1. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by GregMasters View Post
    ... so WHY would people who are supposedly his brothers pile on before all of the facts are known and the investigation is complete.

    Please understand one thing. You are talking to a person who used the death of a 16 year old junior/explorer in Wyoming to post adult pictures and make jokes of her death (got thrown off), expressed the NEED to have alcohol in the firehouse to maintain firefighters (got thrown off), has repeatedly shown poor judgment, thought, comprehension, stupidity, attitude etc etc in another return (got thrown off, seeing a trend here) and is now on ANOTHER screen name.

    But fear not, I've already sent 3 emails to the Web team asking how if someone is permanently banned, they have returned and are allowed to stay. I am sure the web team is all over this When they see fit to getting around to it, CDeove, HotTrotter, beerboy and his other alias will be removed, again.

    He is not a Brother. He has nothing to do with the Brotherhood. Don't ever assume he does. It is best for your own sanity.
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    Thanks to GregMasters for pointing out that all the facts havent been revealed. I know most will think the video pretty much says it all, but until we know if there was an apparatus issue and/or one or both of the drivers became impaired for some reason.....lets hold on to that thought...

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    Quote Originally Posted by fieldseng2 View Post
    Thanks to GregMasters for pointing out that all the facts havent been revealed. I know most will think the video pretty much says it all, but until we know if there was an apparatus issue and/or one or both of the drivers became impaired for some reason.....lets hold on to that thought...
    The new video appears to me that 122 should be turning left, but never started his turn, or never looked like he was going to turn. Kind of looks like it could also be a brake issue with 122.

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    Quote Originally Posted by DocVBFDE14 View Post
    Please understand one thing. You are talking to a person who used the death of a 16 year old junior/explorer in Wyoming to post adult pictures and make jokes of her death (got thrown off), expressed the NEED to have alcohol in the firehouse to maintain firefighters (got thrown off), has repeatedly shown poor judgment, thought, comprehension, stupidity, attitude etc etc in another return (got thrown off, seeing a trend here) and is now on ANOTHER screen name.

    But fear not, I've already sent 3 emails to the Web team asking how if someone is permanently banned, they have returned and are allowed to stay. I am sure the web team is all over this When they see fit to getting around to it, CDeove, HotTrotter, beerboy and his other alias will be removed, again.

    He is not a Brother. He has nothing to do with the Brotherhood. Don't ever assume he does. It is best for your own sanity.
    My friend, I believe you to be sadly confused. I would never make a joke about someones death. That is the one thing I believe has no place in the fire service. Again, alcohol in the firehouse is stupid. There are plenty of non-work sites where one can have a cold brew. Local restaurants/bars, associations, and simply ones home.

    As for the rest of your post, pure nonsense.

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    Quote Originally Posted by GregMasters View Post
    OK.. so if this video says it all, please look at the video and tell me all of the following:

    1. Was the traffic light that the driver of the truck coming towards the camera functioning correctly? When I look at the video, I can only see the light facing the opposite direction.

    2. Was the driver of the truck coming towards the camera having a heart attack or a seizure before he entered the intersection? Maybe you can see exactly what's going on in the cab of that truck, but I can't.

    3. Did the driver of the truck coming towards the camera think that the cross street was closed to traffic? It looks like there was some construction going on there... but maybe this video let's you see into his mind...

    Seriously.. I don't think ANYONE who's posted in this thread has argued that the driver should be given a pass for blowing the light.. IF that's what happened. It's just that there are going to be countless people in other places calling for his head without knowing all the facts... so WHY would people who are supposedly his brothers pile on before all of the facts are known and the investigation is complete. If there was one place on the web where someone could look to for support instead of instant criticism and condemnation... I would hope it would be here. But I guess not.
    My friend, it appears you are making the decisions about this not me. All I said was this last video pretty much shows it all. You draw your own conclusions.

    What I saw was two trucks that didn't slow for an intersection.

    It appears that one of those trucks had a green light. It appears that the other truck should have had a red light. This assumes the light was working properly.

    We don't know if there was a mechanical failure. We also don't know if there was some sort of medical condition with one of the drivers.

