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    Question Taxing 401-K - is that a good thing ?

    Is taxing your retirement investments the answer to our problems ? I don't know about you , but I don't see where that will help my family.

    What little we have been able to save - could be taxed - or by removing the tax exemption - will cause us to pay more taxes every year!


    Is that a good thing ?
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    I'm more concerned about the gov't abolishing 401k plans and forming a government run pension plan for all. That would just about end everybody's hopes for a sound retirement.
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    Quote Originally Posted by bfdhoser1 View Post
    Is taxing your retirement investments the answer to our problems ? I don't know about you , but I don't see where that will help my family.

    What little we have been able to save - could be taxed - or by removing the tax exemption - will cause us to pay more taxes every year!


    Is that a good thing ?
    I wouldn't look for that from either party. It is the ultimate third rail.

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    Quote Originally Posted by GeorgeWendtCFI View Post
    I'm more concerned about the gov't abolishing 401k plans and forming a government run pension plan for all. That would just about end everybody's hopes for a sound retirement.
    You mean like the defined benefit pension plan that provides a decent retirement for hundreds of thousands of police officers and firefighters throughout the country? or are you confusing it with the defined contribution plan that has been sold to employees as an alternative "pension plan". You know the kind that has elderly retirees crying on television when some jerkoff corporate raider spent 100 large on umbrella stands.

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    Quote Originally Posted by bfdhoser1 View Post
    Is taxing your retirement investments the answer to our problems ? I don't know about you , but I don't see where that will help my family.

    What little we have been able to save - could be taxed - or by removing the tax exemption - will cause us to pay more taxes every year!


    Is that a good thing ?

    Well, might be better off to a point. Just like a Roth IRA is a better investment tool for retirement than a traditional IRA in many cases. You get taxed when the money is put in to the account, not when it is taken out. The benefit? Well, you will likely be worth more, make more money, and have a higher tax rate (if you think in the long run your tax rate will not increase regardless of party control, you are wrong), you will make out more in the long run. One has to look at the forest between the trees.

    I am not for it, but I also do not contribute money to a 401(k) program for this reason. My investment is through other means that the government has opted to not tax - although some day I think that will change when we go broke within the next 20 years due to the debt burden.


    But a question for you, just for clarification. Are you asking about taxing the profit made on the 401(k) or just the initial investment made now? There is a difference. Taxing the profit made on it is akin to Capital Gains taxes, and sort of defeats the entire purpose of saving for retirement only to have 30% lopped off the top again. Then again, it is another "third rail" of politics, but I wouldn't put it past any state or local government to try it when "going broke." Instead of cutting spending, they increase revenue with new taxes and "fees" while putting "all options on the table."


    Out of curiosity who has proposed this lunacy? The answer to "our problems" is cutting spending on the bloated beaurocracy and duplicity of numerous government programs at all levels. Much good can be done by government, but when it becomes so large and unweildly that it sucks people's finances dry one needs to reassess "priorities" and streamline it. It never happens, but it needs to be done.
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    Lightbulb Just one recent article -

    Heres part of one recent article: Please don't shoot the messenger: no I am not blaming either party : just trying to see the overall logic and how this could help those who have this as a major portion of their retirement planning:




    Dems Consider Taxing 401(k)s
    By Michael P. Tremoglie, The Bulletin
    10/28/2008 link to full article :http://www.thebulletin.us/site/index...d=576361&rfi=8

    Congressional Democrats might enact legislation taxing 401(k) plans if they obtain a supermajority in Congress after the next election. They have shown an interest in revamping the current system and in eliminating the current tax exclusion from contributions.

    During the past two weeks, U.S. Rep. George Miller, D-Calif., chairman of the House Education and Labor Committee and U.S. Rep. Jim McDermott, D-Wash., chairman of the House Ways and Means Committee's Subcommittee on Income Security and Family Support have entertained proposals that would tax 401(k) plans.

    Both held hearings laying the groundwork for future legislation that could eliminate most of the $80 billion in annual tax breaks that investors receive by placing their money in the $3 trillion 401(k) system.

    The plan, which may serve as a model for this change, is by Prof. Teresa Ghilarducci, professor of economic-policy analysis at the New School for Social Research in New York. It is similar in ways to some European systems.

