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    Default Spread the Wealth!

    Great bit of commentary from the Christian Science Monitor

    Obama, Joe the plumber, and the gospel of envy
    By Scott W. Johnson Scott W. Johnson
    Fri Oct 17, 4:00 am ET

    Minneapolis – When Barack Obama responded to the Ohio plumber who didn't want his taxes raised by saying that he wanted to "spread the wealth around," I wanted to tell the Illinois senator to spread his own wealth around.

    Senator Obama, in a rare moment of candor, all but told "Joe the plumber" that his wealth should be seized in the name of equity. Their personal encounter this past Sunday played out one of the old themes of democratic politics: the appeal to the many to take from the few. It's traditionally an easy sell in democratic regimes.

    Despite Obama's implication to the contrary, however, it doesn't represent much in the way of change.

    The personal income tax, the federal government's main source of revenue, is collected overwhelmingly from a relative handful of Americans. Indeed, the most recent IRS data shows that the top 1 percent of filers paid nearly 40 percent of all income taxes. That means the top 1 percent paid about the same as the bottom 95 percent, according to the Tax Foundation, a nonpartisan research group. The bottom 50 percent paid just 3 percent.

    Given that poorer citizens always outnumber the rich, political philosophers have long worried that government based on majority rule could lead to organized theft from the wealthy by the democratic masses. "If the majority distributes among itself the things of a minority, it is evident that it will destroy the city," Aristotle warned.

    The Founders of the United States shared Aristotle's worry. Up through their time, history had shown all known democracies to be, as James Madison put it, "incompatible with personal security or the rights of property." Madison and others therefore made it a "first object of government" to protect personal property from unjust confiscation.

    Given that one of the causes of the American Revolution was an unjust tax, the Founders understood very well that taxation could become a way for one group to prey on another. So while the Constitution empowered the federal government to levy taxes, it limited this power mostly to indirect taxes such as tariffs, duties, and excise taxes. For much of American history, the federal government subsisted solely on those fees.

    Until the Civil War, the idea of a tax on individual incomes would have seemed preposterous to most Americans. Only as an emergency wartime measure did Congress adopt an income tax in the 1860s, and the measure was allowed to lapse with little fanfare in 1872.

    The modern income tax begins with the Progressive era in American politics. In an influential 1889 article titled "The Owners of the United States," crusading attorney Thomas Shearman argued that the lion's share of the country's wealth was in a limited number of hands. If an income tax were not adopted, he warned, within 30 years "the United States of America will be substantially owned" by fewer than 50,000 people.

    This marked the beginning of a never-ending campaign. Many activists since have characterized America as a permanent plutocracy. And their prescription has generally been more and higher taxes.

    Shearman's advocacy of an income tax found a receptive audience in populist politician William Jennings Bryan. Exploiting the dire conditions created by the depression of 1893, Bryan promoted the adoption of an income tax.

    His proposal succeeded when Congress passed a 2 percent flat tax on incomes over $4,000 in 1894. The following year, however, the Supreme Court held the tax to be unconstitutional.

    In response, Progressives condemned the Constitution as an instrument crafted by the rich to protect their selfish interests (J. Allen Smith), and a document rendered obsolete by intellectual progress in the century since its drafting (Woodrow Wilson).

    Frenzied attacks on "the rich" and "the wealthy" culminated in the ratification of the 16th Amendment in 1913, authorizing federal taxation of income from all sources without limit. The same year, historian Charles Beard published "An Economic Interpretation of the United States Constitution." This book – later debunked – suggested that the Constitution was the handiwork of a propertied elite serving its own interests. Such sentiment has poisoned American political thought ever since.

    So why hasn't the majority in America helped itself to more of the minority's wealth, as Aristotle and our Founders feared? Partly because the protections for individual property erected by the Founders have worked. Partly, too, because many Americans' political convictions are (thankfully) based on principle rather than immediate economic self-interest. And partly because the fraction of Americans who think of themselves as rich, or likely to become rich in the future, is quite large, undercutting the incentive for bashing the rich.

