Thread: nfpa code

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    Default nfpa code

    Is there an nfpa code that covers plugging or replaceing vehicle tires.
    Lt Hoffman
    Pensacola Fire Dept.
    local 707

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    Not that I've been able to locate. However US DOT regulations stipulate that a regrooved or recapped tire shall not be used on the front axle of any truck or truck tractor. It's also not a good idea to use a repaired tire on the front axle, especially on a fire truck. Personally I won't run anything other than a new, virgin casing tire at any position on my apparatus. The lives of my crew and the public aren't worth the savings between new and recapped tires.

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    Georgia EVT correctly cites 49 CFR 393.75, Tires, but no other guidance is given there. Neither is there anything in Part 396, Inspection, Repair and Maintenance.

    Somewhere in my collection of stuff I think I have an old edition of the CVSA (Commercial Vehicle Safety Alliance) North American Out of Service Criteria. Most roadside inspections of commercial vehicles in the U.S. and Canada are done to CVSA standards. There may be something in that document. It's available on line if you're a paying member, which I'm not. If someone is a member or has access to the criteria, please post it.

    The Technology and Maintenance Council of the American Trucking Associations Recommended Practices manual contains RP 206, Tire Repair Procedures. It's a 21 page document giving detailed recommendations for how or how not to repair any tire in common use on trucks today. One statement is "While there are many types of acceptable repair materials on the market today, the only acceptable method of tire repair calls for removal of the tire from the rim or wheel. Repairs made from the outside while the tire is still mounted are not recommended."

    The voting membership of TMC is comprised of maintenance people from the largest to the smallest of truck fleets. Manufacturers, suppliers and others are members and actively participate but do not have a vote. (Are you listening, NFPA???) RPs are developed from their hands on experience from millions of miles every year. RPs do not have the force of law but passing muster in a CVSA roadside inspection is part of all of them.

    Hope this helps some. Stay safe out there, everyone goes home!

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    Quote Originally Posted by lt phil hoffman View Post
    Is there an nfpa code that covers plugging or replaceing vehicle tires.
    We just went through this with ambulance tires and found that if the puncture was in the tread and the dealer installed a plug/patch the tire was covered under the warranty. The old plugs with no inside patch is not covered. We determined that if the dealer/manufacturer would warranty the plug/patch like an original tire, we'd consider that OK.

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    look at NFPA 1911 standard. chapter 7 it says tires shall be replaced at least every 7 years or more frequently when the tread wears exceeds state & federal standards. hope it helps stay safe. walt

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    Quote Originally Posted by westofd1 View Post
    look at NFPA 1911 standard. chapter 7 it says tires shall be replaced at least every 7 years or more frequently when the tread wears exceeds state & federal standards. hope it helps stay safe. walt
    Chap 7.3.4.

    Lets see, truck out of the station maybe 50hr/yr and 1/3 of that is night. So in 7yr exposed to maybe 300hr of sunlight and 2000mi of driving. Going to have to pass on that one.

    Yet one more NFPA unfunded mandate that 1/2 the FD in the US can't afford.

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    Quote Originally Posted by neiowa View Post
    Chap 7.3.4.

    Lets see, truck out of the station maybe 50hr/yr and 1/3 of that is night. So in 7yr exposed to maybe 300hr of sunlight and 2000mi of driving. Going to have to pass on that one.

    Yet one more NFPA unfunded mandate that 1/2 the FD in the US can't afford.
    Let one tire over 7 years old blow out on a call and cause an accident with serious injury or loss of life. When the innocent victim's lawyer gets through with you you will wish you had bought new tires every year. It's not only NFPA but the tire manufacturers themselves who are warning that tires over 7 years old are not safe. It has less to do with sunlight exposure and more to do with the effects of ozone on the rubber. I like my lifestyle just the way it is. A bad rubber brought me into this world, I'll be damned if another one is going to take me out! It's an unacceptable risk.

