1. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by Geinandputitout View Post
    Does this mean every guy that gets killed in a tanker rollover while not wearing his seat-belt gets denied LODD benefits?

    Not that it matters to this thread, but, a numbered notice has come down from my chief engineer (the big man), that any member injured in a MVA, and not wearing a seat belt WILL be denied any coverage by the city workman's comp. Said notice has been signed off by the city attorney, appealed by our union attorney, and stands as is. Turns out, it's kind of hard to fight against a written state law.

    In my city, I would say yes, that if you were killed in a roll over, (no tankers here) you would be denied your benefits.
    You want to be stupid and wear a cheater? By all means, feel free.

    Chicago, you make many great points, on this case though, you are way off base.
    I also felt this guy was asking how to make a cheater in order to use, call it the "spirit of the post" if you will. That terminology works in making the city abide by our CBA wording, it maybe should apply here.

    All that needs to be done is to make a quick trip to the local dive shop, a little mouthpiece fits great on an MSA regulator, just like the Scott regulator. (It's been done here) There is no need for drilling on a face piece, a little piece of rubber is all that is needed.
    However, I hate how my eyes hurt after taking a beating from smoke, and they take a beating.
    Also, remember to not breathe thru your nose and to keep a good seal with your mouth, otherwise you will pay a price.
    Yes, it is quick, convenient, and so on. To advocate it's use is something that I will never do. It's both stupid and dangerous, and anyone who says otherwise is lying.

    Try asking your workman's comp how they feel on the use of a cheater, then see how the benefit payout would be, were you to be killed wearing a cheater and your brothers were unable to cover for you in todays day and age.

    Call me a safety sally, but common sense has to play a part at some point, doesn't it?
    Last edited by jasper45; 09-11-2008 at 06:36 PM.

  2. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by jasper45 View Post
    Not that it matters to this thread, but, a numbered notice has come down from my chief engineer (the big man), that any member injured in a MVA, and not wearing a seat belt WILL be denied any coverage by the city workman's comp. Said notice has been signed off by the city attorney, appealed by our union attorney, and stands as is. Turns out, it's kind of hard to fight against a written state law.

    In my city, I would say yes, that if you were killed in a roll over, (no tankers here) you would be denied your benefits.
    You want to be stupid and wear a cheater? By all means, feel free.

    Chicago, you make many great points, on this case though, you are way off base.
    I also felt this guy was asking how to make a cheater in order to use, call it the "spirit of the post" if you will. That terminology works in making the city abide by our CBA wording, it maybe should apply here.

    All that needs to be done is to make a quick trip to the local dive shop, a little mouthpiece fits great on an MSA regulator, just like the Scott regulator. (It's been done here) There is no need for drilling on a face piece, a little piece of rubber is all that is needed.
    However, I hate how my eyes hurt after taking a beating from smoke, and they take a beating.
    Also, remember to not breathe thru your nose and to keep a good seal with your mouth, otherwise you will pay a price.
    Yes, it is quick, convenient, and so on. To advocate it's use is something that I will never do. It's both stupid and dangerous, and anyone who says otherwise is lying.

    Try asking your workman's comp how they feel on the use of a cheater, then see how the benefit payout would be, were you to be killed wearing a cheater and your brothers were unable to cover for you in todays day and age.

    Call me a safety sally, but common sense has to play a part at some point, doesn't it?
    Okay, YOU are a Safety Sally!!

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    Quote Originally Posted by laddercompany20 View Post
    ...It is for a Masters Degree course in Public Administration. Guess I'm not as dumb as a few of the last posts described...
    Depends on the school, I guess.
    Logic and proportion have fallen sloppy dead.

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    Quote Originally Posted by GeorgeWendtCFI View Post
    OK. How in the world would you get that from my post?

    Would not wearing a seat belt in a tanker rollover be an unauthorized modification of the unit? Would not wearing a seat belt void the tanker warranty?

    I realize that you are one of those who enjoy trying to fight on every one of my posts, but this is absurd.
    Relax jorge. I'm posing a question.

    As jasper45 pointed out, this is a real question in some places.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Geinandputitout View Post
    Relax jorge. I'm posing a question.

    As jasper45 pointed out, this is a real question in some places.
    It should be a real question in all places. It's not the same thing.
    PROUD, HONORED AND HUMBLED RECIPIENT OF THE PURPLE HYDRANT AWARD - 10/2007.

