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    Default That is truly classy GeorgeWendtCFI

    "Of course she would probably recognize that there are anti-Americans, like you, living in those locales."

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    It is totally unnecesary to bring this into a new thread all on its own.

    Post reported. And I don't do THAT very often.
    September 11th - Never Forget

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    Time for change's Journal
    About the Republican Accusation that Liberals Hate America
    Posted by Time for change in General Discussion (01/01/06 through 01/22/2007)
    Sat May 27th 2006, 04:18 PM
    Liberals are the staunchest defenders of America as defined by our founding documents and as defined by the American people. What they hate is the bizarre and inhumane concept of America that is put forward by today’s Republican Party.
    "Even Islamic terrorists don't hate America like liberals do. They don't have the energy”. – Ann Coulter

    It infuriates me to hear hypocritical Republicans spout off about how “liberals hate America”. In the first place, it’s a meaningless and stupid thing to say, because the phrase “hate America” (or “love America”) can mean so many different things. But saying that “liberals hate America” makes a damn good sound bite, and there are many voters who are swayed by that phrase, under the principle that if you hear something said enough times it must be true. And anyhow, what else do Republicans have to talk about?

    The fact of the matter is that, according to some definitions of “America” liberals do in fact hate America, and Republicans love America. But according to other definitions of “America”, liberals love America and conservatives hate it.

    It is imperative that we make that distinction because otherwise liberals are usually seen to be on the losing side of the argument, since our corporate media acts as a megaphone for Republicans to spread the “liberals hate America” cliché. But if we can successfully make the distinction as to which “America” WE love and hate, and which “America” THEY love and hate, then we will have destroyed a politically powerful talking point for the Republicans – one of the few that they have left.


    Why I present this issue as Republicans vs. liberals

    It may seem odd that I talk about this in terms of Republicans vs. liberals, rather than conservatives vs. liberals or Republicans vs. Democrats.

    By Republicans I mean today’s Republicans – our current presidential administration and all their supporters and enablers in Congress, our judiciary, and in the general population. There are many conservatives who do not support our current administration, and I do not intend this essay to apply to them (although it may in fact apply to some or many of them).

    And I speak of “liberals” rather than of Democrats because not all Democrats subscribe to the liberal principles that I discuss here. And furthermore, the Republican “hate America” accusation is generally directed at liberals, rather than Democrats as a whole. They realize that there are so many Americans that consider themselves Democrats that they would sound too strident if they directed their attack against all Democrats, so they have decided to pursue a “divide and conquer” strategy instead. By demonizing liberals and at the same time claiming that liberals have taken over the Democratic Party, the Republicans hope to peal away some Democratic votes.


    The “America” that is loved by liberals and hated by Republicans

    I can think of at least four different definitions that people use to define the America that they love or hate. Two of them are loved by liberals and hated by Republicans, and the other two are loved by Republicans and hated by liberals. I’ll start here by talking about the America that is loved by liberals.


    America as defined by its founding documents – The Declaration of Independence and its Constitution

    The first founding document of America, its Declaration of Independence, expresses the ideals which were meant to provide the rationale for its very existence and general guidance for the establishment of its government and all future actions. There are two basic principles of this document that are crucial to the point I am trying to make. The first is this:


    We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness. — That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed.

    What we should take away from this great statement is that ALL men (and by implication, women and children too) should have the opportunity for a decent life – AND that it is the purpose of government to ensure that they have that opportunity.

    And it is also very important to point out that the AMERICAN Declaration of Independence does not distinguish, in its human rights declarations, between American citizens and other people. ALL people have these rights. And by the way, Jesus expressed a very similar sentiment when he said "Whatever you neglected to do unto one of these least of these, you neglected to do unto Me"

    Liberals fervently believe in this.

    That is why liberals eventually abolished slavery in our country.

    That is why liberals passed laws that limited the power of corporations to control the lives of ordinary citizens of our country.

    That is why liberals passed the Social Security laws and worker compensation laws – to ensure some degree of financial security for the citizens of our country.

