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    Default Genesis Rescue Tools

    Need some help here, we are looking at tools right now to purchase and the other day I used Genesis for the first time and was really impressed. We had just finished a demo with Holmatro which I was also impressed with when the Genesis guy showed up and asked to show off his tools. Overall a good demo but here is the question. Is the Genesis tool line along with the power units, hoses and couplings (especially the OSC coupling also known as Hurst streamline) compliant with NFPA 1936. I know they test through TUV instead of UL but there website talks a lot about how NFPA is great but never comes out and says there stuff is compliant. Also anyone using Genesis please give me some feedback good or bad. I am not a fan of any single system just want to get some good tools that are reliable and will do the job.

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    Both Hurst and Genesis tools use the same couplings from Cejn. Both Genesis and Hurst tools are completely NFPA 1936 with the Streamline and One Step Couplings.

    Remember NFPA 1936 does not certify couplings individually, but as a unit with the tool. As to coupling design, NFPA requires only the following....tools must have a positive locking feature; a check-valve rated for recommended pressure; and a 2:1 safety feature. (Reference www.nfpa.org and register as a visitor). If the tool is certified, then everything involved with that tool has passed certification. Once a tool is certified, manufacturers are not authorized to modify tools without retesting.

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    Good information to know. Does anyone know how the overdrive feature on the Genesis Outlaw power unit works. I know it diverts power from one line to the other but my concern is with all that pressure being sent to one line, can the tools, hoses and couplings handle the pressure and are they rated for those pressures.

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    Quote Originally Posted by fdmedx View Post
    Need some help here, we are looking at tools right now to purchase and the other day I used Genesis for the first time and was really impressed. We had just finished a demo with Holmatro which I was also impressed with when the Genesis guy showed up and asked to show off his tools. Overall a good demo but here is the question. Is the Genesis tool line along with the power units, hoses and couplings (especially the OSC coupling also known as Hurst streamline) compliant with NFPA 1936. I know they test through TUV instead of UL but there website talks a lot about how NFPA is great but never comes out and says there stuff is compliant. Also anyone using Genesis please give me some feedback good or bad. I am not a fan of any single system just want to get some good tools that are reliable and will do the job.
    We've been using the Genesis system for 9 years or so and love it. It has worked well for us and a few neighboring FD's have also gotten the Genesis system.
    The comments made by me are my opinions only. They DO NOT reflect the opinions of my employer(s). If you have an issue with something I may say, take it up with me, either by posting in the forums, emailing me through my profile, or PMing me through my profile.
    We are all adults so there is no need to act like a child........
    IACOJ

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    Thumbs up Go Genesis!

    I am not one to support or bash a certain product unless I feel 100% sure that my opinion has a leg to stand on. I used Genesis tools on the department I was on in Illinois...we used to get an astronomical amount of extrications- I can honestly say I would never use anything else. We had Hurst, then Amkus. They were both OK for the time we used them, but when we switched to Genesis- wow. I moved to a larger municipality out west and we also use Genesis. The speed of the tools is amazing, the strength of the cutters is second to none. One thing I have always admired about them- they are constantly coming out with new equipment. Their product line is never stale. Our dealer support was very strong and the sales guys always seem to be down-to-earth. We dont run nearly as many trap calls out here, but the ones we have were no match for the set we have on our ladder company. (We've got 9 sets total). Like I said before, I am not one to express my opinion on equipment too often- but i felt props were due in this case. Stay safe out there guys!

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    Beast and everyone else thanks for the information. This is the kind of feedback I need. We just got our quote in from Genesis and I was shocked at the savings. Keep the information coming please and thanks.

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    Quote Originally Posted by GFD615 View Post
    Both Hurst and Genesis tools use the same couplings from Cejn. Both Genesis and Hurst tools are completely NFPA 1936 with the Streamline and One Step Couplings.

    Remember NFPA 1936 does not certify couplings individually, but as a unit with the tool. As to coupling design, NFPA requires only the following....tools must have a positive locking feature; a check-valve rated for recommended pressure; and a 2:1 safety feature. (Reference www.nfpa.org and register as a visitor). If the tool is certified, then everything involved with that tool has passed certification. Once a tool is certified, manufacturers are not authorized to modify tools without retesting.
    Sorry, You are 100% incorrect. NFPA does not certify anything, the produce a minimum standard to be tested by a third party, and there is a certification for hydraulic couplers.
    The CEJN coupler is not. Niether Hurst nor Genesis (Weber) can produce any documentation because there is none. This is also why none of the product literiture nor any of the tools have labeling which also a part of NFPA criteria.

