1. #1
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    Default STLFD Two Apparatus Crash 8 Firefighters Injured

    St Louis News agencies reporting two STLFD quints crashed enroute to a first alarm. Initial reports indicate 8 firefighter injuries. Keep these guys in your prayers, hopefully injuries are not serious

    http://www.myfoxstl.com/myfox/

    http://www.ksdk.com/news/local/story...157215&catid=3

    http://www.kmov.com/

    UPDATE: Report updated, no injuries appear life threatning. Great news.
    Last edited by todd3603; 10-10-2008 at 03:43 PM.

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    Great news no one is seriously injured.

    Hoping for a speeding recovery and no Monday morning quarterbacking.
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    Everyone is gonna be OK....

    can somebody tell me how to send a correction to firehouse.com?

    The actual companies involved were Engine 10 and Engine 28 (riding on reserve reserve engine 122...formerly E22)....As you know E28 is my company, and I know everyone of those guys involved.

    I'm on my 4 day and went to the accident site when I heard about it during a local traffic report on the radio. Pretty freaky when I saw the condition of the driver side jump seat area...which is normally where I ride. Even stranger, I was actually trying to call the guy who was riding that spot about the time this happened. Tried Calling my buddy on the H&L from our house..he didn't answer so I just figured they were at a fire....little did I know....

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    good to hear everyone is gonna be ok..hope they're back to work soon!!!

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    Amazing that they are doing ok. Thank God.

    Praying for them.

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    This Liveleak footage appears to show the collision from a security camera.

    http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=08b_1223763849

    Pretty nasty. Here's hoping for a speedy recovery.
    Never argue with an Idiot. They drag you down to their level, and then beat you with experience!

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    Looks like the guy pulling out from the left failed to use do regard.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ScareCrow57 View Post
    Looks like the guy pulling out from the left failed to use do regard.
    Wow!!! You've managed to complete the investigation based on 5 seconds of video footage that shows only one angle of the accident. Amazing.

    Here's to hoping the guys are OK and to a speedy recovery.

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    Quote Originally Posted by jlcooke3 View Post
    Wow!!! You've managed to complete the investigation based on 5 seconds of video footage that shows only one angle of the accident. Amazing.

    Here's to hoping the guys are OK and to a speedy recovery.
    Take it and learn from it. May there not be another one.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ScareCrow57 View Post
    Take it and learn from it. May there not be another one.
    I did. What I didn't do is rush to judgment.

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    how'd you tell that, I can't even see a stop sign or traffic light in the video.


    glad no one got seriously injured and hope they are all back to 100% soon

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    What I saw on the video:

    2 pieces of fire apparatus.

    An intersection, which in all likleyhood had a traffic control device in one direction.

    Apparatus 1 did not stop or slow down.

    Apparatus 2 did not stop or slow down.

    Conclusion based on the above observations:

    If there was a traffic control device for one of the drivers, which is likely, he/she failed to obey it and yield, by law to the other apparatus.

    In the unlikely even that there was not a traffic control device for one of the drivers, in all likleyhood a department the size of the SLFD has an intersection managing procedure dicating who stops and who goes through the intersection first. if that was the case, one of the driver's dodn't follow it.

    Hell even my current and lasst podunk FDs has/had a very clear intersection management policy for apparatus/apparatus right of way.

    I guess I'm not afraid to sugarcoat this bull**** and say right out that someone was wrong and someone needs to be suspended without pay or fired for voliating the law, or at the least, a likley department policy.

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    Awesome.

    The two gutless cowards weighed in.

    I'll tend to side with the Brother who's assigned to the companies.
    Co 11
    Virginia Beach FD

    Amateurs practice until they get it right; professionals practice until they cannot get it wrong. Which one are you?

    'The fire went out and nobody got hurt' is a poor excuse for a fireground critique.

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    Tell you what, I will side with the 6 or 7 fire fighters who got hurt because of poor driving by one or two drivers. St. Louis firetrucks collide rushing to blaze

    ...Buildings at the intersection, which has electric signals, make it difficult to see around the corners. Police said one truck was headed north on Taylor and the other east on King.

    Officials say it is always hard for the driver of an emergency vehicle at a blind corner to hear another's siren and air horns over the sound of his own.

    Jenkerson said the department policy is to drive cautiously. "We do not 'run' intersections," he said. "If there's a red light, we stop and look both ways and make sure you have a clear intersection to proceed through."
    So let's see. There was a traffic signal. Both trucks blew the intersection. Then either both had a green light or someone failed to follow policy and law.

