in the fire service, is probably being cast aside by a bunch of kids who don't know any better, just because they want a shiny new piece.

    Personally, I would have sent it to Interstate Truck Equipment (formerly Hagerstown Mack) and had it refurbed, keeping the CF chassis and cab- another proven piece of equipment in the fire service. Refurb that thing front to back, top to bottom. Repair/replace the engine, trans, & driveline. Upgrade....Add an engine brake if it isnt already on there....Rebuild the cab and body..... cut out old steel & replace...repaint....Have the scope assembly rebuilt by Seagrave....Recertified....And there you have it.

    Ah but what do I know........


    I gotta agree with FWD on this one..... You can't beat a scope.... and you can't beat and old CF. Scope Re-Chassis are becomming more popular. Not only do you get a new rig (for the most part) you get a scope for alot less $$$
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    With the push for consolidation and shared services these days will you have trouble getting the public support for the purchase with so many ladders and quints already in the township?

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    [QUOTE=neiowa;983483]How many years would that refurb of an obsolete truck be good for?
    How many years expect from a new truck?[/ Aerial scope's are the only Aerial's made for the long haul. If not then I don't thank FDNY wouldn't have used them at all.

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    Post Refurbed Scope

    The Mack/Baker Aerialscope had a total rebuild done back in 1985 at the Baker plant, the fire officers want a truck with a Pump,water tank , and a ladder that can be climbed to get to and from a rooftop or window. they are looking at Sutphen , KME ,so far. The truck must be the right size to fit into the apparatus bay!

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    Remounting a boom that is already working for you is the way to go. As for it's obsolecense... Woodbridge never said what year the truck was, maybe it is a 2006 that had an accident or a fire? Even if it is off a rig from the 80's it is well worth re mounting on a new chassis. I am not a big fan of the refurb in this type of rig, I think you can get more bang for the buck remounting the boom on a new truck.

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    We have a 1981 Scope that is beat to s@*t. I love the truck, and it is a true work horse, but it just does not hold up anymore. Every year the ladder testing company finds welds that are cracked. There are times when I am driving it that I want to get out and just walk because it would be faster. It also leaks about every fluid that is in it. Sadly the truck is just tired. It only has a few more months of service.

    On the other side I would have loved it rebuilt, and remounted. I love what the Hershey Pa fire department did. I don't know if it would have been possible though with our low bridges. Our ladder on top of the scope now is mounted upside down.
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    Quote Originally Posted by jfTL41 View Post
    Remounting a boom that is already working for you is the way to go. As for it's obsolecense... Woodbridge never said what year the truck was, maybe it is a 2006 that had an accident or a fire? Even if it is off a rig from the 80's it is well worth re mounting on a new chassis. I am not a big fan of the refurb in this type of rig, I think you can get more bang for the buck remounting the boom on a new truck.
    The Mack/Scope is a 75' model that was built in 1972 and had a total refurb done back in 1985, it was sold to us from Baker in 1986 as a remanufactured Aerialscope apparatus costing $ 225,000. Our department got there moneys worth out of this truck. Also the department did not want to have the only aerial apparatus out of service for up to 1 year during the rebuild/rechassis and have a 10 - 15 minute wait for a out of town ladder company to respond !
    Last edited by WoodbridgeFFII; 09-01-2008 at 11:32 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by WoodbridgeFFII View Post
    The Mack/Scope is a 75' model that was built in 1972 and had a total refurb done back in 1985, it was sold to us from Baker in 1986 as a remanufactured Aerialscope apparatus costing $ 225,000. Our department got there moneys worth out of this truck. Also the department did not want to have the only aerial apparatus out of service for up to 1 year during the rebuild/rechassis !
    I lived and served in Middlesex County for 6 years. I think that the worries about the "only" truck company being out of service are a bit misplaced. Keasbey is a small district and there are other aerial apparatus nearby (Perth Amboy, Edison, Woodbridge #1, even South Amboy). There is MUCH duplication of services in this and many other areas of New Jersey.

    That being said, there may have been significant issues with refurbing or remounting an aerial device that had already been remanufactured--either in cost, feasability or both. There may also be operational issues that we don't know about. Maybe they want a quint to run as a first out piece due to limited personnel. Maybe the 'scope isn't well suited to the hazards of the district. We don't know these answers.

    Phil

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    Post Due To Limited Vol personnel !

    Quote Originally Posted by pgoldsmith View Post
    I lived and served in Middlesex County for 6 years. I think that the worries about the "only" truck company being out of service are a bit misplaced. Keasbey is a small district and there are other aerial apparatus nearby (Perth Amboy, Edison, Woodbridge #1, even South Amboy). There is MUCH duplication of services in this and many other areas of New Jersey.

    That being said, there may have been significant issues with refurbing or remounting an aerial device that had already been remanufactured--either in cost, feasability or both. There may also be operational issues that we don't know about. Maybe they want a quint to run as a first out piece due to limited personnel. Maybe the 'scope isn't well suited to the hazards of the district. We don't know these answers.

    Phil
    You hit the nail on the head, when there is a major fire here in Woodbridge twp most or all 9 fire districts respond to the scene for mutial aid. They want a " quint " due to limited personnel or man power during the daytime calls, they won't have to wait for a driver for a engine to drop a 5" LDH line and pump to the Aerialscope. And also the old Mack/Baker boom is going on 36 years of age !
    Last edited by WoodbridgeFFII; 09-01-2008 at 11:37 AM.