    "Actually there are two plans, said Prof. Ghilarducci, "a short-term one and a long-term one. As part of the bailout, I would include a provision for individuals to be able to swap their 401(k)s at its August 2008 value for special issue government bonds paying 3 percent plus inflation."
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    That has to be one of the most ridiculous ideas I have seen come out of Congress. Of course these mronic in-bred half-wits don't care, they get a pension after 12 years in office.

    This would be a death-knell in the Democrat's coffin in 2 years.

    Thankfully, like I said, I put none of my own money - just the money my employer puts in there..............They'll probably tax that too.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Geinandputitout View Post
    You mean like the defined benefit pension plan that provides a decent retirement for hundreds of thousands of police officers and firefighters throughout the country? or are you confusing it with the defined contribution plan that has been sold to employees as an alternative "pension plan". You know the kind that has elderly retirees crying on television when some jerkoff corporate raider spent 100 large on umbrella stands.
    No. I mean like Social Security. However, instead of starting from scratch, they would be starting with a pot of billions of dollars that doesn't belonig to them that they would **** away in short order. Nancy Pelosi has also endorsed "redistributing" money to people with no retirement plan.

    It's not their money. But they won't hesitate to get their hands on it if they think they can sell it to the masses.

    And, oh yeah. That's socialism.
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    Quote Originally Posted by GeorgeWendtCFI View Post
    No. I mean like Social Security. However, instead of starting from scratch, they would be starting with a pot of billions of dollars that doesn't belonig to them that they would **** away in short order. Nancy Pelosi has also endorsed "redistributing" money to people with no retirement plan.

    It's not their money. But they won't hesitate to get their hands on it if they think they can sell it to the masses.

    And, oh yeah. That's socialism.
    Are you for tossing out social security and medicare?

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    Typical lib games. I'm not playing.

    This is a debate about taxing 401K money. No one said a word about getting rid of social security or medicare. But you got nothing, so you have to obfuscate the point and deflect the argument.

    Try to focus.
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    Quote Originally Posted by GeorgeWendtCFI View Post
    And, oh yeah. That's socialism.
    Come on George, the Libs and Democrats hate it when you introduce those pesky things called facts.
    "Too many people spend money they haven't earned, to buy things they don't want, to impress people they don't like." Will Rogers

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    Quote Originally Posted by GeorgeWendtCFI View Post
    Typical lib games. I'm not playing.

    This is a debate about taxing 401K money. No one said a word about getting rid of social security or medicare. But you got nothing, so you have to obfuscate the point and deflect the argument.

    Try to focus.
    you were the one that started on the socialism crap.

    You were also the one mentioning the government taking over a pot of billions of dollars. Relax Francis.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Geinandputitout View Post
    you were the one that started on the socialism crap.

    You were also the one mentioning the government taking over a pot of billions of dollars. Relax Francis.
    I mentioned it because; a) it was directly related to what I first posted and b) it is true.
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    Quote Originally Posted by GeorgeWendtCFI View Post
    I mentioned it because; a) it was directly related to what I first posted and b) it is true.
    Yeah, one congressman with a crazy idea makes something true. Well your right, Tedd Stevens (R-Alaska) almost got that bridge built.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Geinandputitout View Post
    Yeah, one congressman with a crazy idea makes something true. Well your right, Tedd Stevens (R-Alaska) almost got that bridge built.
    There are actually two Congressional committee chairmen who held hearings on this. Nancy Pelosi has endorsed the idea. That's a little more serious than what you are leading on.
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    If this were to pass, i'm heading up to boston, dressing like a native american and looking for a boatload of tea.

    Taxing the 401k's would start a revolution in this country that might finally expose the liberals and their end game.

    They want to spread the wealth. Straight from the horse's mouth.
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    Quote Originally Posted by GeorgeWendtCFI View Post
    There are actually two Congressional committee chairmen who held hearings on this. Nancy Pelosi has endorsed the idea. That's a little more serious than what you are leading on.
    Maybe she was the crazy congressman he was referencing.
    I am now a past chief and the views, opinions, and comments are mine and mine alone. I do not speak for any department or in any official capacity. Although, they would be smart to listen to me.

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    Calm down Francis.