    The problem is the whole thing is senseless, could and should have been avoided just by following policy, and at least six (maybe 7) innocent victims were injured.

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    So let's see. There was a traffic signal. Both trucks blew the intersection. Then either both had a green light or someone failed to follow policy and law.

    The problem is the whole thing is senseless, could and should have been avoided just by following policy, and at least six (maybe 7) innocent victims were injured.

    I know the crew and drivers of both companies....E28 and E10.....two of THE busiest companies in the city. These two outfits see more fire duty than any other in the city.

    the bell rings....." A report of a fire in a building........" Do you know how many times A DAY we (E28) and E10 hear that run come in? It's not like a once a year event for those guys....

    I guess you were standing right there when it happened...you watched the whole thing...... so you can say both drivers "blew" the intersection. I know both of those drivers. Neither one of them are reckless drivers...

    I can tell you that intersection SUCKS. It really is very hard to see around the corner to see whats coming unless you are in the middle of the intersection....I can remember one day I was driving....responding to a run....traveling east on MLK came to a COMPLETE stop....made sure it was clear....and we still almost got broadsided....I had to take evasive measures so we wouldn't get hit!

    But...I wasn't there when it happened....I only know what you read, and what others have told me....

    the fire was less than 1/2 a block away....But I cant imagine they were going Warp 5.

    I guess you interviewed the drivers too...so you know for a fact they disobeyed policy/law

    It's simply amazing.....someone from wherever you are has been able to compile all the facts, evidence, interviews before any of the investigators and staff here can. And we all know the press is always 100% accurate at reporting a story 100% of the time.......

    I think before you start pointing fingers at, and slamming people you don't even know..about a situation you really know nothing about...you may want to wait and see what conclusions the investigations bring.

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    Fieldseng2, glad your boys are ok and this didn't become a LODD headline. We all know how hard it is driving a rig and the responsibilities involved with that duty. Thanks for sharing what you know regarding the incident and not getting defensive with the Scabs on this site.
    -Rob
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    Quote Originally Posted by fieldseng2 View Post
    I know the crew and drivers of both companies....E28 and E10.....two of THE busiest companies in the city. These two outfits see more fire duty than any other in the city.

    the bell rings....." A report of a fire in a building........" Do you know how many times A DAY we (E28) and E10 hear that run come in? It's not like a once a year event for those guys....

    I guess you were standing right there when it happened...you watched the whole thing...... so you can say both drivers "blew" the intersection. I know both of those drivers. Neither one of them are reckless drivers...

    I can tell you that intersection SUCKS. It really is very hard to see around the corner to see whats coming unless you are in the middle of the intersection....I can remember one day I was driving....responding to a run....traveling east on MLK came to a COMPLETE stop....made sure it was clear....and we still almost got broadsided....I had to take evasive measures so we wouldn't get hit!

    But...I wasn't there when it happened....I only know what you read, and what others have told me....

    the fire was less than 1/2 a block away....But I cant imagine they were going Warp 5.

    I guess you interviewed the drivers too...so you know for a fact they disobeyed policy/law

    It's simply amazing.....someone from wherever you are has been able to compile all the facts, evidence, interviews before any of the investigators and staff here can. And we all know the press is always 100% accurate at reporting a story 100% of the time.......

    I think before you start pointing fingers at, and slamming people you don't even know..about a situation you really know nothing about...you may want to wait and see what conclusions the investigations bring.
    Both rigs were traveling pretty fast, had to be in order to flip one on its side. When I approach an intersection I slow and make sure everyone sees me, then I proceed. Never assume the other driver sees you.

    Thankfully, no one got hurt seriously. The taxpayer is out $1,000,000 worth of apparatus.

    Perhaps there was a reason one of the trucks didn't slow down (bad breaks??) But if they know the area and know the intersection is bad, they should be slowing down. It's better to be safe than sorry.

    I actually didn't say anything until there was visual evidence showing what happened. And like I said before, perhaps both had a green light at the same time.

    Take the incident and learn from it.

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    Both rigs were traveling pretty fast, had to be in order to flip one on its side. When I approach an intersection I slow and make sure everyone sees me, then I proceed. Never assume the other driver sees you.
    So you had a radar gun and know exactly how fast both rigs were going...and now you are an accident reconstruction expert. Just how fast does it take to hit a firetruck to get it to tip on its side? I can show you pics of an accident I was in when I was a teenager. It was a low speed (less than 25mph) accident. I had a Le Baron GTS. I was broadsided by a car of similar size. It looked like a H bomb hit it....totally destroyed.

