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  1. #21
    MembersZone Subscriber fieldseng2's Avatar
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    hmmm....not this again
    not what again?

    I am merely stating that is a run we often get more than once a shift. Other companies in the city (I'm not saying anything about any other department) might get that run once a month....or even less.

    Sometimes it turns out to be a fire in an occupied building, a fully involved abandoned building, or sometimes even outside rubbish on the porch.

    I remember being young in this business....back when I was a volley........when the dispatcher announced "fire in a building"...we all know what that feeling is like......the adrenaline racing......we felt like we had to go warp speed to get there no matter what....

    this was a common run for these guys...especially on that particular street. I'll bet I've been to a dozen fires on that street this year in that neighborhood. Most of them were vacant buildings w/an offensive stand. That's just my shift when I was working.

    I'm not saying they are complacent either.....they still act with a sense of urgency w/out being careless....

    Thanks Jasper...yeah I know....I'm just trying to be polite...it's one thing being my department.......however one of the companies involved is MY company....guys I see everyday at shift change.....If they can have their say and slam my Brothers....I'm certainly gonna stick up for them...

    All I'm saying to YOU "nameless"..."scarecrow"...and "educator"..........you don't know dink about what happened...hell...I don't even know all the details......before you crucify my Brothers.....you better have something substantial...

    Hell even my current and lasst podunk FDs has/had a very clear intersection management policy for apparatus/apparatus right of way.

    I guess I'm not afraid to sugarcoat this bull**** and say right out that someone was wrong and someone needs to be suspended without pay or fired for voliating the law, or at the least, a likley department policy.
    "podunk fire department"...I'm sure it's a great dept. I used to be a member of one of those.

    As far as an "apparatus management policy"....it was before my time, but I do believe we were one of the first big departments to implement an "On the Quiet" policy...accidents have been significantly reduced w/no loss of life or property to date implementing it.

    We have fairly strict safety guidelines, and VERY detailed SOPs over just about everything...including driving apparatus.

    And...

    FIVE times a day...."Fire Alarm" announces over the radio/house speakers...

    "Attention....Drivers of apparatus SHALL use caution when responding to ALL alarms.....members riding apparatus SHALL wear seat belts at all times..."

    We are a very safety oriented department....we are far from perfect...sometimes mistakes are made....maybe....indeed....we will find out that will be the case here....but a few seconds of video and news reports are hardly substantial and/or conclusive....

    I know you guys aren't dummies...and if this was your department...you wouldn't want anyone saying jack about the people you work with day in and day out with....

    so why don't we do something constructive with this thread...and discuss how lucky these guys are be be alive, safe, and able to go home to their families...lets share ideas, and each others departments training and policies regarding safe apparatus operation. Lets discuss how we can share these ideas with ALL of our Brothers/Sisters so things like this are a rare occurrence or better yet...not happen at all......


  2. #22
    Forum Member HeavyRescueTech's Avatar
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    no offense bro, but the only reason you are taking such offense to this is because it was your department, and your company. Don't get me wrong, I would do the same if it was my department and my company, but if you took a step back and looked at it from the outside, outside your company, outside your department, and outside the fire service, you would see things differently.

    to start with, lets look at it from the PD's point of view. MOST accidents are preventable. hence the change in terminology form motor vehicle accidents to motor vehicle collisions to traffic collisions. accident implies it was no ones fault, and was not preventable, when in reality that is usually not the case. In general of course, not specific to this situation.

    Now, I (and everyone on here) are glad your brothers were not injured.

    but the truth is, whether you are from big city FD to podunk FD, that most crashesare preventable. And no one likes it when it's your department that gets plastered over the front page. and well know that what the rules have in writing and what actually happens on the road can often be quite different.

    We should strive to avoid those avoidable accidents. and if it was a vehicle failure, then management should be held responsible to ensure you are driving a safe vehicle. and if the driver suffered a medical emergency, then I hope he recovers.

    and if it wasn't driver error, I'm sure the ensuing investigation will exonerate all parties involved. Again, I'm glad to hear that all parties are doing well.

    BTW, if you don't have a different reaction when you are going first due to a worker, than when you go to an AFA or medical local, then you guys would be the first firefighters I know that have that reaction. Most do respond differently, at least in my experience (and that's knowing both paid and volunteer firefighters, as well as two hatters).
    Last edited by DrParasite; 10-13-2008 at 10:21 PM.
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  3. #23
    MembersZone Subscriber fieldseng2's Avatar
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    no offense bro, but the only reason you are taking such offense to this is because it was your department, and your company. Don't get me wrong, I would do the same if it was my department and my company, but if you took a step back and looked at it from the outside, outside your company, outside your department, and outside the fire service, you would see things differently.