    But please, don't take my research as truth, check with CEJN, IDEX or Weber.

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    Post Talk about calling someone out with the wrong info

    Quote Originally Posted by hrtrescue10 View Post
    Sorry, You are 100% incorrect. NFPA does not certify anything, the produce a minimum standard to be tested by a third party, and there is a certification for hydraulic couplers.
    The CEJN coupler is not. Niether Hurst nor Genesis (Weber) can produce any documentation because there is none. This is also why none of the product literiture nor any of the tools have labeling which also a part of NFPA criteria.

    But please, don't take my research as truth, check with CEJN, IDEX or Weber.
    Actually, HRT (Should be UHRTSRescue- Undercover Hydraulic Rescue Tool Salesman)- I would have to say YOU are about 80% wrong. Sorry.

    You are correct that NFPa does not certify any HRT's, they just produce the standard. Where you are lacking information is the fact that both the Hurst HP and Genesis tools do meet the NFPA 1936 standard (2005) with the quick connection coupling by CEJN. They do have the documentation. Both companies forwarded the paperwork to me within the past 60 days. As for the other remark, you either havent picked up one of their tools in about 15 years or you are blind (NFPA labels do not come in brail...yet) both brands ARE properly labeled to the NFPA criteria. We just did a one year field study and evaluation before purchasing SEVERAL sets of one of the aforementioned brands- trust me, we did our research. I can pretty much conclude who you must work for based on your bitter outlash. Spend a little more time out in the field selling your tools and a little less time on the buffy forums. I'm spent.

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    Default Hey Everyone- Hrtrescue10 Sells Tools!

    Everyone- check out this guys other posts...
    (HRTRESCUE10) you will clearly see he sells tools for a company that is getting SPANKED by the competition...we need to flush guys like this out of the woods. GO AWAY...NO ONE IS ON HERE TO HEAR SALESMEN CRY!

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    within last 6 months have demoed hurst, holmatro, amkus and t-n-t, and gensis. by far the gensis is the top of the line tool in my opinion, and i am a full time FF for a dept that does about 10 extrications a year. However we just got t-n-t through CEDAP, it is free for the most part, Good luck and use and abuse them before you buy.

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    I am no expert on Rescue Tools - I belong to a rural volunteer fire department doing about one or two entrapments a year - we have been lucky with State funding and now have two sets of Genesis Tools - we got the second set to deal with the large farm equipment that populates our community. The tools deal with legacy genesis tools nicely - not a problem so we can maximize the equipment. The tools are very very reliable. They are easy to use and will work on heavy equipment. They are impressive and a good buy. I am not an expert of other systems but as a user of the Genesis Tools with limited training - they are good as far as I am concerned.... I think in most situations - you will find success with these tools.

    Quaker 49

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    Regarding the question as to how the hose lines will handle the added pressure of the overdrive feature. My understanding is that the overdrive shifts pump capacity to the line, in other words the pressure in the line is still 10,500 psi, but all of the pumps power and fluid is powering the one line. The effect would be faster tool operation and the tool would "build pressure faster". I may be wrong but that is how I understand the system to work.

    As far as what I think of the tool system, they are on our dept's christmas list.

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    Quote Originally Posted by NoFireGeek View Post
    Actually, HRT (Should be UHRTSRescue- Undercover Hydraulic Rescue Tool Salesman)- I would have to say YOU are about 80% wrong. Sorry.

    You are correct that NFPa does not certify any HRT's, they just produce the standard. Where you are lacking information is the fact that both the Hurst HP and Genesis tools do meet the NFPA 1936 standard (2005) with the quick connection coupling by CEJN. They do have the documentation. Both companies forwarded the paperwork to me within the past 60 days. As for the other remark, you either havent picked up one of their tools in about 15 years or you are blind (NFPA labels do not come in brail...yet) both brands ARE properly labeled to the NFPA criteria. We just did a one year field study and evaluation before purchasing SEVERAL sets of one of the aforementioned brands- trust me, we did our research. I can pretty much conclude who you must work for based on your bitter outlash. Spend a little more time out in the field selling your tools and a little less time on the buffy forums. I'm spent.
    You sound much more like a dealer than those you are calling out, but both of you sound pretty bitter!