    Obama's appeal for higher taxes to "spread the wealth around" nevertheless harks back to an old theme in political philosophy and American politics. You can believe in it, but it's not exactly change, and it is more to be worried about than hoped for.
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    McCain likes to cite Teddy Roosevelt as one of his heroes. This is TR's perspective on governing and the limits of capitalism.

    "The essence of any struggle for healthy liberty has always been, and must always be, to take from some one man or class of men the right to enjoy power, or wealth, or position, or immunity, which has not been earned by service to his or their fellows."

    "At many stages in the advance of humanity, this conflict between the men who possess more than they have earned and the men who have earned more than they possess is the central condition of progress."

    "The absence of effective State, and, especially, national, restraint upon unfair money-getting has tended to create a small class of enormously wealthy and economically powerful men, whose chief object is to hold and increase their power. The prime need is to change the conditions which enable these men to accumulate power which is not for the general welfare that they should hold or exercise. We grudge no man a fortune which represents his own power and sagacity, when exercised with entire regard to the welfare of his fellows. … We grudge no man a fortune in civil life if it is honorably obtained and well used. It is not even enough that it should have gained without doing damage to the community. We should permit it to be gained only so long as the gaining represents benefit to the community. This, I know, implies a policy of a far more active governmental interference with social and economic conditions in this country than we have yet had, but I think we have got to face the fact that such an increase in governmental control is now necessary."

    "The right to regulate the use of wealth in the public interest is universally admitted."

    – Theordore Roosevelt, “The New Nationalism,” 1910


    So there you have it, TR was a Marxist. I bet McCain didn't know that TR was a closet commie ahead of his time.
    Last edited by scfire86; 10-19-2008 at 03:30 AM.
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    That's nice SC, but this is about Obama and his true desire to redistribute the wealth. In an Obama world we all work and are all given the same allowance form the government. The government provides for all of your needs.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ScareCrow57 View Post
    That's nice SC, but this is about Obama and his true desire to redistribute the wealth. In an Obama world we all work and are all given the same allowance form the government. The government provides for all of your needs.
    Where has Obama stated anything resembling your incredibly stupid remark.
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    Thumbs down

    In an Obama world we all work and are all given the same allowance form the government. The government provides for all of your needs.


    Quote Originally Posted by scfire86 View Post
    Where has Obama stated anything resembling your incredibly stupid remark.

    That is the logical end to the type of redistribution of wealth that many on the left wing side of the democratic party seem to want to impose, it is not a stupid remark.
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    Quote Originally Posted by scfire86 View Post
    Where has Obama stated anything resembling your incredibly stupid remark.
    Perhaps you have heard of Joe the Plumber, flat our said he wants to redistribute wealth

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    Quote Originally Posted by ScareCrow57 View Post
    Perhaps you have heard of Joe the Plumber, flat our said he wants to redistribute wealth
    Great. Vote for him. All tax plans and deductions redistribute wealth.

    It's just a matter of which ones you find to be more acceptable.
    Last edited by scfire86; 10-19-2008 at 02:47 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by ScareCrow57 View Post
    That's nice SC, but this is about Obama and his true desire to redistribute the wealth. In an Obama world we all work and are all given the same allowance form the government. The government provides for all of your needs.
    Come on, you need to focus today. All economic policies are a redistribution of wealth. Governments show their support of things by making them less expensive - the interest deduction for home ownerhsip. They make things that are less fond of, more expensive.


    Unless you are advocating the complete dissolution of government, there is going to be large amount of "spreading the wealth around." The question that you have to ask yourself is "where do you want it spread?" That is a questions I can't answer for you.

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    Quote Originally Posted by scfire86 View Post
    Where has Obama stated anything resembling your incredibly stupid remark.
    Dude. It was on every channel Obama telling a man on the side of the road spreading the wealth around is good for everybody. That is nothing more than redistributing wealth. Also his plan to give 95% of all Americans a tax cut when almost half of all Americans have no real tax burden to cut from. His $250,000 threshold of tax cuts vs. tax increases tells those that aspire to do better that they will be penalized for ambition. There are probably more examples but I don't have the time or energy to look them up.
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    Quote Originally Posted by MTKROUSH View Post
    Dude. It was on every channel Obama telling a man on the side of the road spreading the wealth around is good for everybody. That is nothing more than redistributing wealth. Also his plan to give 95% of all Americans a tax cut when almost half of all Americans have no real tax burden to cut from. His $250,000 threshold of tax cuts vs. tax increases tells those that aspire to do better that they will be penalized for ambition. There are probably more examples but I don't have the time or energy to look them up.
    It says no such thing to those who have the ambition to earn those sums of compensation. Do you believe someone is going to say, "No thanks boss, I'm being taxed higher so I'm not going to take that promotion that pays $300K."