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    Quote Originally Posted by RFDACM02 View Post
    We just went through this with ambulance tires and found that if the puncture was in the tread and the dealer installed a plug/patch the tire was covered under the warranty. The old plugs with no inside patch is not covered. We determined that if the dealer/manufacturer would warranty the plug/patch like an original tire, we'd consider that OK.
    US DOT regulations prohibit the use of patched, plugged, or regrooved tires on emergency response vehicles, no exceptions.....

    When fire is cried and danger is neigh,
    "God and the firemen" is the people's cry;
    But when 'tis out and all things righted,
    God is forgotten and the firemen slighted.
    ~Author unknown, from The Fireman's Journal, 18 Oct 1879

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    Quote Originally Posted by cubbie View Post
    US DOT regulations prohibit the use of patched, plugged, or regrooved tires on emergency response vehicles, no exceptions.....
    Please cite the section of the regulations where you found this.
    49 CFR ???.???.

    In other words, as the former ICC (before DOT) inspector who taught me the regs would say to me, "Where does it say that at?"

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    Thanks everyone I found what I needed in NFPA code 1911. The truck we were at odds with is now currently off both front line and reserve duty, it meet all of the points covered 1911 (tread depth, front and rear and side wall cuts).

    Again
    Thank You for your help.

    Lt Phil Hoffman
    Eng 4, Sta 4
    B-watch
    Lt Hoffman
    Pensacola Fire Dept.
    local 707

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    Quote Originally Posted by cubbie View Post
    US DOT regulations prohibit the use of patched, plugged, or regrooved tires on emergency response vehicles, no exceptions.....
    If you wouldn't mind I would still like to know where to find this in the regs. Just for future reference. It helps to have regs to show the AHJ when you have to justify some purchases or repairs.

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    Your life, and those in the truck, as well as the publics safety, is paramount.

    If I see a nail, or I get called that there is a nail/screw, whatever in a tire, it gets replaced with a new one. PERIOD.

    Our SOP is, if it can leak air after removal, it will be replaced. Better safe than sorry.

    While tire repair technology is better, we won't take the chance. And retread/capped tires are a no-no. PERIOD.

    And to be honest, I haven't seen a fire truck tire, or a Med unit tire, last for more than a year or two maybe 3, at best.

    FM1
    Last edited by FIREMECH1; 09-18-2008 at 04:34 AM.

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    I found what I needed in NFPA 1911 ch.6.3.1(3)(4). Also according to the Florida ***. of Emergence Vehicle Technicians which is found on the Florida Fire Chiefs' ***. web page (ffca.org) through a link under the sections tab, emergence vehicle tires can not be plugged; they must be patched and tube. I hope this helps you
    Lt Hoffman
    Pensacola Fire Dept.
    local 707

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    I need some help on this one guys. And it has to be written in stone, per say.

    Our policy was to replace a tire that had a puncture, of any kind with a new one. Whether it be a drive or steer tire.

    It has been brought to my attention, that, the policy has changed. We are now allowed to use internally patched tires. On either steer or drive tires.

    I searched for the definition of this: NFPA 1911 ch.6.3.1(3)(4). And without paying for it, I can't find or get the true story or rules.

    The hidden story behind it is budget cuts and savings. So I need the real truth on what is allowed, or not allowed, for tire repairs.

    FM1

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    FIREMECH1:

    There isn't anymore info in the full version of 1911 on the section you cited, but I found this in the next section:

    6.3.2 A qualified technician shall conduct an out-of-service evaluation of the following tire deficiencies and make a written report, including recommendations to the AHJ:
    (1) Punctures
    (2) Cuts to the cord
    (3) Bulges, other than bumps or repairs; repair bulges greater than in. (10 mm), or bulges or knots associated with tread
    (4) Sidewall separation

    It doesn't say what you should do, or what your recommendations should be, so I'd say they basically threw it squarely on the "qualified technician".

    As I noted before, on our ambulances, the tire dealership now repairs them with an internal plug-patch system and states they remain fully warrantied for their original rating. We've not looked at this for larger apparatus.

