1. #1

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    Default forced O/T DOD Navy GS series

    Hello, long time viewer, first time poster here.

    Looking for input please


    I work for the Navy as a civilian GS8 firefighter (14 years now) at a stateside Navy facility with about 60 firefighters manning two shifts (A and B) pulling the somewhat standard 72 hour work week.
    With budget cuts like they are and manning being like it is (not hiring for current vacancies) etc. ..
    We are currently have to force at least one man per shift to stay for OT if a sick call makes our manning fall below minimum.Sometimes this is a partial shift and sometimes the entire 24 (thus the ff then working 72 straight).

    Here is the need for your input please ..
    Understanding the nature of our jobs dictates a need for minimum manning, what system or rotation do you currently use to least impact the forced overtime shift.
    In other words .. is it always the junior guy at your department? Do you have a rotating list? etc.

    Our chief seems pretty flexible to entertaining ideas regarding a new SOP from our Union should we want to draft something, as long as he has his minimum numbers for the shift.
    Thanks in advance

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    Quote Originally Posted by fedfire33 View Post
    Hello, long time viewer, first time poster here.

    Looking for input please


    I work for the Navy as a civilian GS8 firefighter (14 years now) at a stateside Navy facility with about 60 firefighters manning two shifts (A and B) pulling the somewhat standard 72 hour work week.
    With budget cuts like they are and manning being like it is (not hiring for current vacancies) etc. ..
    We are currently have to force at least one man per shift to stay for OT if a sick call makes our manning fall below minimum.Sometimes this is a partial shift and sometimes the entire 24 (thus the ff then working 72 straight).

    Here is the need for your input please ..
    Understanding the nature of our jobs dictates a need for minimum manning, what system or rotation do you currently use to least impact the forced overtime shift.
    In other words .. is it always the junior guy at your department? Do you have a rotating list? etc.

    Our chief seems pretty flexible to entertaining ideas regarding a new SOP from our Union should we want to draft something, as long as he has his minimum numbers for the shift.
    Thanks in advance
    At Palnt 42 it is always the jumior guy who gets forced. However, you can not be forced to work more then 72 consecutive hours. Also, if you are taking vacation, you are exempt from the force list.

    At my previous job the junior guy got the force, but then you moved to the bottom of the list and everyone else bumps up one place. So it was a rotation thing.

    I am thinking San Diego is your location?

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    This happens quite a bit on the civilian side as well. We also will order in the most junior person for the rank needed. Before someone gets ordered in though everyone is called and offered the overtime first and if nobody takes it, then someone gets ordered in. We also work it where a person can work a rank above them if needed, so if an officer is needed and none take the OT, then an engineer can take it. If no engineer takes the OT, then the junior most officer gets forced.


    The other part you will love will be all the griping from taxpayers who don't understand and will see your salary as overpaid.
    The thoughts and opinions posted here are mine and mine alone and do not reflect the thoughts and or views of city or dept affiliation.

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    Junior guy gets forced all the time? Wow! When I was in the DoD, and a rookie, I had to eat a lot of schit sandwiches, but if I got forced every time there was a spot to be filled, I would never have seen my family!!!!!

    I worked for 3 different facilities, and all 3 used a rotating list of names, based on your last date "forced."

    If OT was needed, it was publicized as far as in advance as possible. Last place I worked was a big place, so every shift, 4 names were selected from the on-duty personnel (oldest date first) These were the "OT Candidates." Each member was polled "Yes or no." If numbers 1, 2, and 4 said NO and number 3 said YES, number 3 gets the first OT spot. Then 1, 2 and 4 in order.If everyone says NO, the number 1 gets forced. Depending on OT needs, you could be "on the list" for a while until you get forced.

    If you dont want the OT, but want to "get off the list", you could ask around for someone to cover you (the OT Pigs.) If you found someone, you say "Yes." They work for you, you covered your obligation to work, and go to the bottom of the list.

    We would also split the shift- you work 12 and get someone else to work 12. or 16 and 8, or however you want.

    If you read the tarot cards right, and knew your placement on the OT list, and knew you had something to do on a weekend or particular day, you would have to sick out- example: due to our physical location within close proximity to Dover Racetrack (no, wasnt at DAFB) and the number of hillbillies that worked in our house, if you had something to do on a NASCAR sunday, and worked the Saturday, you better bang out saturday, because all the rednecks are banging out sick on sunday to go watch the idiots drive in circles!!!!
    "Loyalty Above all Else. Except Honor."

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    I should add that the OT is always offered first to the volunteers and if no one takes it, then it becomes a force.

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    the first place i was at used a rotation list, earliest service comp date is first to be forced, then he will move to the top or bottom however you see it) but he would be dead last after he was forced.