    I did my own checking, and as far as Hurst low pressure goes, they are NOT compliant with the streamline, so says my local rep and his sales guy. AND I checked the UL website, as my TNT dealer suggested. Each tool, pump and hose assembly, which is a hose and coupling tested as a set, that meets the requirements are listed. The reason the streamline is not, is because of what someone on this post said, NFPA 1936-2005, section 6.1.1.8 states: " All rescue tool quick-connect couplers shall be equipped with a locking feature to prevent accidental uncoupling during operation."
    I got that straight from the standard, the local hurst guy showed me where to download it for $25. That also means to me that Genesis with the OSC and Centaur with the streamline are not either, TUV is just a little harder to search, but give me time, I like a challenge. I also like Genesis and Hurst low pressure, don't care much for the Centaur, so call me biased if you like. Oh, and I have low post numbers also, I read mostly, only recently wishing to put my two cents in. I am not certified in 4, 6, or 10 states, but I do teach at home, and have a decent reputation with the three manufacturers that are local, and often help each with classes using their respective tools. So I think I have a decent, open opinion. If you have paperwork stating otherwise, I would check your sources, as even the factory rep here does not have them. I also ask that you post them. Kind of like the photos from the TNT mishap, let us see what it is you say you have.
    As far as the list of tools and hoses hurst offers with compliance, Here goes:

    from: http://database.ul.com/cgi-bin/XYV/t...373&sequence=1

    SYBB.SA12080
    Powered Rescue Tools
    Page Bottom


    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    Powered Rescue Tools

    See General Information for Powered Rescue Tools


    HURST JAWS OF LIFE, UNIT OF IDEX CORP SA12080
    711 N POST RD
    SHELBY, NC 28150 USA

    Rescue Equipment: Models JL-20C, JL-30C, JL-60C rams; Models JL-ER, JL-MR hose reels; Model ML-16C combination tool; Model ML-32 transformer tool; Models S-24, S-32, S-40 spreaders; Models Multi Tool Manifold, Multi Tool Manifold with Dump Valve, Remote Dump Valve, Remote Selector Valve Manifold; Hose assemblies, Models 3530016, 3530022, 353R090, 353R091, 353R136, 353R138, 353R151, 353R153, 353R159, 353R225, 353R226, 353R227.

    Last Updated on 2006-02-13

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    Thumbs up

    Quote Originally Posted by fdmedx View Post
    Good information to know. Does anyone know how the overdrive feature on the Genesis Outlaw power unit works. I know it diverts power from one line to the other but my concern is with all that pressure being sent to one line, can the tools, hoses and couplings handle the pressure and are they rated for those pressures.
    I think he described it as more of a 2 stage pump to single stage pump. Over drive is volume mode. Contact a sale person, the technician can explain it correctly. CAUTION when in overdrive like anything else the more volume increases the heat. tool will get hot to touch, WEAR GLOVES AND LONG SLEEVES. You'll see.

    I researched for almost a year on tool systems. It came down to GENESIS vs TNT. GENSIS won due to service availability/ price, capability, repetitive cut test, blade reliability, size, function of handles and able to take off quickly to get into tight space. The Combi tool also made the deal. The Brute Vario 16 vs TNT combi tool. The brute was able to be a 99% cutter and easy to switch from spreader combi to full cutter in seconds. The TNT Combi limits it's cutting capabilities. Tella 22 oil will not slow down in below 20 degrees f .
    165 Cutter, XL49 spreader, brute 16 combi, 2; 26 tele rams, and a 15 ram with extension, outlaw gas and outlaw electric, quick connect couplers were less than $46,000. You will not regret the purchase. The dealer in VA has great customer service and knowledge for YOUR system.
    Not down talking TNT I could live with TNT no problem, I just prefer Genesis more if I could choose.

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    [QUOTE=canonrescue1;1006819]You sound much more like a dealer than those you are calling out, but both of you sound pretty bitter!