    I'm thinking you don't have to worry about Obama's plan ever affecting you. If you have a employee provided health care plan I'd be more worried about McCain's plan to tax that benefit as income. Or his desire to put you in Soc Security if you aren't already or start dismantling your defined benefit pension plan if you have one of those. Since those are more likely to affect you personally I'd take a more serious look at how McCain's programs might affect you.

    McCain's latest mantra is that Obama is a socialist.

    NEWSFLASH!! The bailout package that McCain voted to enact is socialism.

    When Republicans do it, it's helping Americans. When Democrats do it, you're a socialist.
    Last edited by scfire86; 10-19-2008 at 09:57 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by MTKROUSH View Post
    Dude. It was on every channel Obama telling a man on the side of the road spreading the wealth around is good for everybody. That is nothing more than redistributing wealth. Also his plan to give 95% of all Americans a tax cut when almost half of all Americans have no real tax burden to cut from. His $250,000 threshold of tax cuts vs. tax increases tells those that aspire to do better that they will be penalized for ambition. There are probably more examples but I don't have the time or energy to look them up.
    That's because your imagining things.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Geinandputitout View Post
    That's because your imagining things.
    He is? I guess I imagined Obama telling Joe the Plumber about his tax plan. I believe his words were "I believe when you spread the wealth around it's good for everybody." That's what most people call a fact. It's all over the news and youtube, so it's not imagined.

    Obama's also stating 95% of households or people (depending on the day) will get a tax cut. The Tax Policy Center puts that number closer to 80% of households and goes further to state taht 40% of workers don't pay income tax. These people, who aren't paying taxes, are going to get a check from Obama's tax plan.

    The thing that's been lost in Joe the Plumbers debacle is that he's single, so he only has to exceed $200K, not $250K.

    It's not complicated. It's politely called wealth redistribution. "Communism" is a four lettered word that no one dares to utter.

    No that it's going to matter, as Pelosi and Reid are already working up plans for increasing spending and taxes. Now how's that going to work for the big O. "I'm sorry citizens, but it's better for everybody if everyone in the middle class pays more taxes to help those poor people who refuse to get off the butt and work and who bought too much house and blew their money on big screen TVs and other frivilous things instead of paying off their maxed out credit cards."

    Obama's plan is going to go to the same place as Clinton's promised middle-class tax cuts, to the wayside.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Catch22 View Post
    He is? I guess I imagined Obama telling Joe the Plumber about his tax plan. I believe his words were "I believe when you spread the wealth around it's good for everybody." That's what most people call a fact. It's all over the news and youtube, so it's not imagined.

    Obama's also stating 95% of households or people (depending on the day) will get a tax cut. The Tax Policy Center puts that number closer to 80% of households and goes further to state taht 40% of workers don't pay income tax. These people, who aren't paying taxes, are going to get a check from Obama's tax plan.

    The thing that's been lost in Joe the Plumbers debacle is that he's single, so he only has to exceed $200K, not $250K.

    It's not complicated. It's politely called wealth redistribution. "Communism" is a four lettered word that no one dares to utter.

    No that it's going to matter, as Pelosi and Reid are already working up plans for increasing spending and taxes. Now how's that going to work for the big O. "I'm sorry citizens, but it's better for everybody if everyone in the middle class pays more taxes to help those poor people who refuse to get off the butt and work and who bought too much house and blew their money on big screen TVs and other frivilous things instead of paying off their maxed out credit cards."

