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  1. #1

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    Default Task force tips VS smooth bore

    I am currently a student at Ivy Tech Community college in Indianapolis. I am writing an evaluation paper for my English111 class and would like opinions on your preference of nozzle. include characteristics, specifications, and any other information i may find useful.

    thanks guys


  2. #2
    MembersZone Subscriber ffmedcbk1's Avatar
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    If you do a search that can be very helpful. I assure you that there is a wealth of information in the discussions. I am biased in this arena, but I want to hear of you research, so please expound prior to me giving my opinion.
    thank you.

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    South Bend FD uses elkhart brass sm30 on our main attack lines, sm20 on our trash lines, and we keep some of our commercial lines pre-connected with smooth bores. Our high rise packs are elkhart brass firechiefs. The only task force tips that we have are blitz fire portable ground monitors on E1 and E2.
    Last edited by krazykarl; 09-24-2008 at 05:14 PM.

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    Default Advantage of TFT's vs smooth bore nozzles

    1. Being an "Old School" firefighter, and an advocate of the indirect attack; a fog nozzle is an essential part of the way I fight fire. That said, I know and choose to ignore the criticism and hostility that will be generated as a result of my statement. It is my experience that the application of a fog pattern in an enclosed or semi-enclosed area will extinguish more fire than a straight stream application. I am well aware of the danger posed by high temperature steam and the fact that I am the coolest (temperature wise) thing in the fire / steam area, resulting in the steam condensing on me and my gear. You must be completely covered to avoid being the lobster in the pot. Exposed skin at 98 deg. F. will instantly attract condensing steam depositing 970 BTU per pound of water vapor onto your flesh. It is not a problem if you are prepared for the conditions. An even better choice would be water with a surfactant (wet water, detergent, penetro-wet, etc.) so that the droplets that do contact the fuel cling to the surface and help with the suppression of flammable gasses being evolved by the fuel.

    2. The TFT allows the firefighter to control the application rate so when he is faced with issues of footing, dragging hose or tenuous positions, he is able to control the reaction force to his advantage. Additionally, when facing high fire volume, he is able to apply water flows approaching the capability of a 2 1/2" line without the weight factor of 2 1/2" hose.

    3. This ability to flow volumes approaching 200 GPM on Preconnected 1 3/4" hand lines is only achieved by engine pressures above 180 PSI. Most pump operators will be able to explain that for pressures above 150 PSI, engines must be derated and at 200 PSI can only deliver 70% of rated capacity. My urban, suburban, rural coverage area of 102 sq. mi. requires and our SOP demands a 2 section engine company. This means that the attack engine provides the preconnected lines and is supplied by a second pumper at a water source (hydrant, tanker, drop tank or static source). Relay operations provide an incoming pressure of about 30 psi at the attack engine. This allows full volume of the attack engine since the net pump pressure is exactly 150 psi. Thus a 1750 gpm. pump can supply the full rated volume at 180 psi.

    4. Engine set-up for preconnect lines 4 or 5 - 1 3/4", 2 - 2 1/2" & a P.C. master stream device. Total delivery capacity can be 1750 and could approach 2000 gpm. depending upon manpower and nozzle selection.

    5. Yes, the major disadvantage is a relatively high reaction force for flows above 150 gpm. A single firefighter can handle a 150 gpm line, but above that a second or 3rd FF is needed. A 2 1/2" TFT can supply up to 500 gpm, but is limited by friction loss at 180 psi. engine pressure to about 400 gpm. This arrangement causes about 200 lbs of reaction force and the fully open 2 1/2" nozzle needs to be strapped down or mechanically held in place when flowing this volume of water.

    6. Why so many preconnected lines? You must design your hose and nozzles to apply the full capacity of the engine. To do less negates the expense of buying that 1,500 or 2,000 GPM engine and simply wastes scarce monitory resources of your community.

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    KuhShise,

    Im having trouble understanding your statements and logic, give a brother some help.