    Congress mulls major 401(k) changes
    By Sara Hansard
    October 7, 2008, 5:18 PM EST Post a Comment Recommend (296)


    A wide range of sweeping changes to the 401(k) system were proposed Tuesday at a hearing on how the market crisis has devastated retirement savings plans.
    Chief among them was eliminating $80 billion in tax savings for higher-income people enrolled in 401(k) retirement savings plans.

    This was suggested by the chairman of the House Committee on Education and Labor.

    “With respect to the 401(k), it appears to be a plan that is not really well-devised for the changes in the market,” Rep. George Miller, D-Calif., said.

    “We’ve invested $80 billion into subsidizing this activity,” he said, referring to tax breaks allowed for 401(k) contributions and savings.

    With savings rates going down, “what do we have to start to think about in Congress of whether or not we want to continue and invest that $80 billion for a policy that is not generating what we … say it should?” Mr. Miller said.

    Congress should let workers trade their 401(k) assets for guaranteed retirement accounts made up of government bonds, suggested Teresa Ghilarducci, an economics professor at The New School for Social Research in New York.

    When workers collected Social Security, the guaranteed retirement account would pay an inflation-adjusted annuity under her plan.

    “The way the government now encourages 401(k) plans is to spend $80 billion in tax breaks,” which goes to the highest-income earners, Ms. Ghilarducci said.

    That simply results in transferring money from taxed savings accounts to untaxed accounts, she said.

    “If we implement automatic [individual retirement accounts] or if we expand the 401(k) system, all we’re doing is adding to this inefficiency,” Ms. Ghilarducci said.

    Rep. Robert Andrews, D-N.J., raised the issue of which investment advisers are allowed to offer workers investment advice.

    The Department of Labor is considering “loopholes” that would allow advisers to offer “conflicted investment advice if the advisers work for subsidiaries of financial services companies that sell the investments,” he said.

    With American workers facing $2 trillion in losses from retirement plans over the past year and Democrats expected to gain seats in the House and the Senate, actions being contemplated by the committee are an important harbinger of what could come out of Congress next year.

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    I guess you should become really excited if you are concerned about defaulting T-Bills.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Geinandputitout View Post
    Calm down Francis.



    Congress mulls major 401(k) changes
    By Sara Hansard
    October 7, 2008, 5:18 PM EST Post a Comment Recommend (296)


    A wide range of sweeping changes to the 401(k) system were proposed Tuesday at a hearing on how the market crisis has devastated retirement savings plans.
    Chief among them was eliminating $80 billion in tax savings for higher-income people enrolled in 401(k) retirement savings plans.

    This was suggested by the chairman of the House Committee on Education and Labor.

    “With respect to the 401(k), it appears to be a plan that is not really well-devised for the changes in the market,” Rep. George Miller, D-Calif., said.

    “We’ve invested $80 billion into subsidizing this activity,” he said, referring to tax breaks allowed for 401(k) contributions and savings.

    With savings rates going down, “what do we have to start to think about in Congress of whether or not we want to continue and invest that $80 billion for a policy that is not generating what we … say it should?” Mr. Miller said.

    Congress should let workers trade their 401(k) assets for guaranteed retirement accounts made up of government bonds, suggested Teresa Ghilarducci, an economics professor at The New School for Social Research in New York.

    When workers collected Social Security, the guaranteed retirement account would pay an inflation-adjusted annuity under her plan.

    “The way the government now encourages 401(k) plans is to spend $80 billion in tax breaks,” which goes to the highest-income earners, Ms. Ghilarducci said.

    That simply results in transferring money from taxed savings accounts to untaxed accounts, she said.

    “If we implement automatic [individual retirement accounts] or if we expand the 401(k) system, all we’re doing is adding to this inefficiency,” Ms. Ghilarducci said.

    Rep. Robert Andrews, D-N.J., raised the issue of which investment advisers are allowed to offer workers investment advice.

    The Department of Labor is considering “loopholes” that would allow advisers to offer “conflicted investment advice if the advisers work for subsidiaries of financial services companies that sell the investments,” he said.

    With American workers facing $2 trillion in losses from retirement plans over the past year and Democrats expected to gain seats in the House and the Senate, actions being contemplated by the committee are an important harbinger of what could come out of Congress next year.
    You really aren't too bright are you?

    This article completely supports my point in this debate and totally debunks yours. Yet, you post it as some sort of trophy.

