CAFS Rescue Pumper Specs

[GFPD2005]

Hello all. We have switched gears from a new ladder to a new engine. We are looking to sign the contract in 2009. I would be very appreciative of any that would like to send me their specs on recently ordered or delivered CAFS equipped rescue pumpers. Drawings and a picture would always be great too! Im mostly interested in the pump and CAFS configuration and if alot are specing CAFS to auto engage when u engage the pump. We will be specing a 1500gpm single stage Hale pump. And please Capt. Lou I would love your input despite the Hale pump.

ekambari@myway.com

Basics I am looking at:

Hale 1500gpm single stage pump
FoamPro 2002 (do people recommend auto on for this?)
30A tank 50-70B tank (for ethanol threat)
900 water
CAFS capable: (1) 1.75 bumper line, (2) 1.75 speedlays, (1) 2.5 off the rear hose bed.
Heard alot about auto tank fill...we hook up to hydrants so sounds like a good thing to spec. I saw one that is a 2.5 inlet....are there 5" storz inlets?

[PrestoC1]

You definitely want to go with some type of tank fill for the foam system!! We learned that on our 2004 CAFS engine.
Most of the manufacturers now put an automatic tank fill right off of the pump inlet. It requires a 6" valve in the inlet that is located on the pump side of the tank fill valve. It is closed to supply water to the tank fill and isolate the pump, but if conditions change and you need big water, you simply open the valve and supply the pump directly. This is not to be confused with the normal tank fill or recirc valve.
I believe Hale has information on their website about their system. We have this set up on the new quint we are in the process of purchasing.

[VanIsleEVT]

Any reason for choosing the Hale pump over a Waterous? The Eclipse system is pretty nice!

[GFPD2005]

Hale over Waterous...

Familiarity. Except for our one of a kind Godiva pump under cab on our ladder, we have had Hale pumps. The guys that work on them have gone to the Hale pump school. I guess its kinda like SCBA's, we have Scott and wouldnt even consider anything else... which is narrow minded, but hey this is the fire service!

Id really like to see what the new Gimaex One Seven CAFS system has to offer. But thats not gonna happen. They use a point6 yes .6% class B concentrate with it. Over $100/gal.

Thanks to ChiefEngineer and everyone else for sending me information!

[ChiefDog]

Hale over Waterous...

Familiarity. Except for our one of a kind Godiva pump under cab on our ladder, we have had Hale pumps. The guys that work on them have gone to the Hale pump school. I guess its kinda like SCBA's, we have Scott and wouldnt even consider anything else... which is narrow minded, but hey this is the fire service!

Id really like to see what the new Gimaex One Seven CAFS system has to offer. But thats not gonna happen. They use a point6 yes .6% class B concentrate with it. Over $100/gal.

Thanks to ChiefEngineer and everyone else for sending me information!

If all things are considered, see what the annual service is on the two. We have one Waterous, works fine, but the transfer case takes ATF and more of it compared to the Hales using SAE80/90. With budgets tight you may want to look at the annual costs too.

[CaptLou]

Hi GFPD2005,

First off glad you are looking at CAFS. I would not cut it out of the picture. That being said. Regardless if you get a Waterous pump or a Hale pump, the CAF portion of the System is what you need to look closely at. In my department we have 2 CAFSystems. Our first was purchased in 1998. It consists of a Hale 1250 gpm single stage pump, FoamPro 2002 and a Pneumax, PTO CAFSystem. Pneumax was purchased by Waterous in 2000. But the CAFSystem can still be installed on most any fire pump. In 2008 we purchased a Waterous Eclipse. We are happy with both units.

I would recommend that you get the "auto-on" feature for the foam proportioner. You must specify it in your bid if using the FoamPro. It is called the "Advanced Feature Control Head". FoamPro charges more for this feature. If you were to get the Advantus Foam Proportioner from Waterous it comes standard. Either way, male sure you get it.

I would get a single foam tank system. Stay away from dual tank systems. You will save $$$$ and aggravation. What I would recommend is a simple, manual diverter valve at the intake to the foam proportioner. Have an auxiliary pick up tube connection plumbed to it. If you ever need to pump "B" foam or any other type of foam you would simply turn the valve, connect the pickup tube, prime the foam pump and go to work. This is a simple, cost effective way of being able to use different types of concentrates. Keep in mind that no matter what or how you plumb your foam system, you will be limited by the size of the foam proportioner. The 2002 is a 5gpm pump and Advantus is a 6gpm pump. Look at each proportioners' flow capabilities with a 1%, 3% and 6% concentrate to better understand this. And the solution is NOT to install a larger gpm foam pump. If you do install a monster 10 or 12 gpm foam pump you will spend alot of money and it will not work well with the lower gpm flow rates associated with some CAFS operation.