    Obama's plan is going to go to the same place as Clinton's promised middle-class tax cuts, to the wayside.
    If you are clearing $200 large, you can afford to pay income tax. It is kind of entertaining to listen to everyone on these boards. One would think that everyone here has at least a passing connection to the fire service. That would indicate that at least some of you are speaking out of both sides of your mouths.

    On one hand you utter words like communism, and government is incapable of doing anything right. On the other hand you have some connection to public safety agencies. At least indicating that you have some connection to actually providing some type of governmental service. So unless you are a pos wackenhut guard you really are speaking out of both sides of you mouth.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Geinandputitout View Post
    The question that you have to ask yourself is "where do you want it spread?" That is a questions I can't answer for you.
    WHOA..also, how much personal wealth do you want government to take to spread around.

    That is the real question.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Geinandputitout View Post
    If you are clearing $200 large, you can afford to pay income tax. It is kind of entertaining to listen to everyone on these boards. One would think that everyone here has at least a passing connection to the fire service. That would indicate that at least some of you are speaking out of both sides of your mouths.

    On one hand you utter words like communism, and government is incapable of doing anything right. On the other hand you have some connection to public safety agencies. At least indicating that you have some connection to actually providing some type of governmental service. So unless you are a pos wackenhut guard you really are speaking out of both sides of you mouth.
    This is typical of those indoctrinated in the class warfare/liberal mind set.

    If you are clearing $200 large, you can afford to pay income tax.

    What you fail to see is that this is not the point. Hey if you make $100 bucks a year you can afford income tax (You won't pay any, by the way).

    The point is this:

    - Why punish someone who has had the kind of success we here in America call the "American Dream".
    - Taking a disproportionate share of income from those who make that kind of coin actually hurts the economy in a number of ways (here are two). These are people who start small businesses and HIRE people. These are the people who invest in various markets and provide capital to other larger businesses who HIRE people.

    As for this silly point about working for the public safety agencies... Of COURSE we agree that there needs to be some sort of taxation to make government run. What we don't want a system that is unfair, corrupt and wasteful.

    So far, we are 0 for 3 on those measures.
    I am now a past chief and the views, opinions, and comments are mine and mine alone. I do not speak for any department or in any official capacity. Although, they would be smart to listen to me.

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    Just poking a sleeping dog here, but how many have watched the entire "Joe the Plumber" tape uncut?

    I saw Obama mention a lot of other positive intitiatives for the post 250K small business owner too. It sounds to me like most have seen some "media clips", that are edited to reflect the preferred slant of the reporter or organization.


    And just so I don't get slammed as being slanted, I did see some uncut Palin interview tape that certainly doesn't make her out to be as dumb or uninformed as the officially editied versions do.

    It is always interesting to see how the campaign process is affected by both sides of so-called unbiased media.
    Last edited by mcaldwell; 10-20-2008 at 12:42 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by ChiefKN View Post
    This is typical of those indoctrinated in the class warfare/liberal mind set.

    If you are clearing $200 large, you can afford to pay income tax.
    And this is typical of the conservative/screw you IGM mindset.

    McCain has proposals that will be far more injurious to me than the taxation I will pay above $250K threshold.

    Yet you ignore them.
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    Quote Originally Posted by ChiefKN View Post
    This is typical of those indoctrinated in the class warfare/liberal mind set.

    If you are clearing $200 large, you can afford to pay income tax.

    What you fail to see is that this is not the point. Hey if you make $100 bucks a year you can afford income tax (You won't pay any, by the way).

    The point is this:

    - Why punish someone who has had the kind of success we here in America call the "American Dream".
    - Taking a disproportionate share of income from those who make that kind of coin actually hurts the economy in a number of ways (here are two). These are people who start small businesses and HIRE people. These are the people who invest in various markets and provide capital to other larger businesses who HIRE people.

    As for this silly point about working for the public safety agencies... Of COURSE we agree that there needs to be some sort of taxation to make government run. What we don't want a system that is unfair, corrupt and wasteful.

    So far, we are 0 for 3 on those measures.

