1. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by jasper45 View Post
    Fields, save your breath, brother. The two twinks who are slamming your guys make it a habit to hang guys with virtually no information available, certainly nothing official.
    They never take into account equipment malfunctions, or other intangibles that are very possible in an accident, such as this.

    The facts in a case like this have no bearing on their opinions, as they would much rather use a security camera video, and then use that very limited video to fire someone.
    These are guys that I do not want crawling down a hallway with me, not that they would ever ge into a burning building in the first place.


    Please, let us know how your guys are, as well as the guys from E10.
    Perhaps you need to go back and read. I did mention brake failure as well as a possible traffic light malfunction. In my travels I have seen far too many close calls with guys driving trucks like they are in an Indy car. I've seen guys just take the right of way, and nearly crash.

    Yes there is an urgency, but if you wreck the truck on the way to the call you aren't doing anyone any good. If nothing else, this video is an excellent training video. And in training, you don't even need to mention equipment failure.

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    I'm with fieldseng2. I'm from St. Louis and know it's a darn good department. Everyone makes mistakes.

    Let's stop speculating until the official reports come out! Until then, it's just SPECULATION.

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    I started this thread to let our community know that this accident had occured so we may pray and hope that our brothers involved were OK. After the post, I actually discovered a friend was one of the brothers injured in this accident, so it truly struck a nerve.

    I am embarrassed that members of this forum would flame members of our "supposed" brotherhood before a single "fact" of this incident has been presented. Once the "facts" are presented, then conclusions may be drawn and appropriate actions taken to prevent these types incidents here or anywhere else. A phrase comes to mind, "assume" may make an a** out of you.

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    The thread was started in order to allow for thoughts and prayers to go out for those who were injured, and their families and brothers at work.

    It took about four posts for the finger-pointing to start. Brother Fields came into the thread to share some personal insight into this tragedy, and is deserving of some support.
    There are no facts out officially, there is no police-report out, officially. Everything we have in regard to accident details is purely speculation and guess work.

    There will be an investigation, there will be facts released at some point. Pardon us please, if some feel as though rushing to judgment is looked down upon. Cities and administrations are supposed to be the only ones who rush to pass judgment, not our own "brothers".


    That is what is sad about this whole thread, outside of the injured members. It's sad that some people who claim to be firefighters always have a contest to be the first one to pass judgment on an accident, or an incident, especially given that some of those passing judgment were hundreds, if not thousands of miles away at the time. There is no compassion given at all, and that is truly sad.

    Are all of these brothers even out of the hospital yet?

    Did anyone think of even asking how the injured were or are from brother Fields, before declaring a guilty party in this incident? Did anyone think that maybe we should wish them well first, or see how their families are doing?


    Nope. Inside of one page there were two posts, maybe three who had already decided who was in the wrong and why.
    Sorry, but I find this fact a bit disgusting.



    Take the finger pointing and blaming somewhere else, it has no place here or now.
    Last edited by jasper45; 10-14-2008 at 10:23 AM.

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    Call me a twink. That's ok.

    Never did I point a finger at either driver. However, unless a braking malfunction contributed to this accident, one of them is clearly and totally at fault. One of them failed to stop at a red light or stop a sign. Or failed to yield at a yield sign. Both are a voliation of due regard and possibly the law, even running hot. They are probably also against department SOP as I am very well aware the the SLFD had taken the lead in urban apparatus safety and operation.

    The fact is that unless a brake malfunction is involved, the actions of one of these drivers landed 7 brothers in the hospital and turned $800,000 wrth of fire truck into scrap. The fact is we may have been dealing with an LODD incident if all the brothers weren't belted.

    I do care about my brothers. I care about my brothers riding in trucks operated by drivers who feel that getting to the fire now is more important than traffic laws or intersection management SOPs or just slowing down. I care about the brothers who aren't belted in because the department is too lazy to write or enforce sealtbelt SOPs or have officers that don't educate thier men and force thier men to wear them because it's too much of a hassle. I care about my brothers who are passengers in trucks operated recklessly and driven at too high a speed.

    The simple fact is this accident, unless a brake malfundtion was envolved was 100% preventable. I challeneg you Jasper to give me a non-mechanical scenerio where this accident is not one of the driver's fault.

    I get sick when I see firefighters killed or injured in accidents with civilians, which are preventable the vast majority of the time. I get sicker when I see firefighters killed in accidents because they didn't wear thier seatbelts because of personal or department ignorance or indifference or laziness. I get downright ill when I see firefighters injured or killed in apparatus-apparatus accidents as they are almost 100% preventable.

    I care more about my boys than you know. That's why I teach smoke reading and RIT classes and jump all over drivers for driving with only one thing on thier mind.