    Since the rating of a pump is done at draft under specific conditions, operating off hydrants or from the supply provided by another rig (incoming pressure) the rating isnt exactly relevant anymore. That said, the number of preconnects, types of nozzles and such and the capacity of the pump are pretty irrelevant in my opinion.

    My rig has a 1250 single stage. We have attack lines and a wagon pipe capable of flowing a combined 2525 GPM, a very unlikely scenario. In an unscientific test weve gotten 2040 GPM from it from a hydrant, never actually trying to max it out yet. With 2 suction lines in the drink, we did 1600.

    A 2008 FDNY Seagrave has only 3 attack lines, none are preconnected. The pump rating allows them to get the most efficiency at draft, if necessary, for water supply operations. A daily expectation of that 2000 GPM pump would be anywhere from 180-250 GPM, for the typical handlines that are used.

    If a FD does mostly drafting, they need the biggest pump money can buy, because if a needed fire flow is 1500 GPM (One ladder pipe and one wagon pipe, or two 2 1/2's and a ladder pipe, for example), the 2000 GPM pumper will send that water farther than the 1500 GPM pump can simply based on the pumps discharge pressure and FL in the hose. This is another reason LDH is so much more crucial in rural America and not as critical in areas with water supplies.

    My quick figuring says the 1500 Pump can only get the water about 800 feet in 5" if you want to get it there with 20 Residual. Theres probably some fancy math you can do to figure out how much further the 2000 pumpp could move 1500 GPM

    What I regularly read and hear is the theory that small or rural departments dont need big pumps because there isnt any water supply that can handle that volume and cities need big pumps because they have hydrants. Its actually the opposite, wouldnt you agree? Any static body of water is dying to give 2000+ GPM to a fire, as long as you show up with the pump and suction hose ready to take it.

    Am I way off track here?

    Anyway, I like Akron Assault Breakaparts. Best of both worlds. If mated properly, you can have a pair of tips that dont require a pump pressure change when switching from smooth bore to fog. On our 2" 400' line the 200@100 fog tip gives us about 170 GPM and simply removing that tip and exposing the 1 1/8" smoothbore provides 240 GPM, no pump panel changes.
    Last edited by MG3610; 09-24-2008 at 09:52 PM.

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    Default Some answers for MG3610

    Education is the beginning of understanding. Being wise enough to ask relevant questions is the mark of a truly educated man.

    A pump at draft needs to develop about 110% of rated capacity because of the following:

    1. The volume is specified so it must be met, but the lift (vacuum) adds about 14 psi more work since the eye of the impeller is about 1/2 psi. above a perfect vacuum. Thus the net pump pressure is 150 psi. + the 14 psi below atmospheric or a net total of 164 psi. So your 1500 GPM engine is developing 1500 times 164 or 264,000 gallon psi's of work. At the 70% point it is delivering 200 psi + 13 psi of vacuum (lower because less water is flowing up the suction sleeve so less friction loss and less inertia needed to move less water from rest to flowing velocity.) The pump is producing 223,650 gallon psi's of work. Efficiency is slightly less because the impeller velocity is greater causing additional friction inside the pump. At 250 psi the rated capacity is 1/2 or (you can do the math for a vacuum of 10 psi and a discharge of 250 psi) 195,000 gallon psi's

    2. A 1500 GPM pump can deliver full volume from a single 6" suction sleeve (20 ft. long) with an approved strainer at a 10 ft. lift from source surface to the eye of the impeller. In fact you can get about 1650 GPM from a single 6" suction sleeve before you begin to cavitate the pump. A 1750 or larger pump will require two separate suction sleeves to achieve full volume at draft. In fact larger pumps can sometimes reach full capacity if supplied by one 6" hard sleeve and one or two 3" hard suction sleeves into the source. Examining the energy needed to get water into a pump from draft, the following things must be overcome by atmospheric pressure. A. Lift x 0.435 psi. per ft. of lift.
    B. Friction loss in the suction sleeve, pump casting & strainer.
    C. Inertia of the water. It takes energy to simply accelerate the water from rest to make it move up the suction sleeve and out the discharge.
    I say that atmospheric pressure must overcome these losses, because it is impossible to pull water along a pathway. It must be pushed and the pushing force comes from the air pressure sitting on top of the water source.