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    Quote Originally Posted by GeorgeWendtCFI View Post
    It should be a real question in all places. It's not the same thing.
    Fair enough, question in all places.

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    Jasper: Thank you for your concern, information and insight on benefit coverage. I also appreciate the fact that you recognize they are being used and you had the "courage" to answer my origional question- How do you make a cheater. I thank you, respect you as a professional firefighter and am thankful for your information. I am now goin gto step back and watch the drama unfold.

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    Quote Originally Posted by laddercompany20 View Post
    Jasper: Thank you for your concern, information and insight on benefit coverage. I also appreciate the fact that you recognize they are being used and you had the "courage" to answer my origional question- How do you make a cheater. I thank you, respect you as a professional firefighter and am thankful for your information. I am now goin gto step back and watch the drama unfold.
    Any drama here-you created.

    We ALL recognoze they are being used. That's why we are almost all universally opposed to their use.

    I hope we don't read about you as a statistic after you make one of these and try to use it to show what a tough guy you are.


    Jasper, I don't believe that anyone here thinks you are a safety sally. BTW, love the avatar.
    PROUD, HONORED AND HUMBLED RECIPIENT OF THE PURPLE HYDRANT AWARD - 10/2007.

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    Quote Originally Posted by laddercompany20 View Post
    Jasper: Thank you for your concern, information and insight on benefit coverage. I also appreciate the fact that you recognize they are being used and you had the "courage" to answer my origional question- How do you make a cheater. I thank you, respect you as a professional firefighter and am thankful for your information. I am now goin gto step back and watch the drama unfold.

    "Courage"???

    Are you even a firefighter?

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    Quote Originally Posted by jakesdad View Post
    "Courage"???

    Are you even a firefighter?
    Don't you friggin' pay attention?

    He's a fire fighter who is going for his Masters Degree. His MASTERS DEGREE!

    Why, he'll compare his IQ to ours any day.
    PROUD, HONORED AND HUMBLED RECIPIENT OF THE PURPLE HYDRANT AWARD - 10/2007.

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    Default Tight Group?

    Quote Originally Posted by laddercompany20 View Post
    Funny thing is, I know the answers to these questions as I have found in my prior RESEARCH...it is just such a taboo item in the fire service, that no one is able to produce pictures of one, or tell me how it is made- OR who is still using them. I am not slow. I have NO intention on making one of these devices or using it- this is a research project on Fire Service Product Liability Claims. My subtopic is SCBA mfg. lawsuits. It is for a Masters Degree course in Public Administration. Guess I'm not as dumb as a few of the last posts described. I am sorry I didnt explain all of that jibrish in the beginning- quite frankly, I didnt think I had to. All I wanted was little information. I guess Firehouse Forums are not a place to get unbiassed, unemotionally charged replys to legitimate questions. I'm spent. (Thanks, though to all the "Brothers" out there who were quick to judge and personally attcked me. Such a tight group of guys in the service, right? At least thats what your cool T-shirts say)
    Well, a fair agrument could be made that we are "such a tight group of guys" that we were hesitant to provide information that could be harmful to a brother, just another way of watching your back.

  12. #62
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    Quote Originally Posted by laddercompany20 View Post
    I guess Firehouse Forums are not a place to get unbiassed, unemotionally charged replys to legitimate questions.
    Well, that is surely a "duh" moment! If you want an encyclopedia answer, break open one. For someone who is studying for a master's degree, you sure need to research how to research. This is hardly an academic source!

    Also, I think your question was legitimate, but your approach was not. In addition, to deny those of us who are concerned with the use of such devices an opportunity to discourage their use (and as an academic you should feel that way too) is wrong.
    I am now a past chief and the views, opinions, and comments are mine and mine alone. I do not speak for any department or in any official capacity. Although, they would be smart to listen to me.

    "The last thing I want to do is hurt you. But it's still on the list."

    "When tempted to fight fire with fire, remember that the Fire Department usually uses water."