    If the investigation reveals that it was mechanical, I'll acknowledge that. Short of that, blame needs to be assigned and thier needs to be firm concequences such as a long suspension or dismissal. What happened, in my mind, was that serious an offese.

    This making excuses for our behavior, when we are reponsible for it has to end.

  6. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    Call me a twink. That's ok.

    Never did I point a finger at either driver. However, unless a braking malfunction contributed to this accident, one of them is clearly and totally at fault. One of them failed to stop at a red light or stop a sign. Or failed to yield at a yield sign. Both are a voliation of due regard and possibly the law, even running hot. They are probably also against department SOP as I am very well aware the the SLFD had taken the lead in urban apparatus safety and operation.

    The fact is that unless a brake malfunction is involved, the actions of one of these drivers landed 7 brothers in the hospital and turned $800,000 wrth of fire truck into scrap. The fact is we may have been dealing with an LODD incident if all the brothers weren't belted.

    I do care about my brothers. I care about my brothers riding in trucks operated by drivers who feel that getting to the fire now is more important than traffic laws or intersection management SOPs or just slowing down. I care about the brothers who aren't belted in because the department is too lazy to write or enforce sealtbelt SOPs or have officers that don't educate thier men and force thier men to wear them because it's too much of a hassle. I care about my brothers who are passengers in trucks operated recklessly and driven at too high a speed.

    The simple fact is this accident, unless a brake malfundtion was envolved was 100% preventable. I challeneg you Jasper to give me a non-mechanical scenerio where this accident is not one of the driver's fault.

    I get sick when I see firefighters killed or injured in accidents with civilians, which are preventable the vast majority of the time. I get sicker when I see firefighters killed in accidents because they didn't wear thier seatbelts because of personal or department ignorance or indifference or laziness. I get downright ill when I see firefighters injured or killed in apparatus-apparatus accidents as they are almost 100% preventable.

    I care more about my boys than you know. That's why I teach smoke reading and RIT classes and jump all over drivers for driving with only one thing on thier mind.

    If the investigation reveals that it was mechanical, I'll acknowledge that. Short of that, blame needs to be assigned and thier needs to be firm concequences such as a long suspension or dismissal. What happened, in my mind, was that serious an offese.

    This making excuses for our behavior, when we are reponsible for it has to end.
    Coming from a man that acknowledges that his dept does nothing to combat the number 1 killer of firefighters in this country. Awesome.
    Proud East Coast Traditionalist.

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    Quote Originally Posted by jasper45 View Post
    The thread was started in order to allow for thoughts and prayers to go out for those who were injured, and their families and brothers at work.

    It took about four posts for the finger-pointing to start. Brother Fields came into the thread to share some personal insight into this tragedy, and is deserving of some support.
    There are no facts out officially, there is no police-report out, officially. Everything we have in regard to accident details is purely speculation and guess work.

    There will be an investigation, there will be facts released at some point. Pardon us please, if some feel as though rushing to judgment is looked down upon. Cities and administrations are supposed to be the only ones who rush to pass judgment, not our own "brothers".


    That is what is sad about this whole thread, outside of the injured members. It's sad that some people who claim to be firefighters always have a contest to be the first one to pass judgment on an accident, or an incident, especially given that some of those passing judgment were hundreds, if not thousands of miles away at the time. There is no compassion given at all, and that is truly sad.

    Are all of these brothers even out of the hospital yet?

    Did anyone think of even asking how the injured were or are from brother Fields, before declaring a guilty party in this incident? Did anyone think that maybe we should wish them well first, or see how their families are doing?

    Nope. Inside of one page there were two posts, maybe three who had already decided who was in the wrong and why.
    Sorry, but I find this fact a bit disgusting.

    Take the finger pointing and blaming somewhere else, it has no place here or now.
    There are two things that cause accidents. Mechanical failure and human error. So barring any mechanical failure, then 8 fire fighters and 2 pieces of equipment were destroyed do to human error.

    I hate seeing this. I would like to think that we as a group can prevent further incidents like this from happening again. Simple rule. Keep your vehicle in your control at all times and don't drive beyond your field of vision.

    I thought after the Lairdsville incident there would be no more needless training deaths, yet they continue. And we hear about these kinds of accidents all too often. The madness needs to stop.

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    Shields , im glad all of your guys sre ok .. its easy to see how upset your getting with the know it all types. Its understandable . For what it is worth i think that extra curricular info before the investigation is complete is not allways a great idea , esp. when it leads , and or, baits one into an argument that has personal ties. Not to mention , i gotta think the union probably doesnt want that kind of **** going on either .. Keep it in your house,, until all the facts are out .... Let the careless jerkoffs find another topic to screw with ... stay safe ,, and a quick recovery for the Brothers ...