    I'm glad to hear you practice safe driving procedures....again you weren't there...you don't know those guys, their skills, or driving practices......but you already have them condemned....you saw 5 seconds of video...you have no idea what the 28's were doing prior to entering the video.......

    Things none of us know.....did somebody's brakes malfunction?? we know that never happens, and is ALWAYS the drivers fault right!?! some other kind of apparatus issue maybe?? The 28's were on a reserve over 20 years old. We all know that....no matter how well they are taken care of....old trucks NEVER brake down...especially responding lights n sirens.

    What if one or both of the drivers was having some kind of emergency of his own and could not react?? I know NONE of us have ever responded to a MVA were the driver was having some kind of medical emergency like a seizure, MI, or blacked out for some reason. No one has ever had anything fly into their eye and briefly incapacitated them either...

    And like I said before, perhaps both had a green light at the same time.
    This maybe not all that impossible of a theory. All of our rigs have devices to change the lights at intersections. Maybe for some reason that system malfunctioned. But, just like CFD said in an interview...even if we have a green light...we proceed with caution.

    Take the incident and learn from it.
    I'll give you this one. But, instead of condemning the drivers as being negligent just by a few seconds of video where you really can't tell how fast they were going...you cant see if the brakes lights were on or not...and have no idea what the 28's were doing prior to entering the picture....why don't we wait until ALL THE FACTS are presented before we fire somebody!

    Hang on a sec...I gotta check on something.............yep......... how about that...what do ya know......the flag outside...it's still red, white, and blue....something about innocent until proven guilty...hmmm.....I guess not if you're a brother firefighter.....wait...we are a Brotherhood and are supposed to look out for each other???

    I don't know how much time you have in this business, where you are on the job at, or what kind of experience you have......and I'm not one to get in a "mines bigger than yours" contest.......I'm sure you are very good at your job, take it seriously and always try to do the right thing.....just like those guys....

    but just take a breath and step back a min. How much about this do you really know? A couple of news stories and a short video.

    I know that intersection like the back of my hand....as well as the whole terrain. I can pretty much tell you with the typical foot and vehicle traffic, stop signs, controlled intersections, and how both of those rigs handle.....not to mention the fire was at the very next intersection...those guys probably weren't going as fast as you think.....we constantly have people WALK out in front of us....cars pulling out in front of us even blowing intersections in front of us ...even with our lights n sirens.....there are just too many inherent hazards for those guys to be driving recklessly in that area.

    What I'm trying to get thru to to is before you crucify them find out all the facts.

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    Quote Originally Posted by fieldseng2 View Post
    I know the crew and drivers of both companies....E28 and E10.....two of THE busiest companies in the city. These two outfits see more fire duty than any other in the city.

    the bell rings....." A report of a fire in a building........" Do you know how many times A DAY we (E28) and E10 hear that run come in? It's not like a once a year event for those guys....


    hmmm....not this again

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    Fields, save your breath, brother. The two twinks who are slamming your guys make it a habit to hang guys with virtually no information available, certainly nothing official.
    They never take into account equipment malfunctions, or other intangibles that are very possible in an accident, such as this.

    The facts in a case like this have no bearing on their opinions, as they would much rather use a security camera video, and then use that very limited video to fire someone.
    These are guys that I do not want crawling down a hallway with me, not that they would ever ge into a burning building in the first place.


    Please, let us know how your guys are, as well as the guys from E10.

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    hmmm....not this again
    not what again?

    I am merely stating that is a run we often get more than once a shift. Other companies in the city (I'm not saying anything about any other department) might get that run once a month....or even less.

    Sometimes it turns out to be a fire in an occupied building, a fully involved abandoned building, or sometimes even outside rubbish on the porch.

    I remember being young in this business....back when I was a volley........when the dispatcher announced "fire in a building"...we all know what that feeling is like......the adrenaline racing......we felt like we had to go warp speed to get there no matter what....

    this was a common run for these guys...especially on that particular street. I'll bet I've been to a dozen fires on that street this year in that neighborhood. Most of them were vacant buildings w/an offensive stand. That's just my shift when I was working.

    I'm not saying they are complacent either.....they still act with a sense of urgency w/out being careless....

    Thanks Jasper...yeah I know....I'm just trying to be polite...it's one thing being my department.......however one of the companies involved is MY company....guys I see everyday at shift change.....If they can have their say and slam my Brothers....I'm certainly gonna stick up for them...

    All I'm saying to YOU "nameless"..."scarecrow"...and "educator"..........you don't know dink about what happened...hell...I don't even know all the details......before you crucify my Brothers.....you better have something substantial...