Your water tanks size, 900 gallons and foam tank size, 30 gallons for "A" foam are fine.

I would get a "re-fill" system for the foam tank so no one has climb up on the truck with 5 gallon pales. This is a safety issue that is well worth the money.

I would definitely get an "AUTO-TANK FILL" system for any CAFSystem purchased. A nice way to do this is spec a Monarch intake valve (Waterous) or a MIV (Hale) intake valve. Have the truck builder (put in specs) "T" into the relief valve connection and then connect the Auto-Fill to this. It works very nice. You can plumb it to more than one of the intake valves and have the truck builder "manifold" them into one. So no matter what LDH connection is used the Auto-Fill will work. Both Waterous and Hale make and offer an Auto-Fill valve.

I would recommend that you plumb all your pre-connected lines to CAFS. Just know you may not be able to flow them all simultaneously.

Hope this helps. You can email or call me if you have any questions. I would be happy to try and answer them for you.

Be Safe,


Captain Lou
"GotFoam?"

[VanIsleEVT]

If all things are considered, see what the annual service is on the two. We have one Waterous, works fine, but the transfer case takes ATF and more of it compared to the Hales using SAE80/90. With budgets tight you may want to look at the annual costs too.

You're joking right? You're operating budget is that tight that you'll base your pump purchase on what oil it takes. What it's cost, about $15.00 more to change the fluid in a Waterous. What's the operators hearing worth because he'll be deaf in no time operating a Hale for any length of time. Man, do those things ever whine!

[Rescue101]

Excuse me? I run all Hales(minus 2 D's,soon to be 1)and my hearings just fine.Got no issue with Waterous,you can't go wrong with either one. The only thing that "whines"on my Hales is the operator when he'd rather be inside playing. T.C.

[npfd801]

I'm fighting narrow mindedness on my own department just to put an el cheapo class A system on a new engine, nevermind CAFS.

We might catch up to you CAFS guys in 2025, though we really don't *NEED* it to the same degree as you folks having to truck water in, etc.

Sorry, taking the thread on a tangent here - we're also all Hale (except for an Austrian oddball) and the next will also be Hale. I'm familar with FoamPro, but it seems you pay for the name when looking on the low end systems and Hale's low end system seems to offer more bang for the buck.

Anyone have any insight?

[GFPD2005]

Nice to talk to you today NPFD.

To go along with your tangent I would also like to hear about the Hale Foam Logix. vs. the FoamPro. Hale touts it as state of the art when compared to the "competitor" read FoamPro.

[Engine305]

I can send you stuff from our recent purchase of a Pierce Custom Contender with Cafs.
Capt Lou if you read this please send me a pm with your number so I can speak with yoy regarding our apparatus and training.
Dumpster fire the other night 133 gallons of water and 1 gallon of concentrate.
yippee............

[ChiefDog]

You're joking right? You're operating budget is that tight that you'll base your pump purchase on what oil it takes. What it's cost, about $15.00 more to change the fluid in a Waterous. What's the operators hearing worth because he'll be deaf in no time operating a Hale for any length of time. Man, do those things ever whine!

The Waterous C10 Chain drive takes 12 quarts of ATF per the Waterous manual http://www.waterousco.com/serviceman...on/sec2208.pdf and the Hale MGA takes 3.8l of 90W.(8 pints) http://www.haleproducts.com/_Downloa...%20Rev%20A.pdf

Waterous says to replace the fluid 2 times a year or after 100hours of use.

As I said and you quoted, if you are taking all things into consideration, service of your apparatus is part of the cost of ownership. You also need to look at standardization with other trucks you have, purchase costs, and the list goes on and on.

"If" ATF and 90W are about the same per quart. (don't know, haven't bought any lately) the difference is 3 to 1. At $5 per quart that is $40 per service and $80 per year if you follow Waterous's Planned Maintenance instructions for fluid alone.

I am more fortunate than some people around my area that my 23,500 maintenance line item is more than some very small departments have to run their entire operation on.

[CaptLou]

Hi GFPD2005,

Having played with the Advantus by Waterous, FoamPro and Hale Foamlogix proportioners, I can say they all operate basically the same from the control panel. However, the Advantus uses "conductivity" to accurately inject the correct amount of concentrate needed to give the user what they want. Where the FoamPro and the FoamLogix use "volume matrix" to measure the amount of concentrate needed.

