1. #1
    MembersZone Subscriber

    Join Date
    Aug 2007
    Posts
    246

    Default Laddertrucks... a Hypothetical

    I turn to you guys for some input... for the time being, we'll just call this a hypothetical question.

    If you were to spec out and purchase a ladder truck - what/how would you do and why? Prefered brands/models and why? I know this is a broad set of questions... but I'm really looking for lots and lots of ideas and reasoning.

    The requirements are:

    100' or greater ladder
    1500GPM pump
    300 gallons or greater water
    3 crosslays (2- 1 3/4" & 1- 2")
    minimum of 800' 5" LDH
    6 man cab
    good sized generator
    keep it as short and manuverable as we can (tight areas)
    11'6" travel height maximum

    Let the games begin!
    FTM-PTB DTRT

    Everything I state on here is to support and aid my fellow firefighters. Everything I post is my opinion only, and in no way should be taken as an official opinion of any Company, Department, or Municipality I represent... oh and this includes Pierce Mfg, as so their legal department has advised me; since they apparently also invented the right to control "Free Speech".

  2. #2
    Forum Member
    DeputyChiefGonzo's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2000
    Location
    Somewhere between genius and insanity!
    Posts
    13,584

    Default Hypothetically speaking....

    Are you hypothetically looking for a mid mount or a rear mount?

    Do you really need a pump and water tank on it? The reason I ask is most FD's that have a ladder truck with a pump and water rarely use those features..

    The overall length can be shortened if you don't need a pump panel water tank or space for a hosebed and go to a rear mount. The overall ehight will be taller, though.
    ‎"The education of a firefighter and the continued education of a firefighter is what makes "real" firefighters. Continuous skill development is the core of progressive firefighting. We learn by doing and doing it again and again, both on the training ground and the fireground."
    Lt. Ray McCormack, FDNY

  3. #3
    MembersZone Subscriber

    Join Date
    Dec 2002
    Location
    Central NJ
    Posts
    1,214

    Default

    I am sorta wondering why....but anyway...my opinions follow.

    I've never spec'd a truck, but have operated with several of them over the years.

    What do you need it to do? Your 100' requirement essentially eliminates most midmounts and puts you into rearmount territory. ALF does make 100' midmount aerials.

    Is this going to be a ladder or tower?

    If its a ladder, specing one that has a monitor capable of operating above the axis of the aerial (see thread on new aerial monitors) for increased versatility.

    If its a tower, manually controlled tiller bar type monitor (Aerialscope style).

    An angled bucket sounds appealing after learning about their advantages.

    If its an aerial, skip all the lights, bells and gadgets on the tip, leave it clear so you can actually get it up next to things. Maybe one of those cheap 12v unity flood lights for some work light.

    What about a quad, drop the aerial and carry a ton of portable ladders. Fair Haven NJ just got a pierce quad. There is another one floating around somewhere I just recently saw but its escaping me.

  4. #4
    Forum Member

    Join Date
    Jun 2008
    Location
    Colorado
    Posts
    84

    Default

    The guys that I know say that they can get more done with a ladder opposed to a tower. I kind of lean towards the towers. I know that ALF has a 110' rear mt. that flows 1500 GPM at the tip and holds up to 500 gals. I also know that Rosenbauer has 109' RM with 1250 at the tip and 300 gals. The closest departments with ladders here all have Pierce or Rosenbauer/Central.

  5. #5
    Forum Member

    Join Date
    Jul 2001
    Posts
    145

    Default

    Smeal makes a 100ft. mid-mount.

    Don

  6. #6
    Forum Member
    Bones42's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2001
    Location
    Pt. Beach, NJ
    Posts
    10,689

    Default

    C'mon, you are from NJ. Call a manufacturer, tell them you want a ladder. They will write the specs for you and you send it out to bid.
    "This thread is being closed as it is off-topic and not related to the fire industry." - Isn't that what the Off Duty forum was for?

  7. #7
    Forum Member
    jlcooke3's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2005
    Location
    Aiken, SC
    Posts
    438

    Default

    Some other important considerations would be; how much compartment space is needed, how many ground ladders and what type, overall length requirements, and is it to be used as a ladder that can act as an engine when needed or is it an engine that can be a ladder when needed? Also ladder or platform?

  8. #8
    MembersZone Subscriber

    Join Date
    Aug 2007
    Posts
    246

    Default

    Heres the deal...