    Yeah...I am....but if you read my posts.....I AM asking everyone to take a step back......you saw a brief video....read a news report or two....and everyone has it figured out.....come on guys...you're smarter than that....

    BTW, if you don't have a different reaction when you are going first due to a worker, than when you go to an AFA or medical local, then you guys would be the first firefighters I know that have that reaction.
    I didn't say that either. What I did say was we have a higher frequency of that type of call, and yes.....there is still a rush.....but typically a more controlled rush....Think of an emergency you get almost daily.....a real emergency.....you still get a rush....but don't lose your mind either.


    I'm not saying these guys are totally innocent victims.....it is possible mistakes were made...but NONE of us know that with the info presented to us.....

  4. #24
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    Well, to me it SEEMS/APPEARS that the truck coming from the left either had a green light OR didn't slow down enough to stop if required.

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    Fields, I'am right across the river and don't let these monday morning quaterbacks get to you. The department I previosely worked for had an ladder go on it's side this year while responding to a call. The public had a few calling for some type of discipline for the driver before a seperate PD had finished the investigation. When it came out it was the the drivers fault but just and accident. The driver was well below the speed limit and it was found that the weather and road ( not conditions, but the maint. that had been done on it) was the cause of the accident. Some people just like to through in their comments because they fell tough on here and no one else around them will listen to them.

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    Quote Originally Posted by jasper45 View Post
    Fields, save your breath, brother. The two twinks who are slamming your guys make it a habit to hang guys with virtually no information available, certainly nothing official.
    They never take into account equipment malfunctions, or other intangibles that are very possible in an accident, such as this.

    The facts in a case like this have no bearing on their opinions, as they would much rather use a security camera video, and then use that very limited video to fire someone.
    These are guys that I do not want crawling down a hallway with me, not that they would ever ge into a burning building in the first place.


    Please, let us know how your guys are, as well as the guys from E10.
    Perhaps you need to go back and read. I did mention brake failure as well as a possible traffic light malfunction. In my travels I have seen far too many close calls with guys driving trucks like they are in an Indy car. I've seen guys just take the right of way, and nearly crash.

    Yes there is an urgency, but if you wreck the truck on the way to the call you aren't doing anyone any good. If nothing else, this video is an excellent training video. And in training, you don't even need to mention equipment failure.

  7. #27
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    I'm with fieldseng2. I'm from St. Louis and know it's a darn good department. Everyone makes mistakes.

    Let's stop speculating until the official reports come out! Until then, it's just SPECULATION.

  8. #28
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    I started this thread to let our community know that this accident had occured so we may pray and hope that our brothers involved were OK. After the post, I actually discovered a friend was one of the brothers injured in this accident, so it truly struck a nerve.

    I am embarrassed that members of this forum would flame members of our "supposed" brotherhood before a single "fact" of this incident has been presented. Once the "facts" are presented, then conclusions may be drawn and appropriate actions taken to prevent these types incidents here or anywhere else. A phrase comes to mind, "assume" may make an a** out of you.

  9. #29
    the 4-1-4 Jasper 45's Avatar
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    The thread was started in order to allow for thoughts and prayers to go out for those who were injured, and their families and brothers at work.

    It took about four posts for the finger-pointing to start. Brother Fields came into the thread to share some personal insight into this tragedy, and is deserving of some support.
    There are no facts out officially, there is no police-report out, officially. Everything we have in regard to accident details is purely speculation and guess work.

    There will be an investigation, there will be facts released at some point. Pardon us please, if some feel as though rushing to judgment is looked down upon. Cities and administrations are supposed to be the only ones who rush to pass judgment, not our own "brothers".


    That is what is sad about this whole thread, outside of the injured members. It's sad that some people who claim to be firefighters always have a contest to be the first one to pass judgment on an accident, or an incident, especially given that some of those passing judgment were hundreds, if not thousands of miles away at the time. There is no compassion given at all, and that is truly sad.

    Are all of these brothers even out of the hospital yet?

    Did anyone think of even asking how the injured were or are from brother Fields, before declaring a guilty party in this incident? Did anyone think that maybe we should wish them well first, or see how their families are doing?


