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  1. #21
    Forum Member DeputyChiefGonzo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 1OLDTIMER View Post
    I believe that many are in denail on this tragic MESS, and they think that the govt. [or someone] will "fix-it." BREAKING NEWS...the govt. has already FIXED IT, that's the problem. This is not a correction in the market...it is near total failure of the whole system. I fear that some paid depts. may have to revert to [at least partial] volunteers to provide protection to the citizens...and make due with what equipment they have now...then well see what the loyalist are made of.
    Why should the FD go back to volunteer if they are career? It has nothing to do with "loyalty"... one won't see the cops and the teachers "volunteer", and neither will Public Works.
    ‎"The education of a firefighter and the continued education of a firefighter is what makes "real" firefighters. Continuous skill development is the core of progressive firefighting. We learn by doing and doing it again and again, both on the training ground and the fireground."
    Lt. Ray McCormack, FDNY


  2. #22
    Forum Member 1OLDTIMER's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CaptainGonzo View Post
    Why should the FD go back to volunteer if they are career? It has nothing to do with "loyalty"... one won't see the cops and the teachers "volunteer", and neither will Public Works.
    Will the "career" people be willing to take a considerable CUT IN WAGES...when the tax collections dwindle? I think you missed my point Capt., the coffers are running dry...rapidly. It's all about MONEY...the lack of it!
    "we will bankrupt ourselves in the vain attempt at absolute security"
    Pres. / General Dwight D. Eisenhower

  3. #23
    Forum Member Bones42's Avatar
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    Will the "career" people be willing to take a considerable CUT IN WAGES...when the tax collections dwindle?
    I sure know the cops and teachers won't. Why should the FD?
    "This thread is being closed as it is off-topic and not related to the fire industry." - Isn't that what the Off Duty forum was for?

  4. #24
    Forum Member 1OLDTIMER's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bones42 View Post
    I sure know the cops and teachers won't. Why should the FD?
    They won't either...my exact point of saying...
    I fear that some paid depts. may have to revert to [at least partial] volunteers to provide protection to the citizens...and make due with what equipment they have now...
    If there is NO WAGE money for cops, the Sheriff or Nat. Guard can take over, and people can teach their kids at home without teachers. But without career/paid firemen...the cities will NEED protection, and I can think of no other solution other than volunteers to man the equipment. What would be your solution?
    "we will bankrupt ourselves in the vain attempt at absolute security"
    Pres. / General Dwight D. Eisenhower

  5. #25
    Forum Member Bones42's Avatar
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    Much like LA did during the riots. Fight the fires where a known rescue is. Let the lost buildings go. Use your resources wisely. A CO alarm will get answered eventually, but it won't be a priority. Smells and bells won't be a priority. FD's will stop sending engines to EMS calls.

    Is any of that a good situation? Nope, not at all. But it's a much better chance than hoping that people will give up any of their free time to volunteer to answer calls in cities.


    However, looking at it from a bean counter point of view....
    I can get 3 guys, pay them 1/3 of a normal salary, give them no benefits, no job security, and be the same amount of money. Scary thing is...there are people that desparate for work, after all, some money is better than no money.

    Thats a real scary proposition.
    "This thread is being closed as it is off-topic and not related to the fire industry." - Isn't that what the Off Duty forum was for?

  6. #26
    MembersZone Subscriber JohnVBFD's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 1OLDTIMER View Post
    They won't either...my exact point of saying...


    If there is NO WAGE money for cops, the Sheriff or Nat. Guard can take over, and people can teach their kids at home without teachers. But without career/paid firemen...the cities will NEED protection, and I can think of no other solution other than volunteers to man the equipment. What would be your solution?

    I don't know but I know I am scared to go outside without my tinfoil hat right now after reading this

    The National Guard is NOT a police force. They have no powers of arrest. Therefore you would STILL need cops with arrest authority.

    Now if you excuse me, I need to go by some plywood and stuff and board up my house
    Co 11
    Virginia Beach FD

    Amateurs practice until they get it right; professionals practice until they cannot get it wrong. Which one are you?

    'The fire went out and nobody got hurt' is a poor excuse for a fireground critique.

  7. #27
    Forum Member DeputyChiefGonzo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 1OLDTIMER View Post
    Will the "career" people be willing to take a considerable CUT IN WAGES...when the tax collections dwindle? I think you missed my point Capt., the coffers are running dry...rapidly. It's all about MONEY...the lack of it!
    Will the politicians, businesses and every other enterprise roll back their prices for goods and services to meet the cuts in wages?

    No.. they will probably increase them.
    ‎"The education of a firefighter and the continued education of a firefighter is what makes "real" firefighters. Continuous skill development is the core of progressive firefighting. We learn by doing and doing it again and again, both on the training ground and the fireground."
    Lt. Ray McCormack, FDNY

  8. #28
    Forum Member 1OLDTIMER's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CaptainGonzo View Post
    Will the politicians, businesses and every other enterprise roll back their prices for goods and services to meet the cuts in wages?