    95% of my experiance is with Ladder Trucks. I'm looking for other thoughts.

    There is a 50/50 chance that we could be entering the Truck business soon - all depends an how November falls. This is nothing anywhere near official. With our buildings and setbacks - has to be at least 100'. Because of daytime staffing - we want a pump and tank to run as an engine if we out running back to back calls. It will be a TRUCK 1st and Engine on rare occasions. This will even have a combi-tool just in case. We're busy, and during the day we're normally running one 4-5 guy fire crew.

    Mid-Mount versus Rear Mount - I like both, and both would work - I'm looking for other thought processes to make me sway one way or the other.

    Ground Ladders - at least 1 35', 2 24', 2 16' and a Little Giant

    Compartments - the most we can get.

    I'm not really looking for specfic rigs - more so to see how you guys would do it and which ways you would go and why.

    IE: Midmount Smeal for these reasons or Rear mount Tower for these reasons... and so on

    Kinda like an open debate
    FTM-PTB DTRT

    Everything I state on here is to support and aid my fellow firefighters. Everything I post is my opinion only, and in no way should be taken as an official opinion of any Company, Department, or Municipality I represent... oh and this includes Pierce Mfg, as so their legal department has advised me; since they apparently also invented the right to control "Free Speech".

  9. #9
    Forum Member
    DeputyChiefGonzo's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2000
    Location
    Somewhere between genius and insanity!
    Posts
    13,584

    Default

    We are fine tuning our specs for a new 100 foot rear mount tower, no pump or tank. We have a lot of apartment and condo complexes with lightweight wood construction, and the tower will give us a safer platform to work from

    This will be replacing a 25 year old rear mount aerial. We have a 100 rear mount aerial presently in service. Before that, we had a 1976 Mack CF 600 aerial with a 100 foot Maxim stick that was mid mounted.

    Our specs wil be going out for bids during the week of October 20th.
    ‎"The education of a firefighter and the continued education of a firefighter is what makes "real" firefighters. Continuous skill development is the core of progressive firefighting. We learn by doing and doing it again and again, both on the training ground and the fireground."
    Lt. Ray McCormack, FDNY

  10. #10
    Forum Member

    Join Date
    Oct 2006
    Posts
    31

    Default

    TDA quint...

  11. #11
    Forum Member

    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Posts
    601

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by laddertruckgoes View Post
    Heres the deal...

    95% of my experiance is with Ladder Trucks. I'm looking for other thoughts.

    There is a 50/50 chance that we could be entering the Truck business soon - all depends an how November falls. This is nothing anywhere near official. With our buildings and setbacks - has to be at least 100'. Because of daytime staffing - we want a pump and tank to run as an engine if we out running back to back calls. It will be a TRUCK 1st and Engine on rare occasions. This will even have a combi-tool just in case. We're busy, and during the day we're normally running one 4-5 guy fire crew.

    Mid-Mount versus Rear Mount - I like both, and both would work - I'm looking for other thought processes to make me sway one way or the other.

    Ground Ladders - at least 1 35', 2 24', 2 16' and a Little Giant

    Compartments - the most we can get.

    I'm not really looking for specfic rigs - more so to see how you guys would do it and which ways you would go and why.

    IE: Midmount Smeal for these reasons or Rear mount Tower for these reasons... and so on

    Kinda like an open debate
    To carry your ladders and get maximum compartmentation you might want to lean towards the rear mount ladder. When the aerial is installed high enough to clear the top of the cab it results in much more compartment space. Normally ladders that are mid mounted are installed low to decrease height and that results in much less space in the body. There should be plenty of room in the torque box for your desired ground ladders but make sure you let the builders know your expectations. Also, you may want a little extra space for more ladders in the future.

    If the unit will seldom be used as a pumper, you may want to have a roll-up door installed over the pump panel. It will keep the gauges and such out of the elements and clean. The door won't be in the way since it would rarely be used. Also, it will look like a truck and the purists won't snicker at you if they don't see a pump panel.

  12. #12
    Forum Member
    Rescue101's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2001
    Location
    Bridgton,Me USA
    Posts
    8,162

    Default

    3610,Why do you say no 100' MM? Our PRESENT ladder is a 100' MM and it's FORTY years old. Our New one coming is a Smeal and also a 100' MM.The nice thing about a 100' Smeal MM is you have 99' reach HORIZONTAL.I've posted our specs here on a previous post,I'll try to provide you with a link. T. C.
    Last edited by Rescue101; 10-16-2008 at 09:08 AM.

