Why register? ...To Enhance Your Experience
+ Reply to Thread
Page 1 of 3 123 LastLast
Results 1 to 20 of 48
  1. #1
    Forum Member
    Join Date
    Dec 2007
    Location
    Woodbridge Twp , New Jersey
    Posts
    492

    Post Refurbed Scope -VS- New Tower Ladder !

    My plan to have our Mack/Baker Aerialscope refurbed/remounted was turned down by other members of the department and by the fire commisoners.Instead there will be a special fire district election to be held on Sept 13, 2008 to approve or disapprove the following: Shall the fire district be authorized to purchase a new Tower Ladder Quint fire truck in 2009 and issue bonds in an amount not to exceed $ 1,025,000 to finance such purchase.Now it will be up to the voters to pass or turn down the new apparatus, a refurb/remount could have saved the town $ 300,000 !!
    Last edited by WoodbridgeFFII; 08-30-2008 at 12:16 PM.


  2. #2
    MembersZone Subscriber
    Join Date
    Dec 2002
    Location
    Rural Iowa
    Posts
    3,106

    Default

    How many years would that refurb of an obsolete truck be good for?
    How many years expect from a new truck?

  3. #3
    Forum Member FWDbuff's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2003
    Location
    Pee-Ayy!
    Posts
    7,395

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by WoodbridgeFFII View Post
    My plan to have our Mack/Baker Aerialscope refurbed/remounted was turned down by other members of the department and by the fire commisoners.Instead there will be a special fire district election to be held on Sept 13, 2008 to approve or disapprove the following: Shall the fire district be authorized to purchase a new Tower Ladder Quint fire truck in 2009 and issue bonds in an amount not to exceed $ 1,025,000 to finance such purchase.Now it will be up to the voters to pass or turn down the new apparatus, a refurb/remount could have saved the town $ 300,000 !!
    Thats a shame. A virtually indestructible piece of equipment, who's value has been proven time and time again in the fire service, is probably being cast aside by a bunch of kids who don't know any better, just because they want a shiny new piece.

    Personally, I would have sent it to Interstate Truck Equipment (formerly Hagerstown Mack) and had it refurbed, keeping the CF chassis and cab- another proven piece of equipment in the fire service. Refurb that thing front to back, top to bottom. Repair/replace the engine, trans, & driveline. Upgrade....Add an engine brake if it isnt already on there....Rebuild the cab and body..... cut out old steel & replace...repaint....Have the scope assembly rebuilt by Seagrave....Recertified....And there you have it.

    Ah but what do I know........
    "Loyalty Above all Else. Except Honor."

  4. #4
    Forum Member FWDbuff's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2003
    Location
    Pee-Ayy!
    Posts
    7,395

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by neiowa View Post
    How many years would that refurb of an obsolete truck be good for?
    How many years expect from a new truck?
    Obsolete? How do you figure?
    "Loyalty Above all Else. Except Honor."

  5. #5
    Forum Member
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Monroeville, PA USA
    Posts
    327

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by FWDbuff View Post
    Thats a shame. A virtually indestructible piece of equipment, who's value has been proven time and time again in the fire service, is probably being cast aside by a bunch of kids who don't know any better, just because they want a shiny new piece.

    Personally, I would have sent it to Interstate Truck Equipment (formerly Hagerstown Mack) and had it refurbed, keeping the CF chassis and cab- another proven piece of equipment in the fire service. Refurb that thing front to back, top to bottom. Repair/replace the engine, trans, & driveline. Upgrade....Add an engine brake if it isnt already on there....Rebuild the cab and body..... cut out old steel & replace...repaint....Have the scope assembly rebuilt by Seagrave....Recertified....And there you have it.

    Ah but what do I know........


    I gotta agree with FWD on this one..... You can't beat a scope.... and you can't beat and old CF. Scope Re-Chassis are becomming more popular. Not only do you get a new rig (for the most part) you get a scope for alot less $$$
    It takes a little intelligence to enjoy humor,satire & wit, but none to be offended by it.

    It take more than a new Leather Helmet to make you a good officer

  6. #6

    Join Date
    Feb 2008
    Posts
    3

    Default

    With the push for consolidation and shared services these days will you have trouble getting the public support for the purchase with so many ladders and quints already in the township?

  7. #7
    Forum Member
    Join Date
    Jan 2008
    Posts
    198

    Cool

    [QUOTE=neiowa;983483]How many years would that refurb of an obsolete truck be good for?
    How many years expect from a new truck?[/ Aerial scope's are the only Aerial's made for the long haul. If not then I don't thank FDNY wouldn't have used them at all.

  8. #8
    Forum Member
    Join Date
    Dec 2007
    Location
    Woodbridge Twp , New Jersey
    Posts
    492

    Post Refurbed Scope

    The Mack/Baker Aerialscope had a total rebuild done back in 1985 at the Baker plant, the fire officers want a truck with a Pump,water tank , and a ladder that can be climbed to get to and from a rooftop or window. they are looking at Sutphen , KME ,so far. The truck must be the right size to fit into the apparatus bay!