    Trading 401k plans for government bonds simply gives the government your cash to use as their own. This "professor" Ghilarducci has stated in interviews every chance she gets that the purpose of the plan is to redistribute..oh ait, I mean spread...the wealth.

    That is socialism. Thank you for proving my point.
    Last edited by GeorgeWendtCFI; 10-30-2008 at 07:32 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by GeorgeWendtCFI View Post
    You really aren't too bright are you?

    This article completely supports my point in this debate and totally debunks yours. Yet, you post it as some sort of trophy.

    Trading 401k plans for government bonds simply gives the government your cash to use as their own. This "professor" Ghilarducci has stated in interviews every chance she gets that the purpose of the plan is to redistribute..oh ait, I mean spread...the wealth.

    That is socialism. Thank you for proving my point.
    Go back in the undisclosed location, your making my head hurt.

    Your third grade education is hurting you as well.

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    Quote Originally Posted by GeorgeWendtCFI View Post
    You really aren't too bright are you?

    This article completely supports my point in this debate and totally debunks yours. Yet, you post it as some sort of trophy.

    Trading 401k plans for government bonds simply gives the government your cash to use as their own. This "professor" Ghilarducci has stated in interviews every chance she gets that the purpose of the plan is to redistribute..oh ait, I mean spread...the wealth.

    That is socialism. Thank you for proving my point.
    George, this guy and that half-wit economics professor, along with the equally useless California Rep (anyone really surprised that he is from CA????) think that some freaking T-Bill that pays out a whopping 4% is better than the long-term gains that are had in stock investments? These people hae a bit of rectal-cranial inversion.

    I suspect an outright overthrow of these officials would be brought to bear the next election following this asinine action.

    Rep. Miller appears to be too stupid to understand that stocks and 401(k)/457 plans are for long-term investments and in the future they will still average a FAR better return than a freaking T-Bill.

    That being said, a true planner for retirement would truly diversify their portfolio and not be completely invested in one portion of the market. Mr. Miller ought to listen to any of the variety of radio financial advising programs out there, i.e., Clark Howard, Dave Ramsey, etc., or to a freaking financial adviser. This guy is a moron.

    Geinandputitout - In case you have not been paying attention, Social Security's bills will come due in our lifetimes. It is a corrupted program that is used to fund the day-to-day operations of the Federal government, not prepare you for retirement. I can get a better long-term return on my investment in it with a simple IRA or Roth, than trust the buffoons in Washington with my money.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Geinandputitout View Post
    Your third grade education is hurting you as well.
    More insults, less factual substance to your debating points. You really do not help your cause out too much.
    "Too many people spend money they haven't earned, to buy things they don't want, to impress people they don't like." Will Rogers

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    Quote Originally Posted by Geinandputitout View Post
    I guess you should become really excited if you are concerned about defaulting T-Bills.
    This is political grandstanding, and playing on the fears of the middle class.

    The 401k is a middle class retirement fund. As a matter of fact, the low cap on the annual amount of money that can be invested in the 401k limits it's use by the wealthy. The cap is $15,500 a year.

    If you read the article closely this is merely an attempt by the democrats to INCREASE taxes. What a shock!

    They want to get at that 80 Billion in deferred taxes.

    I say deferred, because eventually you pay taxes on that 401k money (when you take it out), so it's not that these investors do not pay taxes on it, they are just allowed to hold off paying taxes on it, until they actually withdraw it from the account.

    I encourage all my employees to contribute the max. Our company even matches the first 6% contributed by the employee with an additional 3%. In addition, we put their profit sharing directly into their 401k account.

    The 401k is the only retirement plan (other than home ownership) that most of the middle class utilize.
    I am now a past chief and the views, opinions, and comments are mine and mine alone. I do not speak for any department or in any official capacity. Although, they would be smart to listen to me.

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    Wink One party rule should be fun

    Quote Originally Posted by ChiefKN View Post
    If this were to pass, i'm heading up to boston, dressing like a native american and looking for a boatload of tea.

    Taxing the 401k's would start a revolution in this country that might finally expose the liberals and their end game.

    They want to spread the wealth. Straight from the horse's mouth.

    The truth is - If they succeed - no one will "Start a Revolution" - and the only tea getting wet will be to make noon-tea!

    Anyone affected will pay more taxes.

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