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    I come back from days off and this is what I see. I was the first one to reply to fieldseng2's post and what did I say? NO MONDAY MORNING QUARTERBACKING!!! It took 4 posts before it happened. Absolutely disgusting!!

    It's great to see the so called "brothers/sisters" pull together for things but when something like this happens, we are the first to tear each other apart! This is disgusting!! You people make me sick!!! Even people in the same department have no clue as to what happened and you cowards have already completed your investigation before everyone gets out of the hospital!!

    What these guys need, and the entire department needs, is support to their families and friends. Support to get over the stress of the incident, injuries they suffered, and help to get them back on the job. What everyone else needs to do is shut up, stop finger pointing, and learn from it and review the way your department responds by reviewing your SOG's or doing what you can to change something to make responding as safe as possible.

    Thanks for the "brotherhood" jack*****es!!!



    fieldseng2------ Like Jasper said, don't waste your breath. These guys are classic for attacking other people, attacking department SOG's, attacking brothers/sisters, and jumping to conclusions. You get them wherever you go. Just ignore them, they have no clue anyway. Please relay to the injured and their families that at least the majority of us here, and the rest of the fire service worldwide have them in our thoughts and prayers and they do have OUR support. We wish them a speedy recovery back to the job.
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  10. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    Call me a twink. That's ok.

    No problem.

    Never did I point a finger at either driver. However, unless a braking malfunction contributed to this accident, one of them is clearly and totally at fault.

    Really? Here is an excerpt from your initial post:

    Conclusion based on the above observations:

    If there was a traffic control device for one of the drivers, which is likely, he/she failed to obey it and yield, by law to the other apparatus.

    In the unlikely even that there was not a traffic control device for one of the drivers, in all likleyhood a department the size of the SLFD has an intersection managing procedure dicating who stops and who goes through the intersection first. if that was the case, one of the driver's dodn't follow it.

    Hell even my current and lasst podunk FDs has/had a very clear intersection management policy for apparatus/apparatus right of way.

    I guess I'm not afraid to sugarcoat this bull**** and say right out that someone was wrong and someone needs to be suspended without pay or fired for voliating the law, or at the least, a likley department policy.

    I'm not against sugar coating bullsh*t, either, and I have no problem in calling it out when I smell it.

    I honestly don't know what is more sad, the fact you are perfectly willing to take a persons career from them, without ANY facts, or that you can't understand why no one respects you.


    There will be time for discipline, IF it is warranted. The key word is IF. You have no factual evidence, you have talked to zero witnesses or participants, you haven't even been to the accident scene to even look at things.

    No, all you have is what you saw from a couple of videos, at most. At the time you made your first post, you were more concerned about placing blame on someone, and disciplining them without any FACTUAL data, than you were about the conditions of the members who were injured. In fact, some were probably still in the hospital while you were busy tying a noose to hang someones career with-fact free. Real nice.

    That is what makes you ridiculous. Go back and read my posts again, before you show more foolishness. I didn't address the accident, or any of the circumstances around it. The goal was to express concern and sympathy for those members hurt. Something completely lost on you, still.


    Truly sad.
    Last edited by jasper45; 10-14-2008 at 05:05 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    .............If the investigation reveals that it was mechanical, I'll acknowledge that. Short of that, blame needs to be assigned and thier needs to be firm concequences such as a long suspension or dismissal. What happened, in my mind, was that serious an offese.

    This making excuses for our behavior, when we are reponsible for it has to end.
    What you and some others appear to be missing (or ignoring) is that the Brother from St. Louis isn't saying that "blame" should not be assigned, that there shouldn't be "firm consequences" nor that this isn't a "serious" issue. I also don't think he was attempting to "make excuses" for anyone's behavior in this incident.

    What I did see, was an attempt by several people on here to pass judgement about this particular incident with pretty much nothing more than an incomplete news article and a few seconds of poor video footage.

    Many of the general comments regarding the need for us to drive "carefully" and with "due regard" are on the money, but I don't think it's too much to ask that we simply pause for a few moments and worry about our injured Brothers first and wait for the "facts" to come out before rounding up the lynchmob for these guys.

    Is there a good chance that somebody made a serious "error"? Yes, but won't we all look pretty foolish if we're "calling for these guys' heads" right now and the investigation later shows that's not justified.

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    And what if some neighborhood kids removed a stop sign? I'm sure nothing like that has ever happened.

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    Jasper, you are right. I did blame one of the two drivers.... I just didn't blame a specific driver.

    I'm not in a position to take anyone's career from them. But I know how I feel about this topic. At my FT ambo job, if I hit a vehicle on a red light or a stop sign, it would be my job. Period. We had a full-timer blow through a red on my part-time/vollie firefighting gig and the chief suspended him w/out pay for 2 months. Vollie did the same thing and he was suspended for 6 months.