    Now I'm not passing judgment on these guys because I don't know all of the details. I do know that we will be using this video in our training exercises. Points to be made in training. Always slow for an intersection, even if you have a green light. Drive within your field of vision. If you are coming into a spot with low or restricted vision slow down. Never assume you have the right away. Never assume everyone sees you or hears you.

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    these little arguments are so funny. One person makes conclusions about a video possibly assiging blame to a driver, then another person jumps in and starts making up "what if's", some believable, some out there. How about no one fills in the blanks until we get the facts, is that so hard?



    The video shows enough for us anyways. Regardless of who caused it, two fire trucks collided and we can see the graphic results. We can also see how seatbelts helped protect these guys. The important thing is nobody wants to be in an accident and no one wants to hurt anyone else. Videos like this should make us all think "wow I never want to be in that position" and you should be reflecting what you can do in your own life to prevent yourself from ending up in that position. I really do not have a concern what led up to the accident, this video reinforces the reality of what happens when two fire trucks collide.

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    It appears as though it's Ok to "assume" there are other issues involved, but not Ok to "assume" a driver made an error.

    Interesting.
    "This thread is being closed as it is off-topic and not related to the fire industry." - Isn't that what the Off Duty forum was for?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bones42 View Post
    It appears as though it's Ok to "assume" there are other issues involved, but not Ok to "assume" a driver made an error.

    Interesting.

    bones your right, so far 3 pages of opinions but no one knows the facts. it might be best to wait until the final report comes out before passing judgment. then use the findings to help us make sure this never happens too us.
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    KSDK-- It happened a little more than a week ago. Two St. Louis fire trucks collided on the way to a fire in North St. Louis. As it turns out, the whole thing was captured by the red light camera in the intersection and someone has just posted that video on the website You Tube.

    City officials have been reviewing every aspect of this video, trying to understand how the accident happened. However, they were hoping the public wouldn't see it, at least until after their investigation was complete.

    Fire Chief Dennis Jenkerson says, "If this doesn't make you stop and think before you start driving some of these trucks, you shouldn't be driving."

    The video shows one fire truck on Martin Luther King, the other on Taylor and then the two colliding in the intersection. It was a massive accident with only minor injuries to the eight firefighters involved.

    And now the tape has been posted for everyone to see on the website you tube.

    Jenkerson says, "When the guys see this this is going to have an immediate impact on them cause its so graphic. It's a violent accident."

    City officials began reviewing the video immediately after the crash. It came from a recently installed red light camera at the intersection. As for who posted it on the website You Tube, that remains a mystery.

    The fire chief says this tape is just part of a lengthy investigation. He says they're talking to everyone involved about what they could hear and see before the crash.

    He says, "One or both of these drivers might have been looking at the fire. And the heavy smoke coming off this building."

    Director of Public Safety, Charles Bryson isn't pleased that the tape has been released to the public. However, he thinks it will become a valuable training tool for the department.

    Bryson says, "Go over it and see do we need to change policies in any way shape or form and what do we need to tell to our new recruits."

    The fire chief actually brought recruits to the scene that day. He wants them to learn from what happened.

    He says, "Same situation all over again, I don't know if we'd be so lucky. That's why we want to take that same situation and make sure we don't have it ever again."

    The fire department expects its investigation to be completed in about a week. They will then determine whether any punishment or policy changes are in order. One thing they're already planning is a safe driving class for firefighter

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    Something I didn't get to see when I went to the accident site, but the news had footage of last night (the same report firemedickyle quoted)......

    The fire was on the very next block to E28's (E122) left...and on the footage you can see HEAVY black smoke coming from the building.

    So why didn't the 28's turn left? I don't know....but here are a few thoughts of MY OWN.....

    Did they know E10 was coming from somewhere other than quarters?? I dont know

    E10 obviously wasn't.....I know this from the direction they were coming....when any company is "On the Air" and is dispatched to a run we are supposed to announce our location so everyone knows where we are....Fire Alarm repeats this info.....Did E10 do that, did Fire Alarm repeat it, and did E28 hear them say so??? I don't know.