    That is why liberals even believe in a social safety net (which today’s Republicans call Communism) – to ensure that the least fortunate of our citizens have some opportunity for a decent life.

    That is why liberals passed Medicare, to ensure that our older citizens have some access to adequate health care, and why liberals have tried to pass a national health insurance plan – to extend that access to all citizens of our country.

    That is why liberals favor raising the minimum wage in our country – so that the working men and women of our country don’t have to live in poverty.

    That is why liberals favor adequate funding of public education – so that children will have the opportunity to make a decent life for themselves.

    That is why liberals believe that war should be used as a national policy ONLY as a last resort, after other measures have failed – so that the lives of millions are not destroyed for the profits of the few.

    That is why liberals believe that we need laws to preserve our environment, which is necessary for a continuing decent life for all people of the world – so that future generations will continue to reap its life preserving and enhancing benefits.

    And that is why liberals reject the idea that that private companies have the right to count our votes with secret “proprietary” software] programs that don’t provide assurance that our votes are actually counted – so that ALL people can be assured of the opportunity to participate in our Democracy.


    The other basic principle in our Declaration of Independence that I wish to emphasize is this:


    That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government…

    I emphasize this because Republicans often use as a rationale for their claim that “liberals hate America” the criticisms that liberals direct against their government. Well, as the above excerpt from our Declaration makes clear, there is nothing more American than criticizing our government when one believes that our government is being destructive of the ends for which it was created.

    Liberals take the Declaration of Independence very seriously, and that is why they criticize our government when they believe that criticism is warranted – NOT because they “hate America”.


    The purpose of our Constitution was to provide a legal framework for the enactment of laws that would eventually make the ideals expressed in our Declaration of Independence a reality. The first ten amendments to our Constitution, the Bill of Rights, were created in order to ensure basic liberties for our citizens. Liberals fervently believe in our Constitution as a means of protecting our Democracy, and that is why they get upset when they observe attempts to undermine our Constitution.


    America as defined by its people

    Another way of thinking about one’s feelings about America is in reference to its people. Of course there are so many millions of people in America that it is difficult to think about this in the abstract. Liberals, like most other people, love some people and dislike or hate others.

    But if I had to describe what it means to love people as an abstract principle, I would go right back to the Declaration of Independence. Loving America as defined by its people is very similar or identical to a fervent belief in our Declaration of Independence, since that Declaration expresses the ideal that ALL people have the RIGHT to an opportunity for a decent life.


    The America that is hated by liberals and loved by Republicans

    America as defined by its current government

    Unfortunately, since the Bush administration came to power in 2001, they and their Republican supporters, by their actions, have shown nothing but contempt for our Declaration of Independence, our Constitution, the people of the United States, and all the people of the world. Liberals do indeed hate this, just as Republicans, as shown by their support for these actions, obviously don’t have a problem with it:

    By George W. Bush’s use of hundreds of signing statements to state his intention NOT to follow the laws passed by Congress, he has expressed his contempt for Democracy in general.

    By our administration’s unprecedented use of “first amendment zones” to limit the right of protesters against our government to be heard, it has expressed contempt for our First Amendment’s guarantee of free speech. Free speech is a useful guarantee of liberty ONLY IF it can be heard. The right to protest against tyrannical government was THE main rationale for our First Amendment.

    By our administration’s declaration that it is illegal for news reporters to report on government actions if our government unilaterally declares those actions to be secret and of national security interest, our administration again has expressed its contempt for our First Amendment’s guarantee of free speech.

    By our administration’s program for warantless spying on American citizens, it has expressed its contempt for our Fourth Amendment’s guarantee of freedom from unreasonable searches and seizures.

    By our administration’s holding of prisoners “suspected of terrorism” indefinitely and without the bringing of charges or giving them the right to defend themselves, it has expressed its contempt for our Fifth Amendment’s guarantee of the right to face one’s accusers and to defend one’s self against government accusations. By its abuse and torture of many of those prisoners it has expressed its contempt for international law.

    By our administration’s preemptive war against a country that posed no threat to us, and their lies to the American people that were designed to make that war politically feasible, they expressed contempt for the American people.