    I like my current rotation, it goes whoever has the lowest OT hours gets forced. So if you don't want to be forced work a lil OT and find the middle or top of the OT hours list and you should have nothing to worry about.

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    thanks for the response.
    Clarification ..
    I work for Navy Midlant. We currently offer the available OT through a list sorted by / starting with the guy following who ever last took OT. Because OT is so rampant, we often find that they will offer it to everyone on shift with no one wanting it (you can only stand this place so much no matter how fat the paycheck). Once everyone turns it down, they start with the 'Force' list. That is a separate list. They start with the individual (firefighter up to Captain) who has not been forced the longest (oldest date). If that person is off duty (kelly day etc) they call their home (you were already called for the voluntary OT and said no so you know not to answer the phone). They then find the next person in house and the next thing you know they are working 72 straight.
    In alot of cases if you have a major committment, a brother will try and help you out with at least some of the shift.
    Anyway ..
    Thanks for the responses so far. Anyone else out there at a Navy civilian base run it any different?
    stay safe

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    I work for the Navy as a Civilian FF here in San Diego going on 29.5 years now. We have two OT lists, Voluntary and Mandatory. Voluntary works from high SCD down. Mandatory works from Low SCD up. Firefighters, Engineers and Capts (Leads) are on both lists. Here, Capts can work FF OT. Engineers can work all three lists (Capt, Engineer and FF) Firefighters can work FF and Engineer OT. You have to have a valid license to work as an Engineer on that rig (ARFF, Structure, Brush or Ambulance) and what is called an " H " card to work the BLS ambulance. Our Firefighter/Paramedics work the ALS ambulances only as a pair. Steny

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    Quote Originally Posted by arff42 View Post
    At Palnt 42 it is always the jumior guy who gets forced. However, you can not be forced to work more then 72 consecutive hours. Also, if you are taking vacation, you are exempt from the force list.

    At my previous job the junior guy got the force, but then you moved to the bottom of the list and everyone else bumps up one place. So it was a rotation thing.

    I am thinking San Diego is your location?

    Does any one know the exact rule or reg or law that states you can not work more than 72 hours. Here at Willow Grove NAS JRB we are working 72 plus hours straight. For example. today will be 96 hours for me.

    any help would surely help.

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    Quote Originally Posted by HoorahFF View Post
    Does any one know the exact rule or reg or law that states you can not work more than 72 hours. Here at Willow Grove NAS JRB we are working 72 plus hours straight. For example. today will be 96 hours for me.

    any help would surely help.
    No matter what anybody says, it is a fallacy as it does not apply to Fed FF's.


    As a reminder, the government makes and enforces rules & regulations to others, however, they usually don't apply if you are the government!!
    A Fire Chief has ONLY 1 JOB and that's to take care of his fireman. EVERYTHING else falls under this.

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    Quote Originally Posted by HoorahFF View Post
    Does any one know the exact rule or reg or law that states you can not work more than 72 hours. Here at Willow Grove NAS JRB we are working 72 plus hours straight. For example. today will be 96 hours for me.
    any help would surely help.
    Dude, just get out of that place... the only saving grace is running off base.
    I don't think there's really a law on # of straight hours worked for FFs... when I was there, guys worked and got forced so much to put them there for 7 straight... AND you weren't allowed to go off base for food anymore... F that

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    Quote Originally Posted by HoorahFF View Post
    Does any one know the exact rule or reg or law that states you can not work more than 72 hours. Here at Willow Grove NAS JRB we are working 72 plus hours straight. For example. today will be 96 hours for me.

    any help would surely help.
    Well, this probably isn't going to be received well, but here on San Clemente Island Fd off the coast of Calif. we work a 168 hr work week, otherwise known as a 7 & 7 schedule. 7 days on followed by 7 days off. When OT is offered, first up can work any combination of either 4 days up front or 3 days on the back side. Our rotation day is Thursdays. They dont fly to this island on weekends, so relief is done on weekdays. You can also work the entire 7 day OT if you want. A few have, but that means you are working 504 hours in a row without relief (3 weeks in other words).

    Our OT list works voluntary, highest SCD down and mandatory, lowest SCD up. Once you have worked, it is marked down and the next guy comes up. If called at home and you dont respond within 30 minutes, it counts as a refusal.

    It was stated earlier by someone else, "We are from the Government. We make the rules, we dont follow the rules". Unfortunately, that is true, at least it has been in my time, now going on 29.9 years. Finally, retirement with 30 years on the job is but 10 working days away (Jan 31st, 2009). Good luck with your forced OT shifts.

    BTW, that I am aware of, SCIFD here is the only federal Fire Department working a mandatory 168 hour work week in CONUS. Steny

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