    But...... lets say E28 was assuming the 10's were coming from quarters (again I don't know this info). our SOP's state rigs are not to be positioned "nose to nose" at incidents.....the theory behind this is....an additional water supply might have to be laid, and a reverse lay may have to be done....so 3rd and 4th in engines usually back down the block to the fire....2nd in company does truck work and usually pulls up BEHIND the 1st in...as long as there is room for the Hook&Ladder....

    E10 probably would have been booked in 1st...E28 2nd...but in fact it's usually a crap shoot....sometimes we(E28) are booked 1st in this area, and the 10's 2nd...and they beat us in.....sometimes the opposite happens....

    So on this day....IF the 28's were booked 2nd..and they assumed they were gonna be....they knew they were gonna do "truck work" according to our SOPs....and assuming the 10's were coming from quarters(which we now know they weren't)....they(E28) would have positioned themselves behind the 10's at the fire....which would explain why E28s didn't appear to be turning north (left) on Taylor....instead...they were going around the block for proper positioning according to SOPs.......

    This doesn't excuse what happened, but may explain why E28 didn't appear to be turning towards the fire.....just a theory of MY OWN.....


    I'm not trying to say there is no way at all the drivers and/or officers are not at fault.....but we still don't know all the facts.....

    what color was the light facing E28? What color was the light facing E10? Was there an issue with one or both of the apparatus such as brakes? Did something happen to one or both of the drivers that made them impaired?

    I'm really surprised at a few of you guys....if this was your department, and all the facts, investigations, and conclusions weren't known...would you be that quick to throw your own guys under the bus?

    Bones:
    It appears as though it's Ok to "assume" there are other issues involved, but not Ok to "assume" a driver made an error.

    Interesting.
    I'm not "assuming" anything...some of you guys are to quick to pass judgment.....your statements/opinions make it sound like you know everything there is to know about what happened....and should crucify those involved. I never said the drivers were in no way responsible for what happened....just trying to get you guys to look at this from all possible angles.

    There are definitely lessons to be learned from this...and I'm sure new SOPs, training, and the like are coming for us.

    As info becomes known...and I'm able to pass it along I will.................
    Last edited by fieldseng2; 10-20-2008 at 01:30 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bones42 View Post
    It appears as though it's Ok to "assume" there are other issues involved, but not Ok to "assume" a driver made an error.

    Interesting.

    Yeah. thats whats happening here.

    Most of the posts that you seem to think were "assuming" other issues, were in response to these types of posts:

    Quote Originally Posted by ScareCrow57 View Post
    Looks like the guy pulling out from the left failed to use do regard.
    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    What I saw on the video:

    .......

    Hell even my current and lasst podunk FDs has/had a very clear intersection management policy for apparatus/apparatus right of way.

    I guess I'm not afraid to sugarcoat this bull**** and say right out that someone was wrong and someone needs to be suspended without pay or fired for voliating the law, or at the least, a likley department policy.
    Quote Originally Posted by ScareCrow57 View Post
    ....



    So let's see. There was a traffic signal. Both trucks blew the intersection. Then either both had a green light or someone failed to follow policy and law.

    The problem is the whole thing is senseless, could and should have been avoided just by following policy, and at least six (maybe 7) innocent victims were injured.
    You seriously see no fault in these posts? REALLY?
    Last edited by nyckftbl; 10-20-2008 at 01:49 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bones42 View Post
    It appears as though it's Ok to "assume" there are other issues involved, but not Ok to "assume" a driver made an error.

    Interesting.

    Go back and please read what I posted and show me where I made or endorsed any assumptions, I dare you to.

    There is nothing interesting about this entire thread, other than it is easy to find out where people stand on jumping to conclusions.
    It baffles me even more as to why people do not understand why some of us are getting ****ed about posts made by scarecrow, and those by Lafireeducater.

    We see a short snippet of video from a security camera, from a single viewpoint, with no interviews of drivers or crew, with no other pertinent FACTUAL information.
    Based on that one, small piece of evidence, people are somehow able to draw the "complete picture", and determine that at least one of the drivers should lose their job.
    All of this "speculation" started and took place while most of those injured were still in the hospital. Real good compassion, real good.