    By our administration’s failure to even attempt to take timely action to rescue victims of Hurricane Katrina, it expressed its contempt for people who lack the resources to protect themselves against such natural disasters.

    By our administration’s eagerness to side with corporations and wealthy and powerful individuals against other citizens of our country on every single issue, it has expressed contempt for the good majority of people of our country, as well as the principles in our Declaration of Independence. These issues include massive tax breaks for the wealthy, the removal of environmental regulations on the actions of corporations, the attempted destruction of the Social Security Administration, opposition to an increase in the minimum wage to close to the poverty level, the failure to adequately fund our public schools, and many many more.

    Lastly, Republicans for decades have expressed so much contempt for the American Civil Liberty Union that they actually use it as a term of abuse. The purpose of the American Civil Liberty Union can be summed up as follows:


    The American system of government is founded on two counterbalancing principles: that the majority of the people governs, through democratically elected representatives; and that the power even of a democratic majority must be limited, to ensure individual rights.

    Majority power is limited by the Constitution's Bill of Rights, which consists of the original ten amendments ratified in 1791, plus the three post-Civil War amendments (the 13th, 14th and 15th) and the 19th Amendment (women's suffrage), adopted in 1920.

    The mission of the ACLU is to preserve all of these protections and guarantees:

    In other words, the purpose of the ACLU is to protect the American system of government, as defined by our Constitution. Republicans make no secret of their hatred of the ACLU.


    America as defined by “American exceptionalism”

    “American exceptionalism” is the term that is used by today’s Republicans to refer to their belief that America never does anything wrong (well, ok, they only use this doctrine when Republicans are in power), and therefore criticizing our government indicates at best hatred for “America” and at worst treason. I don’t know how else to explain this bizarre concept. I don’t even know if most Republicans would say that I am mischaracterizing them in the way I attribute this belief to them, or if they would proudly admit to it. Either way, I don’t see how they can deny it.

    This belief is evident in the way that Republican claims that “liberals hate America” are almost always linked to another phrase that they attribute to liberals – “the blame America first crowd”. To these Neanderthals, criticism of an American (Republican) government provides all the grounds they need for their claim that “liberals hate America”.
    The concept was expressed perfectly by Republican talk show host Hugh Hewitt, when he referred to Democrats as “a party of bitter hostility to the idea of American exceptionalism”. This statement was directly tied to his scathing criticism of Senator Richard Durbin for daring to complain about the torture of American prisoners of war on the floor of the U.S. Senate. In his scathing criticism of Durbin, Hewitt never once denied Durbin’s charges. There was no need to deny the charges to the kind of people to whom Hewitt’s tirade was addressed. His point was simply that America should be allowed to do whatever it wants to do, and criticism of American actions, no matter what they are, constitute “hatred of America”.


    Conclusion

    Liberals are the staunchest defenders of America as defined by our founding documents and as defined by the American people. What they hate is the bizarre and inhumane concept of America that is put forward by today’s Republican Party. When liberals criticize that version of America, and are consequently accused by Republicans of “hating America”, they should be very assertive about making the distinction. Few Americans approve of today’s Republican agenda once they understand what it is.

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    Cool

    That sounds like a social liberal...as opposed to the classic liberal. I remember a professor many years ago telling me all the many schools of thoughts of liberalism and conservatism.

    You cannot label the Democrats or Republicans as liberal or conservative, any more than you can say any one party is conservative or liberal.

    I am a registered Republican but consider myself a classic liberal, if that makes any sense.

    Just a thought....

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    Can't we just ALL Hate America and get on with it?!

    Never argue with an Idiot. They drag you down to their level, and then beat you with experience!

    IACOJ

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    Quote Originally Posted by mcaldwell View Post
    Can't we just ALL Hate America and get on with it?!

    Ack, now you've gone and done it!
    September 11th - Never Forget

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    Post Well..............

