Important point of no return dates (EPA, NFPA, Detroit, etc.)

[GFPD2005]

I was hoping those out there with the knowledge could help clear up the point of no return dates relevant to apparatus ordering.

I saw that 1901-2009 according to the NFPA took effect in July of 2008. So does that mean that all orders from that point on must be 1901-2009 compliant or do you still have until the end of 2008 to order a 1901-2003 compliant truck?

EPA 2010 emissions....what is the deadline for that?

Last day to order a Detroit Diesel? Already too late?

Last day to order a Cat?

Any other important dates?

What about the average % cost increase due to 1901-2009, and EPA?

Many thanks!

[olfire5]

The good news is, you still have time! The NFPA standards compliance drop dead date looks to be units built after 12/31/08. As far as the engine availability, that will depend on the "stock pile" ability of the manufacturer you choose. Storage space, ability to pay, relationship with engine builders etc. Hope that helps.

[1OLDTIMER]

Why don't you let the dealer take all these decisions? If they sell it [new]...I can't imagine the dealer not being compliant.

[firepiper1]

Although the NFPA 1901 - 2009 update was approved on July 18, 2008, the new edition will cover fire apparatus whose purchase contracts are signed after December 31st of this year. Order before the new year and you can still have a rig built under the current standard.

[neiowa]

You can order an IH chassis to meet the new standards now. The roll stabillity I think would be worth specing at $2k. Significant safety improvement.

My understanding is there will not be grandfathering allowed for engines going into custom chassis. If build starts after Jan 1 2009 must meet NFPA 1901-2009. That Detroit and CAT will be done playing on that date. Cummins tbd depending on if they update their engines to meet the new NFPA (work that apparently has not started).

So get your order completed within the next 60days.

[GeorgiaEVT]

If I'm not mistaken, the EPA regulations take effect 1/1/2010. Any medium / heavy duty diesel powered on road vehicle manufactured after that date has to be compliant.

[firepundit]

If I'm not mistaken, the EPA regulations take effect 1/1/2010. Any medium / heavy duty diesel powered on road vehicle manufactured after that date has to be compliant.

There might be a way around that. I heard that Pierce stockpiled pre-2007 engines so they could save some bucks in the Contender line. Apparently, some of them sat for some time before being installed.

I do not know the details or if it is legit, just what I heard.

[Firefighter1244]

There might be a way around that. I heard that Pierce stockpiled pre-2007 engines so they could save some bucks in the Contender line. Apparently, some of them sat for some time before being installed.

I do not know the details or if it is legit, just what I heard.

That is very legit! We just took delivery of an Enforcer chassis with a 2006 motor in it in March of this year. By being able to obtain the '06 motor, we saved $$ vs. the '07 emissions equipment and we were able to get an enforcer chassis vs. the new chassis which also saved us $$$. I would assume they would do the same thing again for the '10 changes.
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[sven73]

neiowa- are you sure about the commercial chassis. I am being told none of them will be 2009 compliant on 1/1/09.

[GeorgiaEVT]

That is very legit! We just took delivery of an Enforcer chassis with a 2006 motor in it in March of this year. By being able to obtain the '06 motor, we saved $$ vs. the '07 emissions equipment and we were able to get an enforcer chassis vs. the new chassis which also saved us $$$. I would assume they would do the same thing again for the '10 changes.
.

I can't wait to rub this info in the right faces. We took delivery of several 2007 units from another manufacturer about a year ago and have had nightmares with the new emission systems. I told them at the time that they needed to go with Pierce. But Noooooo, we had to but these from someone's golf partner. We have some mid 90's Sabers that have been outstanding units. No major issues with any of them. Had the pump overhauled on one this year is all. I love being able to say I told you so.

[neiowa]

Got it direct from the IH factory rep to fire mfg. Their new Maxxforce 11 & 13 with NFPA cert. had just completed testing and expected to ship late Oct. Can get the M11 in the 7400 (as I recall).

Can, perhaps in theory, stockpile 2009 EPA engines for use after Jan1, 2010. But NFPA cert engines is a no go. Must meet NFPA 2009 if used after Jan 1, 2010. Or so IH tells me (though an on going subject of discussion).

What engine is the custom cab mfg going to stockpile? Detroit and CAT apparently going away after Dec 31, 2007?

[Engine305]

If you look hard enough, you could probably locate a manufacturer that still has 2006 Motors. Pierce has one on the Stock Truck list, Enforcer Pumper that will be completed in late 2008 with a pre emissions engine.
I'm sure that they have some more. HME had quite an inventory of Big Block Cummins Engines the last I spoke to the Sales Rep.

[RFDACM02]

Good, screw NFPA and buy the stockpiled pre-2010 motor. Like many other NFPA 19101 issues, this may be an item the builder will allow you to sign off on buying as non-compliant. As many have noted before, most builders will keep you to NFPA compliance until you push back, then they will allow a waiver if they feel the item is not likely to get them into a legal problem. It's hard to believe a non-emmissions compliant motor will be the cause of a suit as opposed to failure to put covers on hosebeds or aerial interlocks, etc.

[FlorianKnight]

Good, screw NFPA and buy the stockpiled pre-2010 motor. Like many other NFPA 19101 issues, this may be an item the builder will allow you to sign off on buying as non-compliant. As many have noted before, most builders will keep you to NFPA compliance until you push back, then they will allow a waiver if they feel the item is not likely to get them into a legal problem. It's hard to believe a non-emmissions compliant motor will be the cause of a suit as opposed to failure to put covers on hosebeds or aerial interlocks, etc.

I believe you have two seperate items confused here. NFPA has nothing to do with the 2010 emissions compliant engine. The change in the engine is being forced on the Fire Service by the EPA who refuses to waive Emergency Service Vehicles from the new standards.

As to the OP's question: I was told that CAT is already starting to phase out some of their products by currently asking for final orders from OEMs for the smaller engines (C7 & C9). My guess is that the big boys will stock up on them but if you have your heart set on one of these I would suggest you contact your local dealer/rep sooner rather than later. I would expect to see the C13 and the Detroit final order deadline sometime in first half of next year.

[CooterRob]

Like many have stated... many manufacturers will, if they haven't already, buy up many of the the 2007 emissions engines. The 2010 won't hit us for a while!

We have a 2006 CAT C-9... we got a drastic costs savings!!! (we couldn't afford a big block, but was offered this to help save us some money... I was bummed)

Seagrave wouldn't let us "SIGN OFF" a waiver for non compliance on our generator issue. We had a Honda generator spec'd with an aluminum diamond plate cover and Honda kicked it back as voiding the warranty. We went with a cooler running Winco diesel.(we couldn't afford a PTO) We also were "highly" suggested by Seagrave to have a chevron put on the rear b/c our rig is being delivered in Nov.

My 10 cents :-D