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    Quote Originally Posted by scfire86 View Post
    I'm thinking you don't have to worry about Obama's plan ever affecting you. If you have a employee provided health care plan I'd be more worried about McCain's plan to tax that benefit as income. Or his desire to put you in Soc Security if you aren't already or start dismantling your defined benefit pension plan if you have one of those. Since those are more likely to affect you personally I'd take a more serious look at how McCain's programs might affect you.
    While I am not for this plan, nor am I a McCain supporter........an employer based health plan is an object of financial value. Still much better run than any program from CMS.

    Quote Originally Posted by scfire86 View Post
    McCain's latest mantra is that Obama is a socialist.
    Quote to me where McCain has said this. I have heard many a supporter of him say this, and I do believe it to be (somewhat) true, I have never heard McCain say Obama was a Socialist.

    Quote Originally Posted by scfire86 View Post
    NEWSFLASH!! The bailout package that McCain voted to enact is socialism.
    This is the same one that Obama voted for that adds about a trillion dollars in new Federal debt? The same debt you decry Bush for causing.

    I get the point of your post, and nationalization of banks is socialism.......and it will not prevent this crap and corruption from occurring again either.....it does nothing to stop the corruption and cronyism, nothing to punish the criminals responsible for this (and I don't mean time at Club Fed in Danbury or Eglin.) It only gives money to the same crooks and holds no one accountable - while screwing you, me, and the next generation.

    Quote Originally Posted by scfire86 View Post
    When Republicans do it, it's helping Americans. When Democrats do it, you're a socialist.
    Nope. When both do it, then it is the same thing. Both parties really are not that different in what they wish to accomplish (not necessarily what they say.) Just different plans to get to the same point.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Geinandputitout View Post
    If you are clearing $200 large, you can afford to pay income tax. It is kind of entertaining to listen to everyone on these boards. One would think that everyone here has at least a passing connection to the fire service. That would indicate that at least some of you are speaking out of both sides of your mouths.

    On one hand you utter words like communism, and government is incapable of doing anything right. On the other hand you have some connection to public safety agencies. At least indicating that you have some connection to actually providing some type of governmental service. So unless you are a pos wackenhut guard you really are speaking out of both sides of you mouth.
    Apparently, I can afford to pay taxes even though I'm only making about $33K per year ($65K combined). So we got back to why should Joe Small Business man have to pay more than I do?

    Remember back in the 80's and early 90's when there was a huge "Made in the USA" campaign? Even Wal-Mart stocked up everything they could with products that were made in the US. Then, we get Bill Clinton and that disappears. Small businesses close left and right (including my dad's) because big corporations are now buying cheaper products from places like Japan, China, Taiwan, Pakistan, and places like that. What happened there? What's to make be believe that it's not going to get worse under this Democrat?

    As far as my connection to gov't through my job, what's your point? Because I work for a gov't entity that it's hypocritical of me to criticize gov't? I'll have you know I criticize my employer frequently for wasteful spending. I criticize my state gov't for their wasteful spending and entitlement programs. I've also said time and time again, the priority for gov't spending needs to be security, protection, and infrastructure. In case you're too dense to put it together, the fire service falls under "protection."

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    I'm not voting for Obama because I remember back in the 90s how I never got a tax refund after the co-Presidents got into office,instead having to PAY higher taxes when I never broke $23K from 1993- 2000.The Dems raised taxes on the lower echelon of the middle class and I'm not giving them another shot at doing it again.
    Also,he keeps griping about companies leaving the country and taking jobs with them so he's going to tax them more.
    Yeah,there's an incentive to stay if you're going to be taxed more for staying.
    Those companies that have left for India,Indonesia and other places aren't just going their for cheaper labor.If taxes in one country cut too high into your profit margin to build new factories,refineries and hiring more employees,then you move to where those costs are lower.
    The only business I have owned was an ice cream truck that I leased.I purchased the ice cream that I sold and bought my own fuel.What little was left after that was usually going for seed money for the day which could be wiped out by one person buying a $1.00 treat with a $20 because they had nothing smalled.
    Believe me,I learned that companies succeed not BECAUSE of government control and taxes but IN SPITE of the government and taxes.They have to pay down all the taxes and regulation requirements before they can make a nickel.
    When Obama taxes all the corporations into moving overseas,the only people who will have money left will be those supporting him now:the actors espousing their opinions like it's God's Word coming down from the mountain.
    I wonder how supportive Sean Penn will be when he's having his money used to pay for people that don't pay taxes but "deserve" a refund because it wouldn't be fair that they didn't get one while someone pounding nails does because he was overcharged on his taxes.
    These aren't word to live by.They're just the opinions of Doug the Towboater.