    If you would like to come back with the police report, and then talk about the police report contents, have at it.
    We're not at that point yet.

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    Here is video from the newscast last night. You can see what the 2 companies saw as they were approaching the intersection.....


    http://www.ksdk.com/news/local/story...157922&catid=3

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    Quote Originally Posted by jasper45 View Post
    We see a short snippet of video from a security camera, from a single viewpoint, with no interviews of drivers or crew, with no other pertinent FACTUAL information.
    with all due respect, we have been given the only unbiased view of what happened. it is the only FACT that I am aware of. it is a fact that this happened. as for why? that's an opinion. interviews with the drivers or crew? their opinion of what happened. who saw what? whose fault it was? that's all opinion.

    You saw on the video what happened. you can make your judgements as a witness of the accident (since you are seeing the accident exactly as it appeared on youtube).

    now, if there was an unusual occurrence (mechanical failure, driver suffered a medical emergency, etc), then I think everyone here, who said it was one of the driver's error, will gladly admit they were incorrect.

    But I'm betting one (or both) of the drivers made a mistake, and it resulted in him and 7 of his brothers going ot the hospital, as well as the destruction of a fire engine, and it was a preventable crash.

    and if I am wrong, and it was one of those unusual occurrences, then I will be the first to apologize for jumping to inaccurate conclusions.
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    Quote Originally Posted by DrParasite View Post
    with all due respect, we have been given the only unbiased view of what happened. it is the only FACT that I am aware of. it is a fact that this happened. as for why? that's an opinion. interviews with the drivers or crew? their opinion of what happened. who saw what? whose fault it was? that's all opinion.

    You saw on the video what happened. you can make your judgements as a witness of the accident (since you are seeing the accident exactly as it appeared on youtube).

    now, if there was an unusual occurrence (mechanical failure, driver suffered a medical emergency, etc), then I think everyone here, who said it was one of the driver's error, will gladly admit they were incorrect.

    But I'm betting one (or both) of the drivers made a mistake, and it resulted in him and 7 of his brothers going ot the hospital, as well as the destruction of a fire engine, and it was a preventable crash.

    and if I am wrong, and it was one of those unusual occurrences, then I will be the first to apologize for jumping to inaccurate conclusions.
    How about instead of jumping to ANY conclusions, we let this play out, instead of playing judge and jury on a public website. BMA.
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    Actually, if you read my posts, I have not offered any opinion on what happened.

    And there are plenty of "what ifs" being thrown all around.


    Me, I'm waiting for the details.
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    I just noticed the guy in the white shirt on the corner (the one furthest from the camera) appears to be pointing out to 122 that 10 is about to cross the intersection. I just don't understand the part where he casually walks away right after it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by nyckftbl View Post
    How about instead of jumping to ANY conclusions, we let this play out, instead of playing judge and jury on a public website. BMA.

    This needed to be posted again.



    Why is it that people are faster to punish a guy without an investigation, than they are to wish them well following an accident? I just don't get it, and it keeps happening every single time there is some kind of an incident.
    The first noose was tied on this thread after about five posts. Were the guys even to the hospital yet?

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    It's on CNN as well. At least the Chief is smart enough to use this as a training exercise. But the guy that speaks early on says it all. If this doesn't make you think when driving one of these trucks.....

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    A term that is being used way to often these days. To bad it is true.

    BMA

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    Quote Originally Posted by fieldseng2 View Post
    Here is video from the newscast last night. You can see what the 2 companies saw as they were approaching the intersection.....


    http://www.ksdk.com/news/local/story...157922&catid=3
    Glad to hear the brothers are going to be ok.!

    And as far as I'm concerned you're the ONLY one on here qualified to comment or speculate on this accident.
    The rest of you need to

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    So it sounds like 7 of the firefighters made it out with minor injuries and the 8th suffered a concussion. Good to hear nothing more serious happened. You can't really speculate what happened here. There are so many angles to take...just good to hear they all made it out ok. Glad the pedestrian on the bottom right had the smarts to get out of the way too.

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    Best wishes to the Brothers from St. Louis.
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