    3. Attempting to bring more water into the pump (increase the throttle) will cause the pressure in the eye of the impeller to lower closer to a perfect vacuum. Water will produce water vapor at too low a pressure (read boil) and expand forming bubbles in the water stream. The harder you try to pump the more bubbles are produced inside the impeller eye, so you are effectively being limited in volume by the available atmospheric pressure. There is a second and more devastating problem with cavitation. Boiling water still requires 970 BTU per pound to boil, so this terrific amount of energy is being consumed in the eye and released when the bubbles are carried toward the discharge side of the impeller. (read increased pressure) Since the vapor is still cold (70 degree pond water ?) when it reverts to liquid it gives back the energy, but the adjacent impeller is the target for the release. At the same instant a sonic impulse is sent into the metal causing a molecule or two of brass to be dislodged from the impeller. (read pump class "marbles rolling around in the pump")
    4. Back to NFPA pump ratings. Gasoline engines are notorious for poor horsepower at low engine RPM's so some method (transfer case ratio) is needed to get the power plant operating at its max power point when the pump is producing its rated volume at 150 (164) psi. This is an effective lift of 330 feet (2.2 ft. / psi) and a weight of 1500 X 8.33 lbs per gallon or 4,123,350 ft. lbs. per minute or 124.95 water horse power. Pump efficiencies (pump, transmission, transfer case) can be as low as 50% so the required BHP might easily be 250 HP. A single stage pump needs to turn about twice as fast to reach the 250 psi point, but we were already around 2,000 rpm to reach max HP point. At 4,000 rpm we are at or above the redline for our large gas engine. Thus the reason for 2 stage pumps when coupled with gas engines. Your diesel power plant probably develops max torque around 1,000 rpm or less so we can eliminate the two stage pump because the governed no load rating of your engine is about 2100 rpm and this easily develops the 250 psi needed at 50% volume.

    5. A good estimating technique for friction loss is to square the flow in 100's of GPM's and then multiply by a "K" value for the hose diameter. Example of 3" hose W/ 2 1/2" couplings at 500 gpm. Drop the 2 zeros and square the 5 = 25. The "K" for this hose is 1 so 100 ft of this hose will have a friction loss of 25 psi. at 500 GPM. The "K" for 5" LDH is about 1/15 so your example of 1500 gpm is 15 x 15 = 225 times 1/15 or 15 psi per 100 ft. At 150 psi discharge you should be able to move full volume 1,000 feet. While a flow of 2,000 gpm can only be pushed about 550 ft. with 150 psi. (26.6 psi per 100 ft.) Do not become trapped into some discussions about various manufacturers hoses in these forums. The formulas are based upon the Hazen - Williams equations where the pipe diameter affects the friction loss by the 4.87 power. Any change in the weave that allows the hose diameter to increase under pressure will cause very large changes in the friction loss of the hose. Another problem with LDH is that most manufacturers have a max operating pressure of 200 psi. This becomes the limiting factor on long lays at moderate flows. On the fireground I use a finger calculator. Hold your left hand palm up facing you. Allow each finger a value of 1 (thumb) through 5 (pinkie), squared these would be 1, 4, 9, 16, & 25. Based upon the above calculation for 2,000 gpm (26.6 psi / 100) we can estimate that pinkie will be 2,000 gpm or thumb will be 2,000 / 5 or 400 gpm. Middle finger for 5" hose is 1200 gpm with a loss of 9 psi per hundred feet. A 700 ft lay needs 63 PSI + 20 for incoming to attack engine. A little more than idle for a good engine/pump combination.