  9. #9
    MembersZone Subscriber jfTL41's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2002
    Location
    NY
    Posts
    573

    Default

    Remounting a boom that is already working for you is the way to go. As for it's obsolecense... Woodbridge never said what year the truck was, maybe it is a 2006 that had an accident or a fire? Even if it is off a rig from the 80's it is well worth re mounting on a new chassis. I am not a big fan of the refurb in this type of rig, I think you can get more bang for the buck remounting the boom on a new truck.

  10. #10
    Some Guy
    Join Date
    Sep 1999
    Location
    I don't know but I here laughing.
    Posts
    1,001

    Default

    We have a 1981 Scope that is beat to s@*t. I love the truck, and it is a true work horse, but it just does not hold up anymore. Every year the ladder testing company finds welds that are cracked. There are times when I am driving it that I want to get out and just walk because it would be faster. It also leaks about every fluid that is in it. Sadly the truck is just tired. It only has a few more months of service.

    On the other side I would have loved it rebuilt, and remounted. I love what the Hershey Pa fire department did. I don't know if it would have been possible though with our low bridges. Our ladder on top of the scope now is mounted upside down.
    This space for rent

  11. #11
    Forum Member
    Join Date
    Dec 2007
    Location
    Woodbridge Twp , New Jersey
    Posts
    492

    Post

    Quote Originally Posted by jfTL41 View Post
    Remounting a boom that is already working for you is the way to go. As for it's obsolecense... Woodbridge never said what year the truck was, maybe it is a 2006 that had an accident or a fire? Even if it is off a rig from the 80's it is well worth re mounting on a new chassis. I am not a big fan of the refurb in this type of rig, I think you can get more bang for the buck remounting the boom on a new truck.
    The Mack/Scope is a 75' model that was built in 1972 and had a total refurb done back in 1985, it was sold to us from Baker in 1986 as a remanufactured Aerialscope apparatus costing $ 225,000. Our department got there moneys worth out of this truck. Also the department did not want to have the only aerial apparatus out of service for up to 1 year during the rebuild/rechassis and have a 10 - 15 minute wait for a out of town ladder company to respond !
    Last edited by WoodbridgeFFII; 09-01-2008 at 11:32 AM.

  12. #12
    MembersZone Subscriber
    Join Date
    Nov 2002
    Location
    Hanover, PA--The snack food capitol of the world!
    Posts
    51

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by WoodbridgeFFII View Post
    The Mack/Scope is a 75' model that was built in 1972 and had a total refurb done back in 1985, it was sold to us from Baker in 1986 as a remanufactured Aerialscope apparatus costing $ 225,000. Our department got there moneys worth out of this truck. Also the department did not want to have the only aerial apparatus out of service for up to 1 year during the rebuild/rechassis !
    I lived and served in Middlesex County for 6 years. I think that the worries about the "only" truck company being out of service are a bit misplaced. Keasbey is a small district and there are other aerial apparatus nearby (Perth Amboy, Edison, Woodbridge #1, even South Amboy). There is MUCH duplication of services in this and many other areas of New Jersey.

    That being said, there may have been significant issues with refurbing or remounting an aerial device that had already been remanufactured--either in cost, feasability or both. There may also be operational issues that we don't know about. Maybe they want a quint to run as a first out piece due to limited personnel. Maybe the 'scope isn't well suited to the hazards of the district. We don't know these answers.

    Phil

  13. #13
    Forum Member
    Join Date
    Dec 2007
    Location
    Woodbridge Twp , New Jersey
    Posts
    492

    Post Due To Limited Vol personnel !

    Quote Originally Posted by pgoldsmith View Post
    I lived and served in Middlesex County for 6 years. I think that the worries about the "only" truck company being out of service are a bit misplaced. Keasbey is a small district and there are other aerial apparatus nearby (Perth Amboy, Edison, Woodbridge #1, even South Amboy). There is MUCH duplication of services in this and many other areas of New Jersey.

    That being said, there may have been significant issues with refurbing or remounting an aerial device that had already been remanufactured--either in cost, feasability or both. There may also be operational issues that we don't know about. Maybe they want a quint to run as a first out piece due to limited personnel. Maybe the 'scope isn't well suited to the hazards of the district. We don't know these answers.

    Phil
    You hit the nail on the head, when there is a major fire here in Woodbridge twp most or all 9 fire districts respond to the scene for mutial aid. They want a " quint " due to limited personnel or man power during the daytime calls, they won't have to wait for a driver for a engine to drop a 5" LDH line and pump to the Aerialscope. And also the old Mack/Baker boom is going on 36 years of age !
    Last edited by WoodbridgeFFII; 09-01-2008 at 11:37 AM.