    No.. they will probably increase them.
    No...the politicians are rapidly running out of real money...due to the inability to recover taxes from the foreclosed houses...that the failed banks now own, and business [taxes] closing on a daily basis. No [WalMart] "rollbacks" to offer on goods and services.

    According to the IMF’s most recent World Economic Outlook, published on October 8th, the world economy is “entering a major downturn” in the face of “the most dangerous shock” to rich-country financial markets since the 1930s. Shares of General Motors (GM) lost nearly one-third of their value Thursday [October 9, 2008], plunging to their lowest level since July 1950.
    If you are not paranoid...you surely are not paying attention.

    Quote Originally Posted by DocVBFDE14;
    The National Guard is NOT a police force. They have no powers of arrest. Therefore you would STILL need cops with arrest authority.
    Not without MONEY to pay the [cops] wages...and why is "the Guard called out at every major incident...to keep and control order?
    Last edited by 1OLDTIMER; 10-09-2008 at 09:30 PM.
    "we will bankrupt ourselves in the vain attempt at absolute security"
    Pres. / General Dwight D. Eisenhower

  9. #29
    Forum Member DeputyChiefGonzo's Avatar
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    The failed banks don't own all of the houses, as you imply....

    Are times tough... sure... in my 27+ years on "da job", I have weathered a few myself.

    We just added twonew firefighters in the last year, and there are three position that will be filled in the near future.

    There has been a commercial building boom in my community, with a lot of office building refits and such, and there is even some new home construction and remodeling going on.
    ‎"The education of a firefighter and the continued education of a firefighter is what makes "real" firefighters. Continuous skill development is the core of progressive firefighting. We learn by doing and doing it again and again, both on the training ground and the fireground."
    Lt. Ray McCormack, FDNY

  10. #30
    Forum Member 1OLDTIMER's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CaptainGonzo View Post
    The failed banks don't own all of the houses, as you imply....
    Cap. I DID NOT say "the failed banks own ALL of the houses. Here is what I said;

    the inability to recover taxes from the FORECLOSED houses...that the FAILED banks now own.
    If the taxes owed on these FORECOSED houses cannot be collected...[which in most communities pay the wages of public servant employees], then where will the TAX [WAGE] MONEY come from? Ie., as of today, a major city in the SW...is cutting 800 [soon to be 1100] public school employees...due to lack of funds for wages.

    As I said previously, we can survive without schools [we do 3 months every year], but NOT emergency, first responders. No money...no work! Compounding the problem, when they permitted public servants to reside outside the of the boundries that pays their wages...those employees have little or no ECONOMIC loyality to their employeers.

    I am happy for you that your community has not been affected by the worst finincial crisis since 1930, and that [lack of] MONEY is of no concern. The best to you in the future.
    "we will bankrupt ourselves in the vain attempt at absolute security"
    Pres. / General Dwight D. Eisenhower

  11. #31
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    Communities adding volunteers is probably an unrealistic idea, regardless of the issues already mentioned. With a poor economy, who (besides those already doing it) is going to jump at the opportunity to volunteer? Not tons of people I'm sure. The volunteer fire service is already hemorrhaging members as it is. Politicians are already quite satisfied with poor staffing levels and, as usual, will have the fire service first on the chopping block for cuts, ahead of law enforcement and other services, just as they always have. Meanwhile, our workload will most likely increase, as will the unfunded mandates. Could be scary...

  12. #32
    Forum Member 1OLDTIMER's Avatar
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    Question

    No comment.
    Last edited by 1OLDTIMER; 10-13-2008 at 03:32 PM.
    "we will bankrupt ourselves in the vain attempt at absolute security"
    Pres. / General Dwight D. Eisenhower

  13. #33
    Forum Member JayDudley's Avatar
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    1OLDTIMER...Thanks. Our budget is tied to the property and new construction taxes. It seems they NEVER go down. We were able to give our Firefighters a pay raise for the next four years and also buy new equipment . I know times are hard for each fire department and those who need to need to try and get by the best way they can. Good luck to all who are trying to make ends meet. I consider ourselves lucky.

    Respectfully,
    Jay Dudley, Fire Commissioner
    District # 2
    Respectfully,
    Jay Dudley
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  14. #34
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    Some quick calculations on costs increasing for the various reasons. NFPA 1901-2009 at estimated 15K, 3.5% increase for annual increase, EPA 2010 increase estimated at 15K and then another 3.5% for another annual increase.

    At these increases you can see why you would want to buy now instead of waiting... but in many rural areas you are probably not going to sell it to the taxpayers...