    Nope. Inside of one page there were two posts, maybe three who had already decided who was in the wrong and why.
    Sorry, but I find this fact a bit disgusting.



    Take the finger pointing and blaming somewhere else, it has no place here or now.
    Last edited by jasper45; 10-14-2008 at 10:23 AM.

  10. #30
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    Call me a twink. That's ok.

    Never did I point a finger at either driver. However, unless a braking malfunction contributed to this accident, one of them is clearly and totally at fault. One of them failed to stop at a red light or stop a sign. Or failed to yield at a yield sign. Both are a voliation of due regard and possibly the law, even running hot. They are probably also against department SOP as I am very well aware the the SLFD had taken the lead in urban apparatus safety and operation.

    The fact is that unless a brake malfunction is involved, the actions of one of these drivers landed 7 brothers in the hospital and turned $800,000 wrth of fire truck into scrap. The fact is we may have been dealing with an LODD incident if all the brothers weren't belted.

    I do care about my brothers. I care about my brothers riding in trucks operated by drivers who feel that getting to the fire now is more important than traffic laws or intersection management SOPs or just slowing down. I care about the brothers who aren't belted in because the department is too lazy to write or enforce sealtbelt SOPs or have officers that don't educate thier men and force thier men to wear them because it's too much of a hassle. I care about my brothers who are passengers in trucks operated recklessly and driven at too high a speed.

    The simple fact is this accident, unless a brake malfundtion was envolved was 100% preventable. I challeneg you Jasper to give me a non-mechanical scenerio where this accident is not one of the driver's fault.

    I get sick when I see firefighters killed or injured in accidents with civilians, which are preventable the vast majority of the time. I get sicker when I see firefighters killed in accidents because they didn't wear thier seatbelts because of personal or department ignorance or indifference or laziness. I get downright ill when I see firefighters injured or killed in apparatus-apparatus accidents as they are almost 100% preventable.

    I care more about my boys than you know. That's why I teach smoke reading and RIT classes and jump all over drivers for driving with only one thing on thier mind.

    If the investigation reveals that it was mechanical, I'll acknowledge that. Short of that, blame needs to be assigned and thier needs to be firm concequences such as a long suspension or dismissal. What happened, in my mind, was that serious an offese.

    This making excuses for our behavior, when we are reponsible for it has to end.

  11. #31
    Forum Member nyckftbl's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    Call me a twink. That's ok.

    Never did I point a finger at either driver. However, unless a braking malfunction contributed to this accident, one of them is clearly and totally at fault. One of them failed to stop at a red light or stop a sign. Or failed to yield at a yield sign. Both are a voliation of due regard and possibly the law, even running hot. They are probably also against department SOP as I am very well aware the the SLFD had taken the lead in urban apparatus safety and operation.

    The fact is that unless a brake malfunction is involved, the actions of one of these drivers landed 7 brothers in the hospital and turned $800,000 wrth of fire truck into scrap. The fact is we may have been dealing with an LODD incident if all the brothers weren't belted.

    I do care about my brothers. I care about my brothers riding in trucks operated by drivers who feel that getting to the fire now is more important than traffic laws or intersection management SOPs or just slowing down. I care about the brothers who aren't belted in because the department is too lazy to write or enforce sealtbelt SOPs or have officers that don't educate thier men and force thier men to wear them because it's too much of a hassle. I care about my brothers who are passengers in trucks operated recklessly and driven at too high a speed.

    The simple fact is this accident, unless a brake malfundtion was envolved was 100% preventable. I challeneg you Jasper to give me a non-mechanical scenerio where this accident is not one of the driver's fault.

    I get sick when I see firefighters killed or injured in accidents with civilians, which are preventable the vast majority of the time. I get sicker when I see firefighters killed in accidents because they didn't wear thier seatbelts because of personal or department ignorance or indifference or laziness. I get downright ill when I see firefighters injured or killed in apparatus-apparatus accidents as they are almost 100% preventable.

    I care more about my boys than you know. That's why I teach smoke reading and RIT classes and jump all over drivers for driving with only one thing on thier mind.

    If the investigation reveals that it was mechanical, I'll acknowledge that. Short of that, blame needs to be assigned and thier needs to be firm concequences such as a long suspension or dismissal. What happened, in my mind, was that serious an offese.