    I think it's long past time for a Third Political Party. Problem is that the Parties other than Democrat or Republican That have appeared so far are either focused on a Single Subject, or they're operated by Weirdos, or both, and with that they will never attract much support. There is a need for what I would call the American Party, which would be centered on building a better America by supporting things like 1. An End to shipping jobs overseas, 2. an end to free immigration 3. Stronger controls over the Financial World 4. Ban Hostile Takeovers of Businesses by others 5. Remove "Political Correctness" from Government 5. Require People to be accountable for their own action or inaction. There's more, but you get the idea.
    Never use Force! Get a Bigger Hammer.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Geinandputitout View Post
    This belief is evident in the way that Republican claims that “liberals hate America” are almost always linked to another phrase that they attribute to liberals – “the blame America first crowd”. To these Neanderthals, criticism of an American (Republican) government provides all the grounds they need for their claim that “liberals hate America”.
    How to talk Republican.
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    Still don't understand why anyone worries about a friggin party name. Vote and support the person you think will do the best job. Screw the party crap.


    You guys spend more time worrying about "the other party" than the people themselves.
    "This thread is being closed as it is off-topic and not related to the fire industry." - Isn't that what the Off Duty forum was for?

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    Quote Originally Posted by scfire86 View Post
    The American people will never knowingly adopt Socialism. But under the name of 'liberalism' they will adopt every fragment of the Socialist program, until one day America will be a Socialist nation, without knowing how it happened. --Norman Mattoon Thomas, 6 time presidential candidate for the Socialist Party of America

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    That was probably the most inaccurate bit of commentary I've read in a long time.

    Here, this is better:

    Why (Some) Liberals Hate America Other articles by this author

    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------



    Why (Some) Liberals Hate America
    Nancy Morgan
    RightBias.com
    April 27, 2007

    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    Ann Coulter calls it treason, Tammy Bruce calls it 'malignant narcissism' and liberals call it patriotism. Call it what you will, but there is no denying the fact that hating America has replaced race as the all determining reality for many Americans.

    What would have been considered treason 40 years ago is now accepted as cutting edge commentary. Democrats appear to be rooting for defeat in Iraq as a way to defeat George Bush. Pundits routinely give terrorists the benefit of the doubt while excoriating America. Hollywood stars denounce their homeland on foreign soil. Academics impute a moral equivalence between terrorists and U.S. soldiers and calling the President of the United States a liar is now a sure way to cement ones bona fide's in the growing secular progressive community. And on and on it goes.

    One puzzling fact stands out. Many of these well educated, passionate critics of America believe in their hearts that they are patriotic. The logical disconnect between 'supporting the troops' while undermining them doesn't compute. Claiming the label of patriot while actively undermining their own country doesn't strike them as conflicting...

    How to make sense of this disconnect?

    Shelby Steele, in his 2006 book, 'White Guilt', made the case that every generation coming of age goes through a period of adolescent rebellion. Challenging the powers that be is an important rite of passage and a valuable life lesson. Unfortunately, the '60's baby boomer' generation that is currently in charge of most of our institutions, staged their adolescent rebellion at the one time in history they had a chance of winning the battle against the 'establishment.'

    In the 60's, America had just acknowledged and apologized for the sin of slavery. As Steele explains, "After America admitted to what was worst about itself, there was not enough authority left to support what was best." As a result, the baby boom generation is the first generation to win this adolescent rebellion against its elders. Their "rite of passage to maturity was cut short and they were falsely inflated instead of humbled." Sound familiar?

    Couple America's loss of moral authority with the escalation of the Vietnam War and voila, you have broadbased confirmation of America's inherent evil and oppressiveness. This is the worldview that has now become reality to most Liberals, and through them, to much of the rest of the world. Thank-you, baby boomers.

    Having toppled the 'establishment,' liberals set out to restore America's moral authority. To impose, unchallenged, their vision of what America could and should be, unhampered by tradition, lessons of the past or any sense of humility. In short, liberals set out to redefine reality, with a focus on 'social justice'.

    Only one problem. Instead of establishing an earthly utopia, every solution they imposed on America has failed. From the war on poverty to 'whole language' to abolishing war to establishing equality of outcome to affirmative action. All the theories that looked so fine on paper just didn't seem to work in the real world. Their Rousseauian strategy of emphasis on passion instead of reason just didn't cut the mustard. No wonder they're so angry.