In my opinion the Waterous Advantus is the one I like best. The FoamPro would be second and the Hale 3rd.

All three use a different type foam pump as well. Look at them all and ask each manufacturer questions. There is a difference.

Hope this Helps.

Be Safe,

Captain Lou
"Got Foam?"

[npfd801]

Nice to talk to you today NPFD.

To go along with your tangent I would also like to hear about the Hale Foam Logix. vs. the FoamPro. Hale touts it as state of the art when compared to the "competitor" read FoamPro.

You too GFPD, I look forward to meeting you in the future. To add to the discussion, the Waterous systems also look very interesting, though their low end model looks to be featured closer to the FoamPro than the Hale as far as controls, display, etc.

I know some of the foam pumps allow you to "draft" from a pickup tube placed into a bucket, some of the pumps aren't capable of that kind of "lift." This could be a very worthwhile discussion even if we're going off on a branch of the CAFS discussion.

[neiowa]

I would definitely get an "AUTO-TANK FILL" system for any CAFSystem purchased. A nice way to do this is spec a Monarch intake valve (Waterous) or a MIV (Hale) intake valve. Have the truck builder (put in specs) "T" into the relief valve connection and then connect the Auto-Fill to this. It works very nice. You can plumb it to more than one of the intake valves and have the truck builder "manifold" them into one. So no matter what LDH connection is used the Auto-Fill will work. Both Waterous and Hale make and offer an Auto-Fill valve.
"

Can you post a sketch what this looks like? Cost effective as a retrofit?

You played with a Akron Saberjet on a CAFS line? Effective nozzle for use for CAFS in the Solid bore position?

[VanIsleEVT]

TC,

You know, we ran Hale pumps through the 70's, 80's and 90's and recently switched back to Waterous. Why, because in our newest applications ( rearmount ) I feel the Waterous S100 is the best option. Having said that, our Hales have been good to us, but the fact that I test about 25 pumps per year, I'd sooner test a quite Waterous. Besides, the 1899 still works great which says something doesn't it.

Now we're getting off topic aren't we.

[GFPD2005]

Well at least we are still talking about pumps!

Thanks to everyone again on all the information Im gathering. Unfortunately I think my battle for CAFS will be a losing battle. But Ill ask for it anyway and hope we at least retain a class A injection system. Ive read about this Vindicator nozzle and it appears alot of people use it in their class A systems to get a more aerated (closer to finished foam) stream. Maybe the closest I will get to CAFS this time.

Hopefully I can also spec an auto on system for the class A because all too often it is an afterthought...or a non-thought here. Any apparatus sales people care to tell me how much a FoamPro 2002 system costs (or a similar Advantus, Foam Logix) with just a class A tank + how much additional for the auto on option? I dont think id win on the tank fill system either, even though its a safety issue.

[Rescue101]

Hey, you started it.Like I said,I'm OK with Waterous,in fact our pump guy(tester)favors 'em.But we've had Hales since just after WW2 and we've enjoyed marvelous cost per hour (low)and outstanding service during our time with Hale.We "strayed"twice,once for a low budget truck and once for not knowing any better. Since Hale is smart enough to keep some parts common and we're all Hale(for the most part)in doesn't make much sense to change now.They've consistently exceeded rated capacity in the annual pump test,something I can't say about the other two.And the other two are old,with one being replaced when the new truck gets here.I can tell if my Hales are running right just by the sound they make when they're working.They just have a nice smooth sound when everything's right.Personally,I think Waterous has an edge on the Cafs system but I'd be happy with either system.What works for us may not be the best choice for others. But I'm VERY happy with our Hales. T.C.

[CaptLou]

Hi neiowa,

Here is a picture of my intake Auto-fill set up. Hope it explains it better.



"Cost effective as a retrofit?"
This is a question for your local dealer. I'm sure it will be under a million dollar.

I have played with the Saberjet. I would recommend a 15/16" insert. But As I have stated in prior posts, I always recommend a simple, inexpensive ball valve, with a 1 3/8" ball and a removable 15/16" tip. In my opinion this nozzle set up offers the most options on the fireground. The Saberjet works with CAFS, just limits your options.

Hope this helps.

Be safe,

Captain Lou
"Got Foam?"

[Bones42]

Capt. Lou, would love to spend some time in your area talking about CAFS. My rep, from Absolute, was going to try to set something up as we are speccing out an engine and putting serious consideration into CAFS.