  13. #13
    Forum Member

    Join Date
    May 2006
    Location
    Bryn Athyn, Pa.
    Posts
    1,619

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by MG3610 View Post
    What about a quad, drop the aerial and carry a ton of portable ladders. Fair Haven NJ just got a pierce quad. There is another one floating around somewhere I just recently saw but its escaping me.
    I remember seeing a quad being built at Hahn during the late '60s. Memory's getting fuzzy, but I think it was for Beach Haven, N.J. If so, does anyone know what replaced it? Might it have been another quad?

    Stay safe out there, everyone goes home!

  14. #14
    Forum Member
    Bones42's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2001
    Location
    Pt. Beach, NJ
    Posts
    10,689

    Default

    With our buildings and setbacks - has to be at least 100'. Because of daytime staffing - we want a pump and tank to run as an engine if we out running back to back calls. It will be a TRUCK 1st and Engine on rare occasions. This will even have a combi-tool just in case.
    Sounds like us.

    We went with a rear mount for the added compartment space. The ability to back in to a scene and get the full 100' reach was another factor, you lose a little bit with a mid mount. The midmount demo we had did not have the maneuverability the rear mount had, with the large rear end swing.
    "This thread is being closed as it is off-topic and not related to the fire industry." - Isn't that what the Off Duty forum was for?

  15. #15
    Forum Member
    Rescue101's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2001
    Location
    Bridgton,Me USA
    Posts
    8,162

    Default

    LTG,Couldn't figure out how to link it but try "Our Smeal platform" on a search in AI(this forum) that I posted on 7-31-08.It has the drawing and ladder complement listed. T.C.

  16. #16
    Forum Member

    Join Date
    Jun 2008
    Posts
    69

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by laddertruckgoes View Post
    I'm not really looking for specfic rigs - more so to see how you guys would do it and which ways you would go and why.
    If I have not misinterpreted what you are looking for...

    We started by answering the following questions:
    - Pump or no pump, Tank or no tank.
    - Length and placement of the aerial
    - Number + length of ground ladders (ISO & NFPA)
    - Maximum outrigger spread allowable

    Then we invited in all of the vendors to try and shape the rest of the spec, power train, crew cab, compartments. We attempted to keep as many vendors in play, but a few were dropped due to us settling on a mid-mount 100' tower.

    Brian

  17. #17
    MembersZone Subscriber

    Join Date
    Aug 2007
    Posts
    246

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Bones42 View Post
    Sounds like us.

    We went with a rear mount for the added compartment space. The ability to back in to a scene and get the full 100' reach was another factor, you lose a little bit with a mid mount. The midmount demo we had did not have the maneuverability the rear mount had, with the large rear end swing.
    That's something we were considering as well. The FFA 107' rearmounts look real good - but we're currently a KME house so we're going that route too.

    Keeping it short and low is what we need. We have a very heavy congestion issue with traffic (Exit 5 NJTP, Exit 45 RT295, RT541, RT38, RT206) plus very tight streets in some parts (Mount Holly, Rancocas Village, Willingboro). Personally, I'm looking at straight sticks because of overhead clearance with trees and wires. However, a Tower would benefit because of our influx of large commercial and industrials as well as McMansions popping up and a ton of new construction as well.

    We have seriously considered a TDA Quint like Gladwynne PA, however it's probably more money then we'll see and fielding 2 drivers could sometimes be an issue.

    Simply put - we're an open book and are leaving no stone unturned. This is why I came to you all looking for any kind of insight and pointers you can offer.
    FTM-PTB DTRT

    Everything I state on here is to support and aid my fellow firefighters. Everything I post is my opinion only, and in no way should be taken as an official opinion of any Company, Department, or Municipality I represent... oh and this includes Pierce Mfg, as so their legal department has advised me; since they apparently also invented the right to control "Free Speech".

  18. #18
    Forum Member

    Join Date
    Oct 2006
    Posts
    31

  19. #19
    MembersZone Subscriber

    Join Date
    Sep 2005
    Location
    So of Can. / N. of Mexico
    Posts
    869

    Wink Rear Mount 100' Ladder Truck

    Or like this similar one by E-One
    Attached Images Attached Images  

  20. #20
    Forum Member

    Join Date
    Apr 2004
    Location
    Bossier Parrish, Louisiana
    Posts
    10,611

    Default

    For my money you can't beat a Stuphen tower.