    6. I totally agree with your assessment concerning rural need for large pumps and LDH. 2,400' lays (split lay 1200 ft per engine) only need 144 psi at 950 gpm. or a 1,000 GPM pump. Extend that requirement to 1100 gpm and you quickly need a 1500 gpm pump to supply it at 200 psi. Tankers need to be filled at rates of at least 1000 gpm or faster. If the design of vents can handle it, I prefer to fill in less than 60 seconds. A 2,000 gal tanker should be filled in a minute or less and dump in the same amount of time. Don't use LDH to fill tanker shuttles because of the hose weight. 100' of 3" can move 1,000 gpm with a loss of about 100 psi, so a pair of 3" fill lines should be able to meet the requirement.

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    Sorry we're off the track a little here but this discussion is pretty informative all the way around.

    Kushise: I find it concerning that a dept. would actually need the full rated capacity of their pump through handlines as your #3 implies. While it's perfectly possibly with proper speccing, it's probably not a good idea. This is the "all your eggs in one basket" issue. If the lead attack pumper is laid out with multiple hand lines and the pump craps out or you lose a piece of LDH you're out of business at best. This is obviously a big deal when interior ops are being conducted from this engine as compared to a defensive situation. We "over spec" our pump intakes/discharges to ensure we can capitalize on some of our better water mains, by using the engine as a manifold and exceeding the pumps rated capacity.

    For the original OP: Not a fan of any automatic nozzle in general. But if I dislike any more than another I'd say TFT's are the worst in my view. Sort of in conflict with which "Old School" Kushise went to, my training taught me that any nozzle has two settings: Open and Closed. Using the bale to set the flow is in my view a dangerous practice that often leads to either underflowing the line or sudden full flow that causes the nozzleman to lose control of said line. Time and again, newbies are "caught" flowing just a little in the unrealistic training burns where this can be done. Why? Becasue it's easier. And sadly most of us take the easy road when given a choice. In acquired structures or real fires we find the choice to underflow the line doesn't exist safely. Of coures any nozzle with a bale can be used to control the rate of flow, but TFT markets theirs as variable flow with click adjustable settings.

    On the other hand smoothbores provide the ultimate in reliability and simplicity all the way around.

  8. #8
    Forum Member Bones42's Avatar
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    Anyway, I like Akron Assault Breakaparts. Best of both worlds. If mated properly, you can have a pair of tips that dont require a pump pressure change when switching from smooth bore to fog. On our 2" 400' line the 200@100 fog tip gives us about 170 GPM and simply removing that tip and exposing the 1 1/8" smoothbore provides 240 GPM, no pump panel changes.
    We use Akron Assault Breakaparts as well. 75psi/175gpm. 200' of 1 3/4" hose on each of our preconnects. Flow with the adjustable tip on is 170, with the tip removed is ~180 (if I remember the #'s correctly). Pump discharge pressure is 120.

    Yes, the calculations and formulas all say it won't work. We ran this over and over with a flow meter and that's what we get. Personally, anyone that goes and gives me formulas for nozzle flow, I tell them to figure it out and then actually flow meter it.
    "This thread is being closed as it is off-topic and not related to the fire industry." - Isn't that what the Off Duty forum was for?