    Hell even my current and lasst podunk FDs has/had a very clear intersection management policy for apparatus/apparatus right of way.

    I guess I'm not afraid to sugarcoat this bull**** and say right out that someone was wrong and someone needs to be suspended without pay or fired for voliating the law, or at the least, a likley department policy.
    "podunk fire department"...I'm sure it's a great dept. I used to be a member of one of those.

    As far as an "apparatus management policy"....it was before my time, but I do believe we were one of the first big departments to implement an "On the Quiet" policy...accidents have been significantly reduced w/no loss of life or property to date implementing it.

    We have fairly strict safety guidelines, and VERY detailed SOPs over just about everything...including driving apparatus.

    And...

    FIVE times a day...."Fire Alarm" announces over the radio/house speakers...

    "Attention....Drivers of apparatus SHALL use caution when responding to ALL alarms.....members riding apparatus SHALL wear seat belts at all times..."

    We are a very safety oriented department....we are far from perfect...sometimes mistakes are made....maybe....indeed....we will find out that will be the case here....but a few seconds of video and news reports are hardly substantial and/or conclusive....

    I know you guys aren't dummies...and if this was your department...you wouldn't want anyone saying jack about the people you work with day in and day out with....

    so why don't we do something constructive with this thread...and discuss how lucky these guys are be be alive, safe, and able to go home to their families...lets share ideas, and each others departments training and policies regarding safe apparatus operation. Lets discuss how we can share these ideas with ALL of our Brothers/Sisters so things like this are a rare occurrence or better yet...not happen at all......

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    no offense bro, but the only reason you are taking such offense to this is because it was your department, and your company. Don't get me wrong, I would do the same if it was my department and my company, but if you took a step back and looked at it from the outside, outside your company, outside your department, and outside the fire service, you would see things differently.

    to start with, lets look at it from the PD's point of view. MOST accidents are preventable. hence the change in terminology form motor vehicle accidents to motor vehicle collisions to traffic collisions. accident implies it was no ones fault, and was not preventable, when in reality that is usually not the case. In general of course, not specific to this situation.

    Now, I (and everyone on here) are glad your brothers were not injured.

    but the truth is, whether you are from big city FD to podunk FD, that most crashesare preventable. And no one likes it when it's your department that gets plastered over the front page. and well know that what the rules have in writing and what actually happens on the road can often be quite different.

    We should strive to avoid those avoidable accidents. and if it was a vehicle failure, then management should be held responsible to ensure you are driving a safe vehicle. and if the driver suffered a medical emergency, then I hope he recovers.

    and if it wasn't driver error, I'm sure the ensuing investigation will exonerate all parties involved. Again, I'm glad to hear that all parties are doing well.

    BTW, if you don't have a different reaction when you are going first due to a worker, than when you go to an AFA or medical local, then you guys would be the first firefighters I know that have that reaction. Most do respond differently, at least in my experience (and that's knowing both paid and volunteer firefighters, as well as two hatters).
    Last edited by DrParasite; 10-13-2008 at 10:21 PM.
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    no offense bro, but the only reason you are taking such offense to this is because it was your department, and your company. Don't get me wrong, I would do the same if it was my department and my company, but if you took a step back and looked at it from the outside, outside your company, outside your department, and outside the fire service, you would see things differently.

    Yeah...I am....but if you read my posts.....I AM asking everyone to take a step back......you saw a brief video....read a news report or two....and everyone has it figured out.....come on guys...you're smarter than that....

    BTW, if you don't have a different reaction when you are going first due to a worker, than when you go to an AFA or medical local, then you guys would be the first firefighters I know that have that reaction.
    I didn't say that either. What I did say was we have a higher frequency of that type of call, and yes.....there is still a rush.....but typically a more controlled rush....Think of an emergency you get almost daily.....a real emergency.....you still get a rush....but don't lose your mind either.


    I'm not saying these guys are totally innocent victims.....it is possible mistakes were made...but NONE of us know that with the info presented to us.....

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    Well, to me it SEEMS/APPEARS that the truck coming from the left either had a green light OR didn't slow down enough to stop if required.

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    Fields, I'am right across the river and don't let these monday morning quaterbacks get to you. The department I previosely worked for had an ladder go on it's side this year while responding to a call. The public had a few calling for some type of discipline for the driver before a seperate PD had finished the investigation. When it came out it was the the drivers fault but just and accident. The driver was well below the speed limit and it was found that the weather and road ( not conditions, but the maint. that had been done on it) was the cause of the accident. Some people just like to through in their comments because they fell tough on here and no one else around them will listen to them.

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