    This making excuses for our behavior, when we are reponsible for it has to end.
    Coming from a man that acknowledges that his dept does nothing to combat the number 1 killer of firefighters in this country. Awesome.
    Proud East Coast Traditionalist.

  12. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by jasper45 View Post
    The thread was started in order to allow for thoughts and prayers to go out for those who were injured, and their families and brothers at work.

    It took about four posts for the finger-pointing to start. Brother Fields came into the thread to share some personal insight into this tragedy, and is deserving of some support.
    There are no facts out officially, there is no police-report out, officially. Everything we have in regard to accident details is purely speculation and guess work.

    There will be an investigation, there will be facts released at some point. Pardon us please, if some feel as though rushing to judgment is looked down upon. Cities and administrations are supposed to be the only ones who rush to pass judgment, not our own "brothers".


    That is what is sad about this whole thread, outside of the injured members. It's sad that some people who claim to be firefighters always have a contest to be the first one to pass judgment on an accident, or an incident, especially given that some of those passing judgment were hundreds, if not thousands of miles away at the time. There is no compassion given at all, and that is truly sad.

    Are all of these brothers even out of the hospital yet?

    Did anyone think of even asking how the injured were or are from brother Fields, before declaring a guilty party in this incident? Did anyone think that maybe we should wish them well first, or see how their families are doing?

    Nope. Inside of one page there were two posts, maybe three who had already decided who was in the wrong and why.
    Sorry, but I find this fact a bit disgusting.

    Take the finger pointing and blaming somewhere else, it has no place here or now.
    There are two things that cause accidents. Mechanical failure and human error. So barring any mechanical failure, then 8 fire fighters and 2 pieces of equipment were destroyed do to human error.

    I hate seeing this. I would like to think that we as a group can prevent further incidents like this from happening again. Simple rule. Keep your vehicle in your control at all times and don't drive beyond your field of vision.

    I thought after the Lairdsville incident there would be no more needless training deaths, yet they continue. And we hear about these kinds of accidents all too often. The madness needs to stop.

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    Shields , im glad all of your guys sre ok .. its easy to see how upset your getting with the know it all types. Its understandable . For what it is worth i think that extra curricular info before the investigation is complete is not allways a great idea , esp. when it leads , and or, baits one into an argument that has personal ties. Not to mention , i gotta think the union probably doesnt want that kind of **** going on either .. Keep it in your house,, until all the facts are out .... Let the careless jerkoffs find another topic to screw with ... stay safe ,, and a quick recovery for the Brothers ...

  14. #34
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    I come back from days off and this is what I see. I was the first one to reply to fieldseng2's post and what did I say? NO MONDAY MORNING QUARTERBACKING!!! It took 4 posts before it happened. Absolutely disgusting!!

    It's great to see the so called "brothers/sisters" pull together for things but when something like this happens, we are the first to tear each other apart! This is disgusting!! You people make me sick!!! Even people in the same department have no clue as to what happened and you cowards have already completed your investigation before everyone gets out of the hospital!!

    What these guys need, and the entire department needs, is support to their families and friends. Support to get over the stress of the incident, injuries they suffered, and help to get them back on the job. What everyone else needs to do is shut up, stop finger pointing, and learn from it and review the way your department responds by reviewing your SOG's or doing what you can to change something to make responding as safe as possible.

    Thanks for the "brotherhood" jack*****es!!!



    fieldseng2------ Like Jasper said, don't waste your breath. These guys are classic for attacking other people, attacking department SOG's, attacking brothers/sisters, and jumping to conclusions. You get them wherever you go. Just ignore them, they have no clue anyway. Please relay to the injured and their families that at least the majority of us here, and the rest of the fire service worldwide have them in our thoughts and prayers and they do have OUR support. We wish them a speedy recovery back to the job.
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  15. #35
    the 4-1-4 Jasper 45's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    Call me a twink. That's ok.

    No problem.

    Never did I point a finger at either driver. However, unless a braking malfunction contributed to this accident, one of them is clearly and totally at fault.

    Really? Here is an excerpt from your initial post:

    Conclusion based on the above observations:

    If there was a traffic control device for one of the drivers, which is likely, he/she failed to obey it and yield, by law to the other apparatus.

    In the unlikely even that there was not a traffic control device for one of the drivers, in all likleyhood a department the size of the SLFD has an intersection managing procedure dicating who stops and who goes through the intersection first. if that was the case, one of the driver's dodn't follow it.