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    Quote Originally Posted by scfire86 View Post
    It says no such thing to those who have the ambition to earn those sums of compensation. Do you believe someone is going to say, "No thanks boss, I'm being taxed higher so I'm not going to take that promotion that pays $300K."
    Probably not. Who knows what goes on inside the minds of men.

    I'm thinking you don't have to worry about Obama's plan ever affecting you. If you have a employee provided health care plan I'd be more worried about McCain's plan to tax that benefit as income. Or his desire to put you in Soc Security if you aren't already or start dismantling your defined benefit pension plan if you have one of those. Since those are more likely to affect you personally I'd take a more serious look at how McCain's programs might affect you.
    Not this year. Maybe next or maybe the next. Maybe not in my own income. It will effect everyone that does any business in this country with those that make more than the magic $250K. I am more concerned with the children that we are putting in Congress and the Senate than the President. The President is one man or woman. These others are 535. The President can do nothing without it first going through the Hill.

    McCain's latest mantra is that Obama is a socialist.
    Your point?

    NEWSFLASH!! The bailout package that McCain voted to enact is socialism.
    That arguement is a wash. Both major party candidates for President and one VP candidate voted for it as well as 70 something other idiots.

    When Republicans do it, it's helping Americans. When Democrats do it, you're a socialist.
    SC. Partner. There is only enough room in my mouth for the words that I utter. I have never said anything even close to if Republicans do it it helps America. I am now and have forever been and Independent. My thoughts are that the biggest problem with government today is it is run by politicians.
    Last edited by MTKROUSH; 10-20-2008 at 04:49 PM. Reason: forgot something
    To err is human, To forgive divine and at times I am as much of both as you will ever find

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    Quote Originally Posted by Geinandputitout View Post
    If you are clearing $200 large, you can afford to pay income tax. It is kind of entertaining to listen to everyone on these boards. One would think that everyone here has at least a passing connection to the fire service. That would indicate that at least some of you are speaking out of both sides of your mouths.
    That is a great line of thought. If you make so much you can afford taxes. I expect that foolishness from Noz. Government increases taxes on any group because they make a number large enough to say you can afford more just to give checks to those that pay nothing is ridiculous. Not just that but when increasing taxes on $250K is not enough because of the checks to the $0 payers what will be new high water mark? $100k, then $75K, maybe as low as 50K? I'm asking because I really want answers before voting for either of these men.

    On one hand you utter words like communism, and government is incapable of doing anything right. On the other hand you have some connection to public safety agencies. At least indicating that you have some connection to actually providing some type of governmental service. So unless you are a pos wackenhut guard you really are speaking out of both sides of you mouth.
    It is the duty of the American people to question their government. That's why every 2 years we can change COngressmen, Half of the Senate is up for reelection every 3 years, The President can only serve 2 4 year terms. It takes ever 18 months to elect a President due to Primaries and the General election.
    To err is human, To forgive divine and at times I am as much of both as you will ever find

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    Quote Originally Posted by MTKROUSH View Post
    Probably not.
    Then it negates your point that individuals may not be be motivated for fear of being punished by being put in a higher tax bracket.

    Quote Originally Posted by MTKROUSH View Post
    Your point?

    That arguement is a wash. Both major party candidates for President and one VP candidate voted for it as well as 70 something other idiots.
    The point being that McCain accuses Obama of being a socialist when he has supported socialist policies. Just pointing out the fallacy of his argument.

    Quote Originally Posted by MTKROUSH View Post
    SC. Partner. There is only enough room in my mouth for the words that I utter. I have never said anything even close to if Republicans do it it helps America. I am now and have forever been and Independent. My thoughts are that the biggest problem with government today is it is run by politicians.
    We elect politicians. Like it or not, they are a reflection of us.
    Politics is like driving. To go forward select "D", to go backward select "R."

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