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    Because of the way "scopes" are built they are good candidates for a rebuild or mulltiple rebuild/remounts. Essentially a small crane with a bucket on the end. They were/are built for extended service in extreme environments. The fact the FDNY can"t break them is a tribute to this(yeah,I know they've "injured" a few Towers over the years).Compared to a new ladder tower,well sit them side by each and see the differences.The Scope,being a true box design,is stronger. T.C.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rescue101 View Post
    Because of the way "scopes" are built they are good candidates for a rebuild or mulltiple rebuild/remounts. Essentially a small crane with a bucket on the end. They were/are built for extended service in extreme environments. The fact the FDNY can"t break them is a tribute to this(yeah,I know they've "injured" a few Towers over the years).Compared to a new ladder tower,well sit them side by each and see the differences.The Scope,being a true box design,is stronger. T.C.
    Agreed. The scope is one of a kind. I would not even consider refurbing the old Mack chassis though. Still too many old / outdated / unavailable components. If a quint is desired, obviously you could re-furb the boom and re-mount on a new Arrow Xt, Spartan, or Seagrave chassis with a pump. The loss of the ladder truck for a year or so could be handled by a loaner / rental.

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    Quote Originally Posted by FD1976 View Post
    Agreed. The scope is one of a kind. I would not even consider refurbing the old Mack chassis though. Still too many old / outdated / unavailable components. If a quint is desired, obviously you could re-furb the boom and re-mount on a new Arrow Xt, Spartan, or Seagrave chassis with a pump. The loss of the ladder truck for a year or so could be handled by a loaner / rental.
    I am not on the truck commitee but there will be a board of commissioners special meeting tonight,to go over plans to purchase a new tower ladder apparatus and talk about bonds to cover the cost.I do not know if a new Seagrave aerialscope is available with a pump & tank ?

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    Anyone know how Hershey, PA likes the refurb of their Aerialscope? Also did they reuse the body and only replace the chassis or did they replace both?

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    I would think that in these economic times a million dollar plus truck cost in a township with several other aerials nearby would be a very hard sell to the voters. Maybe you are in a better financial position than most of us and you townships voters will think this is the best way for them to proceed. It wouldn't fly in my area.

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    It's my understanding that you now CAN get a 'scope with a pump and a tank(300 gal).At the time I checked,it would be in the million to mil two five range. T.C.

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    Post Low Voter Turnout!

    Quote Originally Posted by islandfire03 View Post
    I would think that in these economic times a million dollar plus truck cost in a township with several other aerials nearby would be a very hard sell to the voters. Maybe you are in a better financial position than most of us and you townships voters will think this is the best way for them to proceed. It wouldn't fly in my area.
    The fire district elections that we have here every year in the month of Feb, for the yearly operating budget & to elect fire commissioners has very few voters that turn out to vote. Most people don't know of any fire district election or care untill there taxes go up then they complain. most of the voters will be firefighters, and a few seniors, etc ! The million dollar truck" bond issue "will be spread out over maybe 15 - 20 years, with a cost of about $ 55,000 per year added to the budget that is in affect now .
    Last edited by WoodbridgeFFII; 09-03-2008 at 07:31 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rescue101 View Post
    It's my understanding that you now CAN get a 'scope with a pump and a tank(300 gal).At the time I checked,it would be in the million to mil two five range. T.C.
    I would like to see our department stay with a Aerialscope product, as I am not on the truck commitee any more, my input go's in one ear and out the other at our fire company meetings !

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    Quote Originally Posted by WoodbridgeFFII View Post
    The fire district elections that we have here every year in the month of Feb, for the yearly operating budget & to elect fire commissioners has very few voters that turn out to vote. Most people don't know of any fire district election or care untill there taxes go up then they complain. most of the voters will be firefighters, and a few seniors, etc ! The million dollar truck" bond issue "will be spread out over maybe 15 - 20 years, with a cost of about $ 55,000 per year added to the budget that is in affect now .
    So basically you have a special election vote to pass the fire budget and hope that nobody notices until after the fact when their taxes go up ?????

    Sure seems like a good way to get shot down next time around.

    55k additional per year on top of existing bonds. That almost 1/2 our entire annual budget.

    Good luck

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    Quote Originally Posted by islandfire03 View Post
    So basically you have a special election vote to pass the fire budget and hope that nobody notices until after the fact when their taxes go up ?????

    Sure seems like a good way to get shot down next time around.

    55k additional per year on top of existing bonds. That almost 1/2 our entire annual budget.

    Good luck
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    Quote Originally Posted by islandfire03 View Post
    So basically you have a special election vote to pass the fire budget and hope that nobody notices until after the fact when their taxes go up ?????

    Sure seems like a good way to get shot down next time around.

    55k additional per year on top of existing bonds. That almost 1/2 our entire annual budget.

    Good luck
    Here in the state of New Jersey all fire district budget elections are held during the month of FEB , every year. a special election to vote for a New Apparatus or building addition etc. can happen any time during the year , but by state law it must be advertized in the local news paper in the public notice section 14-21 days before a election is held.There is nothing to hide from the taxpayers, there is just a very low turnout of voters every time.This year our budget was the lowest in the township of Woodbridge, N.J. at $ 400,000, and other districts with payed guys are at $ 5 -6 million per year. As of the past few years we budget $ 25,000 of capital money towards new apparatus every year, so at $ 55K it will double !

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    OK my bad for not understanding the process in NJ. Still sounds like a tough sell to double the capitol account for the next 20 years without allowing for any additional capitol spending during that period.

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