    This is the type of event that screams dimissal fort the driver who did not yield the right of way.

    Maybe there was some mechanical circumstance that caused this, but after looking at it I honestly cannot see anything think of a scenerio where it was clear as day, either by law or department policy who had the right of way.

    NY ..

    This sin't the place for this discussion but every time you bring up cardiac issues I simply ask you for a solution to replace the firefighters you are going to lose in the vollie ranks, and how you are going to replace them, as well as how the majority of vollie FDs would even pay for a screening program. And everytime, you offer no answer.

    If you are going to address an issue, have a solution for the problem.

    And by the way, we now require our FT firefighter to do 45 minutes if exercise per shift and the daytime part-timer 30 minutes. We are also working on a volunteer fitness incentive based on BP and cholesterol screenings done as a part of thier normal checkups (at thier cost). There will be some type of mandatory non-compensated standard for the FT folks tied into that.

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    Jason Knecht
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    First off....

    Let me say thank you to EVERYONE.....for your words of support. All 8 Brothers are now out of the hospital, and recovering.


    I have a request from all of you.....

    Let's take a break from all of this bickering.....and take a moment to remember, and say a prayer for the family of Brother Bill Miller of the Blue Mound Vol. Fire Department in the great state (my home state) of Illinois.

    This is a LODD invovling an accident with apparatus during a training exercise...

    http://cms.firehouse.com/content/art...Id=46&id=61290

    Rest in Peace Brother.....

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    RIP Brother...



    Please, everyone.........show some respect!
    Jason Knecht
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    Just curious....but when the "facts" of the collision are known...will they be posted so other fire fighters can learn from them?
    "This thread is being closed as it is off-topic and not related to the fire industry." - Isn't that what the Off Duty forum was for?

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    Just curious....but when the "facts" of the collision are known...will they be posted so other fire fighters can learn from them?
    Absolutely......

    Anyone on these forums that knows me, knows I always try to share knowledge, experience, and any info I can.

    And if it turns out it was operator error...we can talk about that too. There are guys working in this firehouse that only know as much as you do. No one is jumping to conclusions.

    We've been talking about what "might have happened"...heard some rumors, stories, and "somebody told me that........." kind of stuff. But, we haven't been told anything official yet.

    Of course, every one seems to be using a little extra caution while driving.....

    Our first three runs of the day have been...2 "Smoke in the buildings...." and "A 1st Alarm for a report of heavy smoke" in a well known hi-rise. We were 1st due at the hi-rise and 3rd in on the other two...I noticed the driver taking extra time thru interectons, and weaving thru traffic. even our 1st in run.

    We've had a few EMS runs, including a shooting....and I can say we still responded with a sense of urgency while using caution.

    Again....when there is info that I can share....I will pass it on as soon as I can.

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    Glad to hear all involved in the St. Louis incident are going to be okay. And RIP Brother Miller.

    Unfortunately, the usual handful of MUTTS on here always chime in from their ivory towers and spew their B.S.

    Fields, I was very impressed with your ability to maintain your composure with the morons.

    Also glad to see there are some that still stand up for their Brothers and don't throw them under the bus on a whim.

    Stay safe.
    Last edited by fyrmnk; 10-15-2008 at 08:01 PM.
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    So sad and such a young guy just trying to help out his neighbors. His family and whole community in my prayers for sure.

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    I know someone has posted the video of the crash from down the street, but Dave Statter just linked to close-up footage of the wreck. Ouch.

    http://www.wusa9.com/news/columnist/...ion-of-st.html

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    Last edited by don120; 10-21-2008 at 01:45 PM. Reason: adding new link

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    oops double post]




    Don

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    That one pretty much says it all.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ScareCrow57 View Post
    That one pretty much says it all.
    OK.. so if this video says it all, please look at the video and tell me all of the following:

    1. Was the traffic light that the driver of the truck coming towards the camera functioning correctly? When I look at the video, I can only see the light facing the opposite direction.

    2. Was the driver of the truck coming towards the camera having a heart attack or a seizure before he entered the intersection? Maybe you can see exactly what's going on in the cab of that truck, but I can't.

    3. Did the driver of the truck coming towards the camera think that the cross street was closed to traffic? It looks like there was some construction going on there... but maybe this video let's you see into his mind...

    Seriously.. I don't think ANYONE who's posted in this thread has argued that the driver should be given a pass for blowing the light.. IF that's what happened. It's just that there are going to be countless people in other places calling for his head without knowing all the facts... so WHY would people who are supposedly his brothers pile on before all of the facts are known and the investigation is complete. If there was one place on the web where someone could look to for support instead of instant criticism and condemnation... I would hope it would be here. But I guess not.

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