  14. #14
    Forum Member Rescue101's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2001
    Location
    Bridgton,Me USA
    Posts
    8,162

    Default

    Because of the way "scopes" are built they are good candidates for a rebuild or mulltiple rebuild/remounts. Essentially a small crane with a bucket on the end. They were/are built for extended service in extreme environments. The fact the FDNY can"t break them is a tribute to this(yeah,I know they've "injured" a few Towers over the years).Compared to a new ladder tower,well sit them side by each and see the differences.The Scope,being a true box design,is stronger. T.C.

  15. #15
    Forum Member
    Join Date
    Dec 2005
    Posts
    211

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Rescue101 View Post
    Because of the way "scopes" are built they are good candidates for a rebuild or mulltiple rebuild/remounts. Essentially a small crane with a bucket on the end. They were/are built for extended service in extreme environments. The fact the FDNY can"t break them is a tribute to this(yeah,I know they've "injured" a few Towers over the years).Compared to a new ladder tower,well sit them side by each and see the differences.The Scope,being a true box design,is stronger. T.C.
    Agreed. The scope is one of a kind. I would not even consider refurbing the old Mack chassis though. Still too many old / outdated / unavailable components. If a quint is desired, obviously you could re-furb the boom and re-mount on a new Arrow Xt, Spartan, or Seagrave chassis with a pump. The loss of the ladder truck for a year or so could be handled by a loaner / rental.

  16. #16
    Forum Member
    Join Date
    Dec 2007
    Location
    Woodbridge Twp , New Jersey
    Posts
    492

    Post

    Quote Originally Posted by FD1976 View Post
    Agreed. The scope is one of a kind. I would not even consider refurbing the old Mack chassis though. Still too many old / outdated / unavailable components. If a quint is desired, obviously you could re-furb the boom and re-mount on a new Arrow Xt, Spartan, or Seagrave chassis with a pump. The loss of the ladder truck for a year or so could be handled by a loaner / rental.
    I am not on the truck commitee but there will be a board of commissioners special meeting tonight,to go over plans to purchase a new tower ladder apparatus and talk about bonds to cover the cost.I do not know if a new Seagrave aerialscope is available with a pump & tank ?

  17. #17
    MembersZone Subscriber
    Join Date
    Jan 2006
    Posts
    81

    Default

    Anyone know how Hershey, PA likes the refurb of their Aerialscope? Also did they reuse the body and only replace the chassis or did they replace both?

  18. #18
    Forum Member islandfire03's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2006
    Posts
    2,572

    Default

    I would think that in these economic times a million dollar plus truck cost in a township with several other aerials nearby would be a very hard sell to the voters. Maybe you are in a better financial position than most of us and you townships voters will think this is the best way for them to proceed. It wouldn't fly in my area.

  19. #19
    Forum Member Rescue101's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2001
    Location
    Bridgton,Me USA
    Posts
    8,162

    Default

    It's my understanding that you now CAN get a 'scope with a pump and a tank(300 gal).At the time I checked,it would be in the million to mil two five range. T.C.

  20. #20
    Forum Member
    Join Date
    Dec 2007
    Location
    Woodbridge Twp , New Jersey
    Posts
    492

    Post Low Voter Turnout!

    Quote Originally Posted by islandfire03 View Post
    I would think that in these economic times a million dollar plus truck cost in a township with several other aerials nearby would be a very hard sell to the voters. Maybe you are in a better financial position than most of us and you townships voters will think this is the best way for them to proceed. It wouldn't fly in my area.
    The fire district elections that we have here every year in the month of Feb, for the yearly operating budget & to elect fire commissioners has very few voters that turn out to vote. Most people don't know of any fire district election or care untill there taxes go up then they complain. most of the voters will be firefighters, and a few seniors, etc ! The million dollar truck" bond issue "will be spread out over maybe 15 - 20 years, with a cost of about $ 55,000 per year added to the budget that is in affect now .
    Last edited by WoodbridgeFFII; 09-03-2008 at 07:31 PM.

Thread Information

Users Browsing this Thread

There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)

Similar Threads

  1. Aerial Ladder vs Tower Ladder
    By BScott in forum Fireground Tactics
    Replies: 10
    Last Post: 05-20-2007, 11:46 AM
  2. Tower Ladder
    By TFDNICK in forum Firefighters Forum
    Replies: 10
    Last Post: 10-28-2004, 02:54 PM
  3. Advantages and Disadvantes - Scope vs. Midmount Tower
    By FORTff in forum Firefighters Forum
    Replies: 1
    Last Post: 08-16-2004, 10:23 AM
  4. 95' Ladder Tower
    By STA2 in forum Apparatus Innovation
    Replies: 7
    Last Post: 08-20-1999, 10:46 PM
  5. New Tower Ladder
    By MFDFITZ213 in forum Apparatus Innovation
    Replies: 5
    Last Post: 01-26-1999, 10:39 PM

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts