run reports

[Wentz34]

hello, i am on a volunteer dept and i was wondering if there is any way i could get the run reports(the response times in particular) for our department, i have talked to our chief and our reports are often inaccurate in times listed on the reports (its not always done and times are sometimes assumed) i had also talked to the sherriff and after 3 days of getting the run around they said they only had the time the call came in on file, and what i had wanted(times dispached and time of arrival) would be very hard to get and too time consuming for them, saying their CAD system is out of date and not within reason. I wanted to compile a report for our dept. and was wondering if there was any other way to get this info. Thanks again.

[cubbie]

You need to understand that your report is a legal document. What you put in it and what you don’t can hurt you. You can be held liable for wrong information. Malice on your part by guessing could increase your liability.
It would be my guess that your department has never been part of a lawsuit yet. When it comes it could be what is called a blanket lawsuit. Everyone at the scene, the chief, the training officer, and your government leaders are suited.
I am a private fire investigator that works for the insurance industry. I get a copy of a fire report for every scene I investigate. It’s on the check list from the insurance company.
We want to know the basics. When was 911 called? Who called 911? What did the fire department see when they got there? Such as; where did you see fire first? How big was the flame plume? What did they do? Such as; defense mode, offensive mode. What affect did your actions have on the fire? How long did take to get fire under control? What problems did they have? Such as; the front door was nailed shut causing a delay in being able to make entry.
Follow your training and document everything. Some old timers use to tell me to write as little as possible in my reports. The less you write the less there is to use against you later.
That may have been true 20 or 30 years ago. It’s not anymore. You now have NFPA that set minimum standards for just about everything. It does not matter if your state has or has not adopted them. The NFPA standards are consensus standards. That allows them to be admissible in court has the minimum standards you should have complied with. You need to document your compliance with these standards. No one is expecting a perfect report. No fire response ever goes by the book and no one is expecting it to. If you didn’t do something you should have. You should document why you didn’t comply with the standard. You are not going to be taken to court useless there is gross negligence on your part. Good fire reports are the best way to protect you from a lawsuit.
I’m always amazed that 50 firefighters with 10 Engines from different stations can always get to a fire scene at exactly the same time. If called to testify against you in court. I will start with this to discredit your report and you to the jury. When I show the jury you lied in your report. They are not going to believe anything you tell them when you do testify. I’m going to take the narrative portion of you report that’s only two or three lines long. I will show the jury the basic NFPA standards you didn’t comply with based on your own omissions in your report. In the legal system, if you didn’t document it. It didn’t happen.
I am a NPQ certified fire officer, hazmat technician and fire instructor 2.
I know your job well. If I find that you have committed gross negligence. I will recommend to my client that they file a lawsuit against you. If I find that you did your job to the best of your abilities and the 10 million dollar building still burned to the ground. So be it. You did the best you can with what you got. I will tell my client to pay the claim and move on.
I hope this help some.

[jbrescue]

The sheriff just does not want to do the work necessary to get you the times. They have them, they are lying. There system is as current as they come. All they have to do is query fire or ems calls and print them out.

[Wentz34]

You need to understand that your report is a legal document. What you put in it and what you don’t can hurt you. You can be held liable for wrong information. Malice on your part by guessing could increase your liability.
It would be my guess that your department has never been part of a lawsuit yet. When it comes it could be what is called a blanket lawsuit. Everyone at the scene, the chief, the training officer, and your government leaders are suited.
I am a private fire investigator that works for the insurance industry. I get a copy of a fire report for every scene I investigate. It’s on the check list from the insurance company.
We want to know the basics. When was 911 called? Who called 911? What did the fire department see when they got there? Such as; where did you see fire first? How big was the flame plume? What did they do? Such as; defense mode, offensive mode. What affect did your actions have on the fire? How long did take to get fire under control? What problems did they have? Such as; the front door was nailed shut causing a delay in being able to make entry.
Follow your training and document everything. Some old timers use to tell me to write as little as possible in my reports. The less you write the less there is to use against you later.
That may have been true 20 or 30 years ago. It’s not anymore. You now have NFPA that set minimum standards for just about everything. It does not matter if your state has or has not adopted them. The NFPA standards are consensus standards. That allows them to be admissible in court has the minimum standards you should have complied with. You need to document your compliance with these standards. No one is expecting a perfect report. No fire response ever goes by the book and no one is expecting it to. If you didn’t do something you should have. You should document why you didn’t comply with the standard. You are not going to be taken to court useless there is gross negligence on your part. Good fire reports are the best way to protect you from a lawsuit.
I’m always amazed that 50 firefighters with 10 Engines from different stations can always get to a fire scene at exactly the same time. If called to testify against you in court. I will start with this to discredit your report and you to the jury. When I show the jury you lied in your report. They are not going to believe anything you tell them when you do testify. I’m going to take the narrative portion of you report that’s only two or three lines long. I will show the jury the basic NFPA standards you didn’t comply with based on your own omissions in your report. In the legal system, if you didn’t document it. It didn’t happen.
I am a NPQ certified fire officer, hazmat technician and fire instructor 2.
I know your job well. If I find that you have committed gross negligence. I will recommend to my client that they file a lawsuit against you. If I find that you did your job to the best of your abilities and the 10 million dollar building still burned to the ground. So be it. You did the best you can with what you got. I will tell my client to pay the claim and move on.
I hope this help some.

yes, thanks for this info.. it will be something that i bring up and try to get fixed.. i appreciate the response.

[Wentz34]

The sheriff just does not want to do the work necessary to get you the times. They have them, they are lying. There system is as current as they come. All they have to do is query fire or ems calls and print them out.

yea.. thats what i was thinking.. she also then told me they were to understaffed for this...
Thanks for the response

[Wentz34]

anyone else have any suggestions? or any suggestions to improve response times and/or the amount of firefighters responding... ANY ideas would be great even if not really applicable.. just looking for ideas. Thanks

[cubbie]

I have been reading about staff cutting and station closings all around the country. How could we allow this to happen? What is the driving force behind the cuts? Its money.

I am convinced that things are not going to change until the insurance industry steps up to the plate. They need to start protecting their own interest. We need insurance companies to start filing lawsuits against career and combination fire departments for malpractice based on non-compliance with NFPA standards for staffing.

Things will not change until it becomes more cost effective for local governments to comply with NFPA minimum staffing requirements than it is to ignore them. It will only take one or two multi-million lawsuits. The national organizations for city and county governments would spread the news quickly
that non-compliance could be very costly. Things would change and staffing problems would be a thing of the past.

We need the heavy hitters with deep pockets to start taking local governments in court.

anyone else have any suggestions? or any suggestions to improve response times and/or the amount of firefighters responding... ANY ideas would be great even if not really applicable.. just looking for ideas. Thanks

[djgilbert32]

Our times are faxed to us after each run, it has time of dispatch, in route, arrival time, and in service time.

[theflash083]

we get all our times and such from fire dispatch.

[KB1OEV]

Like the last few people, after a call dispatch is called and gives us a rundown of all of our times.

[Wentz34]

Thanks for all the respsones.. these seem like very good ways to be getting ACCURATE report times..

but bump this question..

anyone else have any suggestions? or any suggestions to improve response times and/or the amount of firefighters responding... ANY ideas would be great even if not really applicable.. just looking for ideas. Thanks