    Hell even my current and lasst podunk FDs has/had a very clear intersection management policy for apparatus/apparatus right of way.

    I guess I'm not afraid to sugarcoat this bull**** and say right out that someone was wrong and someone needs to be suspended without pay or fired for voliating the law, or at the least, a likley department policy.

    I'm not against sugar coating bullsh*t, either, and I have no problem in calling it out when I smell it.

    I honestly don't know what is more sad, the fact you are perfectly willing to take a persons career from them, without ANY facts, or that you can't understand why no one respects you.


    There will be time for discipline, IF it is warranted. The key word is IF. You have no factual evidence, you have talked to zero witnesses or participants, you haven't even been to the accident scene to even look at things.

    No, all you have is what you saw from a couple of videos, at most. At the time you made your first post, you were more concerned about placing blame on someone, and disciplining them without any FACTUAL data, than you were about the conditions of the members who were injured. In fact, some were probably still in the hospital while you were busy tying a noose to hang someones career with-fact free. Real nice.

    That is what makes you ridiculous. Go back and read my posts again, before you show more foolishness. I didn't address the accident, or any of the circumstances around it. The goal was to express concern and sympathy for those members hurt. Something completely lost on you, still.


    Truly sad.
    Last edited by jasper45; 10-14-2008 at 05:05 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    .............If the investigation reveals that it was mechanical, I'll acknowledge that. Short of that, blame needs to be assigned and thier needs to be firm concequences such as a long suspension or dismissal. What happened, in my mind, was that serious an offese.

    This making excuses for our behavior, when we are reponsible for it has to end.
    What you and some others appear to be missing (or ignoring) is that the Brother from St. Louis isn't saying that "blame" should not be assigned, that there shouldn't be "firm consequences" nor that this isn't a "serious" issue. I also don't think he was attempting to "make excuses" for anyone's behavior in this incident.

    What I did see, was an attempt by several people on here to pass judgement about this particular incident with pretty much nothing more than an incomplete news article and a few seconds of poor video footage.

    Many of the general comments regarding the need for us to drive "carefully" and with "due regard" are on the money, but I don't think it's too much to ask that we simply pause for a few moments and worry about our injured Brothers first and wait for the "facts" to come out before rounding up the lynchmob for these guys.

    Is there a good chance that somebody made a serious "error"? Yes, but won't we all look pretty foolish if we're "calling for these guys' heads" right now and the investigation later shows that's not justified.

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    And what if some neighborhood kids removed a stop sign? I'm sure nothing like that has ever happened.

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    Jasper, you are right. I did blame one of the two drivers.... I just didn't blame a specific driver.

    I'm not in a position to take anyone's career from them. But I know how I feel about this topic. At my FT ambo job, if I hit a vehicle on a red light or a stop sign, it would be my job. Period. We had a full-timer blow through a red on my part-time/vollie firefighting gig and the chief suspended him w/out pay for 2 months. Vollie did the same thing and he was suspended for 6 months.

    This is the type of event that screams dimissal fort the driver who did not yield the right of way.

    Maybe there was some mechanical circumstance that caused this, but after looking at it I honestly cannot see anything think of a scenerio where it was clear as day, either by law or department policy who had the right of way.

    NY ..

    This sin't the place for this discussion but every time you bring up cardiac issues I simply ask you for a solution to replace the firefighters you are going to lose in the vollie ranks, and how you are going to replace them, as well as how the majority of vollie FDs would even pay for a screening program. And everytime, you offer no answer.

    If you are going to address an issue, have a solution for the problem.

    And by the way, we now require our FT firefighter to do 45 minutes if exercise per shift and the daytime part-timer 30 minutes. We are also working on a volunteer fitness incentive based on BP and cholesterol screenings done as a part of thier normal checkups (at thier cost). There will be some type of mandatory non-compensated standard for the FT folks tied into that.

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    Jason Knecht
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  20. #40
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    First off....

    Let me say thank you to EVERYONE.....for your words of support. All 8 Brothers are now out of the hospital, and recovering.


    I have a request from all of you.....

    Let's take a break from all of this bickering.....and take a moment to remember, and say a prayer for the family of Brother Bill Miller of the Blue Mound Vol. Fire Department in the great state (my home state) of Illinois.

    This is a LODD invovling an accident with apparatus during a training exercise...

    http://cms.firehouse.com/content/art...Id=46&id=61290

    Rest in Peace Brother.....

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