    Whitaker Chambers once said that the most important choice a man would ever make would be the choice between man and God.

    Having chosen man over God, liberals, secular progressives if you will, naturally believe that any catastrophe, like Katrina, global warming, racism, etc., is man's fault. Based on trendy liberal reasoning, only those with power can oppress. Thus the blame for all the world's ills is placed right at the feet of America, the world's only super power. It's all our fault. Looked at through the eyes of a liberal, it makes a perverted kind of sense and offers one explanation for the unreasoning hatred many liberals have for America.

    It stands to reason if man is responsible for all these problems, then man should be able to solve them. The inability of secular progressives to solve all the world's problems is a direct challenge to their core beliefs. To acknowledge their inability to achieve utopia on earth would invalidate a lifetime of passionately held beliefs. Hence the desperate effort to place blame on someone human. Someone other than themselves.

    Enter George Bush. The greatest threat of all to the worldview of secular progressives.

    No wonder they hate him. He exemplifies personal responsibility over moral relativism. He bases his opinions on reason, not emotion. He is a man of God and stands for all the traditional values the SP's have worked so hard to replace. His rejection of the Kyoto Treaty was a direct affront to the secular progressive's new religion of environmentalism. The mere mention of George Bush in liberal circles is akin to pushing a puppy's nose in his own mess.

    By focusing on Bush hatred, liberals succeed in shifting the focus from their own failed policies. Much the same way third world dictators do. (Having a common enemy is a very powerful unifying factor.) By concentrating on all the real and imagined failings of Bush and America, the liberals can stay in their cocoon, safe from examination and analysis. This is called cognitive dissonance and is a cherished staple of secular progressives in their quest to redefine reality. Reality is what they say it is. End of debate. Sound familiar?

    In our soundbite world, it's only natural to want easy answers to complex questions. Understanding the phenomenon of anti-Americanism and Bush hatred doesn't lend itself to an easy answer. But it is a subject that needs to be addressed and understood before America is conquered from within.
    I am now a past chief and the views, opinions, and comments are mine and mine alone. I do not speak for any department or in any official capacity. Although, they would be smart to listen to me.

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    Get a load of this...

    Liberal Commentary about celebrating July 4th.

    Chris Satullo: A not-so-glorious Fourth
    U.S. atrocities are unworthy of our heritage.
    By Chris Satullo

    Inquirer Columnist

    Put the fireworks in storage.
    Cancel the parade.

    Tuck the soaring speeches in a drawer for another time.

    This year, America doesn't deserve to celebrate its birthday. This Fourth of July should be a day of quiet and atonement.

    For we have sinned.

    We have failed to pay attention. We've settled for lame excuses. We've spit on the memory of those who did that brave, brave thing in Philadelphia 232 years ago.

    The America those men founded should never torture a prisoner.

    The America they founded should never imprison people for years without charge or hearing.

    The America they founded should never ship prisoners to foreign lands, knowing their new jailers might torture them.

    Such abuses once were committed by the arrogant crowns of Europe, spawning rebellion.

    Today, our nation does such things in the name of our safety. Petrified, unwilling to take the risks that love of liberty demands, we close our eyes.

    We have done such things, on orders from the Oval Office. We have done them, without general outrage or shame.

    Abu Ghraib. Guantanamo. CIA secret prisons. "Rendition" of prisoners to foreign torture chambers.

    It's not enough that we had good reason to be scared.

    The men huddled long ago in Philadelphia had better reason. A British fleet floated off the Jersey coast, full of hands eager to hang them from the nearest lampposts.

    Yet they pledged their lives and sacred honor - no idle vow - to defend the "inalienable rights" of men. Inalienable - what does that signify? It means rights that belong to each person, simply by virtue of being human. Rights that can never be taken away, no matter what evil a person might do or might intend.

    Surely one of those is the right not to be tortured. Surely that is a piece of "life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness."

    This is the creed of July 4: No matter what it costs us, no matter how it scares us, no matter how foolish it seems to a cynical world, America should stand up for human rights.