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    Quote Originally Posted by laddercompany20 View Post
    Funny thing is, I know the answers to these questions as I have found in my prior RESEARCH...it is just such a taboo item in the fire service, that no one is able to produce pictures of one, or tell me how it is made- OR who is still using them. I am not slow. I have NO intention on making one of these devices or using it- this is a research project on Fire Service Product Liability Claims. My subtopic is SCBA mfg. lawsuits. It is for a Masters Degree course in Public Administration. Guess I'm not as dumb as a few of the last posts described. I am sorry I didnt explain all of that jibrish in the beginning- quite frankly, I didnt think I had to. All I wanted was little information. I guess Firehouse Forums are not a place to get unbiassed, unemotionally charged replys to legitimate questions. I'm spent. (Thanks, though to all the "Brothers" out there who were quick to judge and personally attcked me. Such a tight group of guys in the service, right? At least thats what your cool T-shirts say)
    I have to go with BFD on this one. This wouldn't be the first time that someone came onto a forum asking about something and the resounding answer was "don't bother with it, it's an incredibly bad idea." Which is being a brother? Handing someone a schematic to get themselves killed or giving some advice to prevent injury or worse? Perhaps the message's delivery was a bit zealous. Wow, that never happens in the fire service. Also don't be offended if everyone doesn't believe you when you say why you're looking for this info. Believe it or not, some people have lied about who they are in the past making many people skeptical.

    I don't see where a map to build a cheater is pertinent to your topic so even if I knew how to make one of these I wouldn't show you how to make one either. You're talking about liability claims, a summation would suffice. If you are in a Master's program, congrats. It doesn't make you the smartest person in the room. There's a glaring difference between education and intelligence. There are brilliant people out there who don't have a master's degree, especially in the fire service. Heck, I don't have my Master's degree and I know gibberish isn't spelled with a j.

    My cool T-shirt talks about Guinness, my actions talk about Brotherhood.
    I may speak gibberish, but I don't talk s***! -- Dropkick Murphys

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    Quote Originally Posted by Fokker416 View Post
    I have to go with BFD on this one. This wouldn't be the first time that someone came onto a forum asking about something and the resounding answer was "don't bother with it, it's an incredibly bad idea." Which is being a brother? Handing someone a schematic to get themselves killed or giving some advice to prevent injury or worse? Perhaps the message's delivery was a bit zealous. Wow, that never happens in the fire service. Also don't be offended if everyone doesn't believe you when you say why you're looking for this info. Believe it or not, some people have lied about who they are in the past making many people skeptical.

    I don't see where a map to build a cheater is pertinent to your topic so even if I knew how to make one of these I wouldn't show you how to make one either. You're talking about liability claims, a summation would suffice. If you are in a Master's program, congrats. It doesn't make you the smartest person in the room. There's a glaring difference between education and intelligence. There are brilliant people out there who don't have a master's degree, especially in the fire service. Heck, I don't have my Master's degree and I know gibberish isn't spelled with a j.

    My cool T-shirt talks about Guinness, my actions talk about Brotherhood.

    That qualifies as an "internet beat-down"

    Fokker=1
    LadderCompany20 = 0

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    Quote Originally Posted by Fokker416 View Post
    I have to go with BFD on this one. This wouldn't be the first time that someone came onto a forum asking about something and the resounding answer was "don't bother with it, it's an incredibly bad idea." Which is being a brother? Handing someone a schematic to get themselves killed or giving some advice to prevent injury or worse? Perhaps the message's delivery was a bit zealous. Wow, that never happens in the fire service. Also don't be offended if everyone doesn't believe you when you say why you're looking for this info. Believe it or not, some people have lied about who they are in the past making many people skeptical.

    I don't see where a map to build a cheater is pertinent to your topic so even if I knew how to make one of these I wouldn't show you how to make one either. You're talking about liability claims, a summation would suffice. If you are in a Master's program, congrats. It doesn't make you the smartest person in the room. There's a glaring difference between education and intelligence. There are brilliant people out there who don't have a master's degree, especially in the fire service. Heck, I don't have my Master's degree and I know gibberish isn't spelled with a j.

    My cool T-shirt talks about Guinness, my actions talk about Brotherhood.

    Amen, ansd very true!
    ‎"The education of a firefighter and the continued education of a firefighter is what makes "real" firefighters. Continuous skill development is the core of progressive firefighting. We learn by doing and doing it again and again, both on the training ground and the fireground."
    Lt. Ray McCormack, FDNY

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    Default Back in the days SCOTT acutally built one for sale

    Fire fighter museum in NY actually has a cheater in their inventory; originally made by SCOTT.

    I found one online at http://www.ffeny.com made to the old spec and fits SCOTT mask perfectly.

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