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    Fireground tactics usually suggest that if you commit a line to interior attack, you must provide a line of equal or larger size for back-up. Let us begin with a single attack crew and a back-up line say 2 - 1 3/4 lines. (one in and one out) the second engine supplies two additional crews so now we have progressed to - two lines in and two back-ups. Commiting any one of the back-up 1 3/4 lines requires the deployment of a 2 1/2 back-up line. With the proper crews, the max interior operation will be 4 or 5 - 1 3/4 lines with two 2 1/2 back-ups. application rate to the fire is now 720 gpm with a reserve need of 500 for back-up lines or a total requirement of 1220 GPM. With this progression in mind we must now switch to exterior attack mode since we are not permitted to have crews inside if we open up with a master stream device. With a 2" tip on a deluge and both 2 1/2" lines operating, the application rate has grown to about 1580 GPM. Anchoring the two 2 1/2" with automatic nozzles we can easily reach 1880 GPM.
    As for having all your eggs in one basket...Pump operators are trained to keep the tank full, so there will be a few minutes of water to allow the interior crew to back out should there be a failure of the LDH. Large supply hose rarely fails completely, but continues to supply a portion of the original flow for some period of time until shut down is possible. In the event of a pump failure on the attack engine... Lets assume that we have made a 600 ft. lay to the water supply. Assuming the worst case scenario of 5 lines in the building or a flow of 150 gpm per line under the emergency condition. The supply engine merely raises the discharge pressure to 180 psi. and pumps through the attack engine effectively maintaining suffient water to allow attack crews to back out. At 150 gpm on the preconnected 1 3/4" lines, we need about 150 psi. This allows 30 psi to move the 600 gpm through the ldh and the attack engine as a manifold. The 5" supply has about 18 lbs friction loss allowing an additional 12 psi for friction loss inside the disabled attack engine.
    I understand your reluctance to gate the bale of a nozzle back, but this is exactly what the TFT has been designed to do. With experience, we have discovered that the firefighter facing the seat of the fire is a much better judge of needed flows than the pump operator setting up for a standard flow rate. Try advancing a 2 1/2 up a set of stairs with the reaction force at 125 lbs. The TFT can be safely reduced in gpm until the nozzle and back-up are in a position to handle the reaction from a full flow nozzle setting.
    As for forcing a nozzleman to either be full on or full off says that you have not suffiently trained or have not developed enough confidence in the nozzle man to allow him or her the opportunity to make the decision.
    Incidently, studies done in the 1950s & 60's indicated that successful fire departments rarely were able to generate more than 500 gpm per engine assigned to major working fires. (NFPA Fire Attack I - Kimball) Using this info and logic, one could come to the conclusion that a pump larger than 500 was an un-necessary waste of resources. The real cause of the seemingly low application rate was the lack of adequate manpower, 2 1/2" hose and the use of 3rd and 4th alarm equipment as taxi service for firefighters.
    My "Old School" includes about 10 years on a heavy rescue with a 5 stage high pressure centrifugal pump (800 psi) and 300 gal water tank. We thought that "High Pressure" was the best thing going. A standard Elkhart booster nozzle set at 30 gpm put out many well involved structures. At first blush, we thought the 30 gpm was putting out the fire, until someone did the math and found we were really applying about 75 gpm with that nozzle setting.

  10. #10
    Forum Member ENG103's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jstapert09 View Post
    I am currently a student at Ivy Tech Community college in Indianapolis. I am writing an evaluation paper for my English111 class and would like opinions on your preference of nozzle. include characteristics, specifications, and any other information i may find useful.

    thanks guys
    Jstapert09, I'm not sure if you are actually just refering to fog vs. solid stream or just want info on TFT nozzles in particular. There are some good research articles online regarding what type of stream is better from each side. As far as TFT nozzles are concerned, I hate them. My dept has all TFT automatics and they are a pain. They use a sliding valve instead of a ball valve and require a lot of mantenance for them to operate smoothly. Automatics, I believe are dangerous. I won't go into that since there are threads just about that issue. I would prefer an Elkhart smooth bore or a Low Pressure Fixed Gallonage fog.

  11. #11
    Forum Member BKDRAFT's Avatar
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    Lightbulb

    Quote Originally Posted by jstapert09 View Post
    I am currently a student at Ivy Tech Community college in Indianapolis. I am writing an evaluation paper for my English111 class and would like opinions on your preference of nozzle. include characteristics, specifications, and any other information i may find useful.

    thanks guys
    I prefer smooth bore nozzles. Lower psi with more gpm.

    For example. Youcan get a 70-200 gpm TFT breakaway nozzle for a 1 3/4" line. These come with fog tips that can be removed. You now have a smooth bore nozzle. You can change the slugs inside to have a different size orfice (ex: 7/8, 15/16). You can operate these on a low pressure setting where you can pump so you have 50 psi at the nozzle. That way wheather your using a fog or smooth bore the engineer doesn't need to change pressure at the panel.

    Very effective.
    Last edited by BKDRAFT; 09-28-2008 at 04:49 PM.