    I did my own checking, and as far as Hurst low pressure goes, they are NOT compliant with the streamline, so says my local rep and his sales guy.

    Cannonrescue1 - what constitutes a "locking device" on a coupling? Nobody's coupling has a "child-protective" lock on it. Any coupling can be manipulated to release during operation. What NFPA is requiring is that it doesn't have a single direction operation. The Cejn couplings actually have a detent that holds the coupling in place.

    I can't image that if the Cejn couplings were not authorized to be NFPA compliant, then why is Genesis and Amkus now using the same coupling? I don't know...its a grey area, but not one worth arguing about.

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    hrtrescue10 - your quote "Sorry, You are 100% incorrect. NFPA does not certify anything"

    I stand corrected...how about NFPA compliant! Does that work for you?

    Even if you sell tools (and I would guess your tools are Orange, hence some of your responses), have an open mind to good ideas. Holmatro make a great line of tools, but everyone has something to offer. I would best believe that most firefighters if given the chance during an evaluation, if they could customize their best line of extrication tools would have bits and peices from each manufacturer...not just one.

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    wow, uh, that conversation was like two years ago.......and since then cejn has gotten TUV to give them a compliance stamp, and both Hurst and Genesis have done the same, but; I have yet to make a dime selling holmatro or any other tool, could you call someone for me and see if I can get some backpay! Please!

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    Quote Originally Posted by hrtrescue10 View Post
    wow, uh, that conversation was like two years ago.......and since then cejn has gotten TUV to give them a compliance stamp, and both Hurst and Genesis have done the same, but; I have yet to make a dime selling holmatro or any other tool, could you call someone for me and see if I can get some backpay! Please!
    Good one...I'll give you that one.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ellwood1 View Post
    Regarding the question as to how the hose lines will handle the added pressure of the overdrive feature. My understanding is that the overdrive shifts pump capacity to the line, in other words the pressure in the line is still 10,500 psi, but all of the pumps power and fluid is powering the one line. The effect would be faster tool operation and the tool would "build pressure faster". I may be wrong but that is how I understand the system to work.

    As far as what I think of the tool system, they are on our dept's christmas list.
    That is correct. You rob from line one and double the flow to the other line. Pressure is 10,500 either way. You don't "build" pressure faster you are increasing by 2X the FLOW of oil. Personally I've never seen a reason to do this,the late model HRT all will open and close as fast as I want them to in STANDARD drive. GENERALLY,I like to work at least two tools at once which renders the Overdrive feature USELESS to ME. They are good tools,make sure you can get service and loaners if necessary. DO Honest evaluations with other manufacturers before you make your final decision.NFPA tests in MY opinion are a joke,go see what they are cutting and compare it to a wrecked car. We evaluate by WRECKING cars and cutting them. We did,and the ultimate winner was not Genesis. And what we use should hold little bearing on what YOU buy. Just remember,you are making a LONG term investment,be FAIR in your evaluations. Happy shopping! T.C.

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    Right or wrong we have been very happy with our DEALER support on any of our equipment we operate. That is somthing I hear alot about that guys are NOT happy with how their service after the sale is. That can go a long ways in buying products as well, granted they still have to carry good products.

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    I use Genesis and I love them. We have a spreader, cutter, rams, and a combi tool from them... They work great and I prefer the "trigger" rather than Holmatro's (and other brands) twist handle.

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    Default Cuters: Stronger vs. Faster

    Quote Originally Posted by Rescue101 View Post
    That is correct. You rob from line one and double the flow to the other line. Pressure is 10,500 either way. You don't "build" pressure faster you are increasing by 2X the FLOW of oil. Personally I've never seen a reason to do this,the late model HRT all will open and close as fast as I want them to in STANDARD drive. GENERALLY,I like to work at least two tools at once which renders the Overdrive feature USELESS to ME. They are good tools,make sure you can get service and loaners if necessary. DO Honest evaluations with other manufacturers before you make your final decision.NFPA tests in MY opinion are a joke,go see what they are cutting and compare it to a wrecked car. We evaluate by WRECKING cars and cutting them. We did,and the ultimate winner was not Genesis. And what we use should hold little bearing on what YOU buy. Just remember,you are making a LONG term investment,be FAIR in your evaluations. Happy shopping! T.C.