    Cost 3Q08 | NFPA 2009| 09 COLA| 2010 EPA| 2010 COLA| Difference | % Increase

    200,000.00 | 215,000.00| 222,525.00| 237,525.00| 245,838.38| 45,838.37| 22.92

    225,000.00| 240,000.00| 248,400.00| 263,400.00| 272,619.00 |47,619.00| 21.16

    250,000.00| 265,000.00| 274,275.00| 289,275.00| 299,399.63| 49,399.63| 19.76

    275,000.00| 290,000.00| 300,150.00| 315,150.00| 326,180.25| 51,180.25| 18.61

    300,000.00| 315,000.00| 326,025.00| 341,025.00| 352,960.88| 52,960.88| 17.65

    325,000.00| 340,000.00| 351,900.00| 366,900.00| 379,741.50| 54,741.50| 16.84

    350,000.00| 365,000.00| 377,775.00| 392,775.00| 406,522.13| 56,522.12| 16.15

    375,000.00| 390,000.00| 403,650.00| 418,650.00| 433,302.75| 58,302.75| 15.55

    400,000.00| 415,000.00| 429,525.00| 444,525.00| 460,083.38| 60,083.37| 15.02

    425,000.00| 440,000.00| 455,400.00| 470,400.00| 486,864.00| 61,864.00| 14.56

    450,000.00 |465,000.00| 481,275.00| 496,275.00| 513,644.63| 63,644.62| 14.14

    475,000.00| 490,000.00| 507,150.00| 522,150.00| 540,425.25| 65,425.25 |13.77

    500,000.00 |515,000.00| 533,025.00| 548,025.00| 567,205.88 |67,205.88| 13.44

  15. #35
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    My department is close to signing a contract on its' most expensive piece of equipment purchased to date, a tandem axle 75' quint with CAFS. We have been planning this for many years and were hoping to have another 2 to 3 years before we pulled the trigger. Like others, we are trying to beat the expected increases due to NFPA and the diesel emissions, but nothing else is coming down in price either.
    On the financial end, the leasing companies appear to be bending over backwards to bring this deal home with their discounts and willingness to work with us.
    Oh, and I know this will start a war, the low price is a Pierce, followed not too far behind by Smeal. Getting down to the final meetings before signing the papers.

  16. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by PrestoC1 View Post
    My department is close to signing a contract on its' most expensive piece of equipment purchased to date, a tandem axle 75' quint with CAFS. We have been planning this for many years and were hoping to have another 2 to 3 years before we pulled the trigger. Like others, we are trying to beat the expected increases due to NFPA and the diesel emissions, but nothing else is coming down in price either.
    On the financial end, the leasing companies appear to be bending over backwards to bring this deal home with their discounts and willingness to work with us.
    Oh, and I know this will start a war, the low price is a Pierce, followed not too far behind by Smeal. Getting down to the final meetings before signing the papers.
    PrestoCi I'm curious to know what sort of lease rate %'s you've been quoted for the value and what sort of terms as I see that Leasing might become more popular for "some" FD's and City's with capital purchases with the economic woes but who still need and want new apparatus for the safety and protection of their FF's and Citizens.

  17. #37
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    The 2 companies I am dealing with are both between 4.25% and 4.5% with plans/terms from 5 to 10 years. Comes down to financing around $275K for a 7 year annual payment of $48K.
    By putting some of our money down up front, the one cut over $30,000 off of the price of the truck. The other is giving us a discount for paying off the chassis on delivery, but their caveat is the first payment is not due until 6 months after delivery.
    We financed our 2004 attack engine completely through lease/purchase and at that time you could defer your first payment for one year after delivery. With the credit crunch going on, they do not appear to that lenient anymore.

  18. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by ChiefDog View Post
    Some quick calculations on costs increasing for the various reasons. NFPA 1901-2009 at estimated 15K, 3.5% increase for annual increase, EPA 2010 increase estimated at 15K and then another 3.5% for another annual increase.
    Chief you're omitting 2-4% material price increases two to three times/yr. This may or may not continue (impossible to project how much/when) but has been the case in 07/08 and no reason not to figure will continue.

    If you're saving to buy a truck you're never going to catch up. Best bet is to order before Jan1, 2009.

  19. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by neiowa View Post
    Chief you're omitting 2-4% material price increases two to three times/yr. This may or may not continue (impossible to project how much/when) but has been the case in 07/08 and no reason not to figure will continue.

    If you're saving to buy a truck you're never going to catch up. Best bet is to order before Jan1, 2009.
    Yes, you are correct. I did not put that in the calculation. I put just 3.5% as a middle of the road "guess". It use to be the manufacturers would put one increase or two per year. Now the way things are the prices change so quickly they may need to adjust quicker. Especially with build times being out months from the contract signing. At any rate these calculations are probably low and are still scary to look at.:

  20. #40
    Forum Member bum291's Avatar
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    This has gone off-topic.

    Either case, Finland hasn't been hit as hard (yet). One of the two voulentair departements I am a part of is building a rescue-tanker and replacing the crew van for a new one. One of our neigbouring VFD's also just ordered a brand new tanker.

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