    No, not even the brave men who picked up a quill, dipped it in ink and signed the parchment that summer day in Philadelphia lived up perfectly to the creed. But they did something extraordinary, founding a new nation upon a vow to oppose all the evil habits of tyranny.

    That is why history still honors them.

    But what will history think of us, of how we responded to our great challenge? Sept. 11 was a hideous evil, a grievous wound. Yet, truth told, it has not summoned our better angels as often as our worst.

    We have betrayed the July 4 creed. We trample the vows we make, hand to heart.

    Don't imagine that only the torturer's hand bears the guilt. The guilt reaches deep inside our Capitol, and beyond that - to us.

    Our silence is complicit. In our name, innocents were jailed, humans tortured, our Constitution mangled. And we said so little.

    We can't claim not to have known. The best among us raised the alarm. Heroes in uniform, judges in robes, they opposed the perverse logic of an administration drenched in fear, drunk on power.

    But did we heed them? Hardly. Barely . . .

    We were so busy. Soccer practice at 6. A credit card balance to fret. The final vote on Idol.

    We left it to those in power to keep our precious selves from harm. Whatever it took.

    We took the coward's way.

    The world sees this, even if we are too dim to grasp it. We've lost respect. We've shamed the memory of Jefferson, Adams and Franklin.

    And all for a scam. The waterboarding, the snarling dogs, the theft of sleep - all the diabolical tricks haven't made us safer. They may have averted this plot or that. But they've spawned new enemies by the thousands, made the jihadist rants ring true to so many ears.

    So put out no flags.

    Sing no patriotic hymns.

    We deserve no Fourth this year.

    Let us atone, in quiet and humility. Let us spend the day truly studying the example of our Founders. May we earn a new birth of courage before our nation's birthday next rolls around.
    I am now a past chief and the views, opinions, and comments are mine and mine alone. I do not speak for any department or in any official capacity. Although, they would be smart to listen to me.

    "The last thing I want to do is hurt you. But it's still on the list."

    "When tempted to fight fire with fire, remember that the Fire Department usually uses water."

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    Quote Originally Posted by txgp17 View Post
    That's pretty funny. Despite all the whining about Hollywood liberals Bob Hope was a very staunch and open conservative.

    And very funny.
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    Quote Originally Posted by ChiefKN View Post
    That was probably the most inaccurate bit of commentary I've read in a long time.
    Getinputout's post is very appropriate to Morgan's fallacy that liberals hate America.

    It is this type of rhetoric that has nutbags telling McCain they don't trust Obama because he's an Arab or a terrorist.
    Politics is like driving. To go forward select "D", to go backward select "R."

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    So let me see

    I think the War in Iraq was the right thing to do. We would loose all credibility if we let Saddam do as he pleased by ignoring the terms of the cease fire.

    I support abortion rights, that is a personal decision.

    I support environmental responsibility, Believe we need to use more wind and hydro; don't believe that man is causing the world to warm.

    I believe that people need to be responsible for their own decisions. I don't need some government bureaucrat doing it for me.

    I believe that the power lies with the people, not with government.

    I believe that Government is a hindrance to productivity.

    I believe we need to bring all of our troops home.

    I believe we need to close our borders and send anyone here illegally to jail, then back from where they came.

    I believe that our Educational system has more than enough money, the problem lies within the way it functions.

    I believe Government is too big and is trying to do too much.

    I believe we tax too much and spend way too much.

    I don't know if I am a Democrat, Republican, Republicrat, or Demlican.

    I do know this much. I am P.O.ed at that idiot Obama for asking me for money every time I go to his website. Sort of gives you an idea of what life under Obama will be like. Every time you turn around he will be wanting more of your money.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ScareCrow57 View Post
    I think the War in Iraq was the right thing to do. We would loose all credibility if we let Saddam do as he pleased by ignoring the terms of the cease fire.
    Should we invade every country because they ignore UN sanctions? Think very carefully before you answer.
    Politics is like driving. To go forward select "D", to go backward select "R."