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    Default correction on my post

    my paper is on smooth bore vs fog tip...not necessarily TFT

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    Find copy of David Fornell's book "Fire Stream Management" and read the chapters on nozzle selection, then watch Andy Frederick's Fire Engineering Video "Bread & Butter Operations: Methods of Structure Fire Attack". If you do this, then go out and run some of the tests yourself, you will find that the money that you save not buying nozzles with swivels, springs, o-rings, pistons, spinning teeth, bells, whistles, and brass marching bands will pay for two or three nozzles that might actually contribute to fireground safety, and the unique concept of actually putting the fire out!

    I had a highly regarded instructor that once taught me "Remember, Son, that the 2 1/2" fog nozzle was invented by a nozzle salesman!"
    "If everyone is thinking alike, then somebody isn't thinking."

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  14. #14
    55 Years & Still Rolling hwoods's Avatar
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    Lightbulb Wow.............

    You Guys are Waaaaaayyyyyyyyyyyyy too complicated. Pull a line that looks big enough, attach a nozzle that will flow whatever volume that you want. When the line is in place and flowing, gently wind the throttle out until the you see a bit of Daylight under the Nozzleman's feet, then close the throttle about one quarter turn.


    May I help the next in line, Please?..............
    Last edited by hwoods; 10-01-2008 at 11:24 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by hwoods View Post
    You Guys are Waaaaaayyyyyyyyyyyyy too complicated. Pull a line that looks big enough, attach a nozzle that will flow whatever volume that you want. When the line is in place and flowing, gently wind the throttle out until the you see a bit of Daylight under the Nozzleman's feet, then close the throttle about one quarter turn.


    May I help the next in line, Please?..............
    I think instead of turning the throttle down, one should add a rookie as dead weight, then give the throttle three good turns then maybe one for the wife and kids.

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    I think people make it way to complicated and personal. The fire is going to go out if you put enough water on it, whether it comes out of a fog or smooth nozzle. As long as you are aware of the potential problems associated with both types of nozzles, you will be fine.
    Even the burger-flippers at McDonald's probably have some McWackers.

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    Quote Originally Posted by DFDCar1 View Post
    Find copy of David Fornell's book "Fire Stream Management" and read the chapters on nozzle selection, then watch Andy Frederick's Fire Engineering Video "Bread & Butter Operations: Methods of Structure Fire Attack". If you do this, then go out and run some of the tests yourself, you will find that the money that you save not buying nozzles with swivels, springs, o-rings, pistons, spinning teeth, bells, whistles, and brass marching bands will pay for two or three nozzles that might actually contribute to fireground safety, and the unique concept of actually putting the fire out!

    Could not have been better put. There's a reason the busiest FD in the country uses smoothbore they work best..DUH !

  18. #18
    55 Years & Still Rolling hwoods's Avatar
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    Talking Huh??...............

    Quote Originally Posted by FFPCogs08 View Post
    Could not have been better put. There's a reason the busiest FD in the country uses smoothbore they work best..DUH !

    Kentland uses smoothbores??........
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    We use TFT exclusively and have had great success with it.

    I honestly don't think it matters if you use fog or smooth bore, as long as you train with what you use.

    Know the limitations and hydraulics of what you use.
    I am now a past chief and the views, opinions, and comments are mine and mine alone. I do not speak for any department or in any official capacity. Although, they would be smart to listen to me.

    "The last thing I want to do is hurt you. But it's still on the list."

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    All nozzles in the hands of SKILLED Firefighters will put out fire. In fact everyday somewhere in the world it is happening, probably right now while I am typing this.

    My concern with combination nozzles is the additional complexity, especially if you are talking automatics. All nozzles work fine as long as they are maintained per the manufacturers guidelines. I have been an instructor for 28 years and the one thing I can emphatically say is that nozzles are NOT being maintained. More times than I can count I have been in departments where the automatic nozzle has not worked because it was not maintained. Is it the nozzle's fault? No, it is not. But less complexity destroys that concern.

    1) Know what your equipment is capable of.
    2) Know how to maiximaize it's ability through training.
    3) Proper and periodic maintenance, per the manufacturer, is critical to ensure proper functioning.

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