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    Thanks for the info, I appreciate it.

    It seems that after talking to the Fire Dept's equipment manager, he would rather leave it to our best judgment. Another words, he doesn't want to deal with it, or be held responsible.

    After talking to the tire reps, they said they will also guarantee the tires rating, and will honor any warranty that it may have. As well, they will use either a 4x4 or 6x6 plug/patch combo for all puncture repairs.

    When asked about being liable, in case of a failure, I was told that "We will see what happens, if we happen to cross that road".

    Hopefully a repaired tire will wear out, before we find out.

    FM1

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    A quick Google search revealed this article, I don't know how applicable it is to Phil's situation...

    Steer axle re-tread issues.

    HTH...
    Career Fire Captain
    Volunteer Chief Officer


    Never taking for granted that I'm privileged enough to have the greatest job in the world!

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    Default Tire repairs

    Our policy is no patched tires on the front axle and no side wall repairs any where.

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    im not a big fan of spending money when it comes to the FD however when it comes to tires why risk having that tire flat or blow out on you after you put a patch or plug in it... and as far a retreads go i would never put them on any six wheel truck , let alone an emergency vehicle

    also putting tire on every 7 years that would mean replacing a tire with only 500 miles on it
    ~Big O~

    Tankers have wheels and carry water, Tenders are breaded and served with BBQ sauce

    (if you don't believe me Google it)

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    Quote Originally Posted by MoosemanKBB527 View Post
    im not a big fan of spending money when it comes to the FD
    So what are you a big fan of spending money on? There's a difference between "just enough to get by" and adequate funding to maintain a safe operation.
    Quote Originally Posted by MoosemanKBB527 View Post
    when it comes to tires why risk having that tire flat or blow out on you after you put a patch or plug in it...
    This had always been our assertion until the tire dealer told us the new patch/plug system was allowed and accepted by the tire manufacturers to the point that they'd warranty the repaired tire. I'm not sure why they'd do this if they had a chance to sell a new tire, but they fully assume responsibility so one must trust they trust the repair with their name and money at stake.
    Quote Originally Posted by MoosemanKBB527 View Post
    putting tire on every 7 years that would mean replacing a tire with only 500 miles on it
    Do you not understand that mileage is only one factor affecting tire life? UV damage, constant weight from sitting, failure to get them tires moving to warm them and "round them out" on a frequent basis all play a roll. We replace more tires due to dry rot cracking than tread wear on 75% of our apparatus.

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    Quote Originally Posted by MoosemanKBB527 View Post
    im not a big fan of spending money when it comes to the FD however when it comes to tires why risk having that tire flat or blow out on you after you put a patch or plug in it... and as far a retreads go i would never put them on any six wheel truck , let alone an emergency vehicle

    also putting tire on every 7 years that would mean replacing a tire with only 500 miles on it
    Only 500 miles? Doesn't anyone take the vehicles out for training? Doesn't anyone run them for exercise or practice? How do you keep up your driving and pumping skills? How does anyone maintain proficiency with ladder operations? Doesn't anyone there realize that machinery that doesn't get worked regularly won't work when it's needed?

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    Quote Originally Posted by MoosemanKBB527 View Post
    im not a big fan of spending money when it comes to the FD however when it comes to tires why risk having that tire flat or blow out on you after you put a patch or plug in it... and as far a retreads go i would never put them on any six wheel truck , let alone an emergency vehicle

    also putting tire on every 7 years that would mean replacing a tire with only 500 miles on it
    I'm not 100% sure, but after reading your post, I think I know what they mean by a "Kool-Aide" poster.

    I have not found a rig that doesn't need tires at least once every two years on the front, and less than that on the drive tires. E-One HP100 aerials needs all 8 replaced regularly every 6-9 months on the rear. Fronts, about every year or so.

    If your replacing tires with 7 years on it, with only 500 miles on them, then you need to stop doing the parade thingy.

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