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    Quote Originally Posted by scfire86 View Post
    Should we invade every country because they ignore UN sanctions? Think very carefully before you answer.
    Nope, first you try to talk to them, you try to get them to see the light, then you take action. Ask Khadfi how that works out.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ScareCrow57 View Post
    Nope, first you try to talk to them, you try to get them to see the light, then you take action. Ask Khadfi how that works out.
    Then you are clueless of one nation (that possesses WMD's) that has ignored and continues to ignore UN Resolutions for decades. When should we invade them and force them to comply?
    Last edited by scfire86; 10-19-2008 at 09:58 PM.
    Politics is like driving. To go forward select "D", to go backward select "R."

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    Quote Originally Posted by ScareCrow57 View Post
    So let me see

    I think the War in Iraq was the right thing to do. We would loose all credibility if we let Saddam do as he pleased by ignoring the terms of the cease fire.


    I believe we need to bring all of our troops home.

    .
    Okay, if you can't even make a logical argument when making short declarative sentences, do you ever wonder why people are confused by your posts.

    OBTW, which is it? Was Iraq the right thing to do or should we have kept the troops at home?

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    Extremists, whether right or left, are the problem. They get so caught up in rhetoric and the "no other way but mine" attitude that nothing of substance ever occurs.

    The extremists view doesn't fit me well and neither party addresses issues in totality the way I would like. You see I am pro-choice, but also pro-gun owner's rights. I believe in a system that helps people pull themselves up and out of poverty, but I don't believe in generation after generation of welfare. I believe in attempting to rehabilitate criminals, but I also believe in the death penalty. I believe government can best help the economy by stopping interfering with it and letting the up and down flows be real and self correcting. So tell me who is my candidate? I have strongly been campaigning for none of the above.

    Harve, can I be your campaign manager?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Geinandputitout View Post
    Okay, if you can't even make a logical argument when making short declarative sentences, do you ever wonder why people are confused by your posts.

    OBTW, which is it? Was Iraq the right thing to do or should we have kept the troops at home?
    Yea it is sort of confusing isn't it.

    It's like this. When you children misbehave you take action. Saddam had an agreement with the U.S., and misbehaved. If we (the U.S.) didn't stand up to this tyrant then our words would mean nothing anywhere in the world.

    Having said that, if all of our troops had come back here following WWII we wouldn't have so many enemies in the world. Just bring all our troops back home and stop sticking our noses in everyone else's business.

    So let me put this way. Let's clean up our messes and then bring all of our toys home.

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    “The left subscribes to the French Revolution, whose guiding principles were ‘Liberty, Equality, Fraternity.’ The right subscribes to the American formula, ‘Life, Liberty and the Pursuit of Happiness.’ The French/European notion of equality is not mentioned. The right rejects the French Revolution and does not hold Western Europe as a model. The left does. That alone makes right and left irreconcilable. The left envisions an egalitarian society. The right does not. The left values equality above other values because it yearns for an America in which all people have similar amounts of material possessions... The right values equality in opportunity and strongly believes that all people are created equal, but the right values liberty, a man-woman based family and other values above equality.” —Dennis Prager

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    Quote Originally Posted by ScareCrow57 View Post
    It's like this. When you children misbehave you take action. Saddam had an agreement with the U.S., and misbehaved. If we (the U.S.) didn't stand up to this tyrant then our words would mean nothing anywhere in the world.
    You still haven't answered my question. Should we invade all nations who ignore UN resolutions? At what point do we say they've had long enough to comply.
    Politics is like driving. To go forward select "D", to go backward select "R."

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    Quote Originally Posted by ScareCrow57 View Post
    So let me put this way. Let's clean up our messes and then bring all of our toys home.
    At what point is the mess cleaned up and who is qualified to make the decision that the mess is cleaned enough for the toys to return?

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    Quote Originally Posted by scfire86 View Post
    You still haven't answered my question. Should we invade all nations who ignore UN resolutions? At what point do we say they've had long enough to comply.
    You are asking a loaded question. I imagine the answer is China. Could be Cuba, Korea, or a number of others.You really don't give enough specifics or even hypotheticals to say anything.

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