  21. #21
    MembersZone Subscriber

    Join Date
    Dec 2002
    Location
    Central NJ
    Posts
    1,214

    Default

    I was saying that there arent many midmount aerials on the market these days that are 100'. The towers I know of are usually 93 or 95'. Sutphen makes a 100 MM, but not sure of others. Now, I spoke out of line a bit becsuse you dont seem many mid mount AERIALS these days, but apparently there are a few Mfr's making them. I was thinking towers, not aerials.

    I was speaking of todays availibility, not the rigs of yesteryear. Sorry for my misrepresentation.

  22. #22
    Forum Member

    Join Date
    Apr 2006
    Posts
    492

    Default MM Aerials

    So far as I can tell Pierce (5 section), E-One, KME (four or five section), Sutphen, ALF (4 Section), Rosenbauer (5 section), and Smeal/Ferrara all build 100' midmount aerials. E-One has not advertised their's in the past, but the neighboring town has one. I am not sure if the Rosenbauer aerial line is still built by RK Aerials, which would mean that the aerial might be for sale to other builders that do not do in house ladder engineering (Toyne and Alexis come to mind).

  23. #23
    Forum Member

    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Monroeville, PA USA
    Posts
    327

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by laddertruckgoes View Post
    I turn to you guys for some input... for the time being, we'll just call this a hypothetical question.

    If you were to spec out and purchase a ladder truck - what/how would you do and why? Prefered brands/models and why? I know this is a broad set of questions... but I'm really looking for lots and lots of ideas and reasoning.

    The requirements are:

    100' or greater ladder
    1500GPM pump
    300 gallons or greater water
    3 crosslays (2- 1 3/4" & 1- 2")
    minimum of 800' 5" LDH
    6 man cab
    good sized generator
    keep it as short and manuverable as we can (tight areas)
    11'6" travel height maximum

    Let the games begin!
    FIRST I'd scratch the pump, hose and water.... real trucks do have pumps and thats why we have the wagons
    Based on the ladder, I'd go E-One. Never a failure, and more room on the ladder itself, plus some thermal properties and what not of aluminum ladders
    15 kw hyd. - Harrison
    11' 6 is do-able
    Manuverability... Make it bend in the middle
    It takes a little intelligence to enjoy humor,satire & wit, but none to be offended by it.

    It take more than a new Leather Helmet to make you a good officer

  24. #24
    MembersZone Subscriber

    Join Date
    Dec 2002
    Location
    Central NJ
    Posts
    1,214

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by skipatrol8 View Post
    So far as I can tell Pierce (5 section), E-One, KME (four or five section), Sutphen, ALF (4 Section), Rosenbauer (5 section), and Smeal/Ferrara all build 100' midmount aerials. E-One has not advertised their's in the past, but the neighboring town has one. I am not sure if the Rosenbauer aerial line is still built by RK Aerials, which would mean that the aerial might be for sale to other builders that do not do in house ladder engineering (Toyne and Alexis come to mind).
    Whats interesting is how few are actually on the streets. It seems like 100' MM's were almost the standard back in the 40's through 80's (maybe my years arent spot on, but its a guess). Most MM's now a days are towers. I wonder why?

  25. #25
    Forum Member

    Join Date
    Nov 2005
    Location
    British Columbia
    Posts
    450

    Default

    Toronto still has MM aerial ladders AND RM aerial ladders and RM platforms and even Brontos.

Thread Information

Users Browsing this Thread

There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)

Similar Threads

  1. Hypothetical question:
    By FiremedicSpud in forum The Off Duty Forums
    Replies: 20
    Last Post: 03-27-2007, 06:29 PM
  2. Hypothetical Help Please...
    By Captnnc in forum Firefighters Forum
    Replies: 3
    Last Post: 08-27-2004, 01:08 PM
  3. Hypothetical: Firefighter freaks out, trys to leave house fire
    By Jedimike007 in forum Firefighters Forum
    Replies: 23
    Last Post: 11-07-2002, 11:03 PM
  4. Hypothetical Situation
    By Hot6815 in forum Fire Explorer & Jr. Firefighting
    Replies: 19
    Last Post: 04-10-2002, 02:27 AM

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts

Log in

Click here to log in or register