    Based on a posts in "Cutters: Stronger vs. Faster" posted by laddercompany20 on July 9, 2009. This is what a automobile engineer advises that it will take to cut through the new steels found in today's cars.


    From laddercompany20:
    Here it is: straight from an AUTOMOBILE engineers mouth:

    In order to "get through" the high strength steel used in structural and impact zones on new automobiles, the hydraulic rescue cutters will need 3 things working in their favor- SPEED, HIGH COMPRESSIVE FORCE & GOOD BLADE DESIGN. If any of these 3 essentials are missing, the cutter will not overcome the material.

    The high strength steel is lightweight and brittle- therefore the cutter has to be FAST to fracture it, not "cut" it.

    The tool has to be STRONG and have high compressive force to overpower the material.

    The cutter also has to have a GOOD BLADE DESIGN that will start the "cut," hold the material in place, crush it, then crack it, then finish the "cut."

    Keep this in mind. This guy is pretty sharp and has NO ties to the rescue tool market...just wants to help us help the victims get out alive

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    Quote Originally Posted by GFD615 View Post
    Based on a posts in "Cutters: Stronger vs. Faster" posted by laddercompany20 on July 9, 2009. This is what a automobile engineer advises that it will take to cut through the new steels found in today's cars.


    From laddercompany20:
    Here it is: straight from an AUTOMOBILE engineers mouth:

    In order to "get through" the high strength steel used in structural and impact zones on new automobiles, the hydraulic rescue cutters will need 3 things working in their favor- SPEED, HIGH COMPRESSIVE FORCE & GOOD BLADE DESIGN. If any of these 3 essentials are missing, the cutter will not overcome the material.

    The high strength steel is lightweight and brittle- therefore the cutter has to be FAST to fracture it, not "cut" it.

    The tool has to be STRONG and have high compressive force to overpower the material.

    The cutter also has to have a GOOD BLADE DESIGN that will start the "cut," hold the material in place, crush it, then crack it, then finish the "cut."

    Keep this in mind. This guy is pretty sharp and has NO ties to the rescue tool market...just wants to help us help the victims get out alive
    Not seeing how SPEED is essential to cutting UHHS/Alloys. Blade design,ABSOLUTELY. Compressive forces with blade design,ABSOLUTELY. Speed with the above? NOT so much. My question would be IF it's a NECCESSITY to shearing UHHS;WHY is Genesis the ONLY Mfg doing it? I'm no Engineer but I've done more than my fair share of cutting vehicles and tool evaluations. SPEED was never a factor in the tool's ability to cut.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rescue101 View Post
    Not seeing how SPEED is essential to cutting UHHS/Alloys. Blade design,ABSOLUTELY. Compressive forces with blade design,ABSOLUTELY. Speed with the above? NOT so much. My question would be IF it's a NECCESSITY to shearing UHHS;WHY is Genesis the ONLY Mfg doing it? I'm no Engineer but I've done more than my fair share of cutting vehicles and tool evaluations. SPEED was never a factor in the tool's ability to cut.
    There are actually multiple tool companies now offering their versions of flow diversion valves on simo pumps allowing the the flow from both pumps to be diverted to a single tool.

    Genesis (Overdrive), Weber (Turbo), Lukas (Turbo) and TNT (Accelerator)

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    Quote Originally Posted by ejfeicht View Post
    There are actually multiple tool companies now offering their versions of flow diversion valves on simo pumps allowing the the flow from both pumps to be diverted to a single tool.

    Genesis (Overdrive), Weber (Turbo), Lukas (Turbo) and TNT (Accelerator)
    Genesis/Weber(SAME) Wasn't aware of the other two going that way. Nobody up here uses Lukas or TNT so I wasn't aware of Lukas having that ability. TNT MAY be back there in my archives somewhere. Useful info but I stand by my statements based on a lot of years around Hyd equipment(including HEAVY equipment). In Hydraulics,Speed seldom equals(means)power. Look to Excavators as a example. The more powerful the machine,the slower it goes.Think about fracturing Boron,it's concentrated pressure on a contact point that fractures it. Still not buying into the speed factor although it MAY be true.I'll have some good diamond blades around for the "uncuttable" stuff. As we are the LAST to see "new"technology vehicles,I'll let you guys play with them and learn from your trials. T.C.

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