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  1. #1
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    Default What is you plan for narrowbanding?

    I just got the APCO letter in the mail about narrow banding. Being that we still don't operate on this I see we are going to have a problem with a large amount of our HT1000 radios. We have just started to replace them with XTS1500 radios. Hopefully we will be able to buy some every year before the deadline in 2013.

    What is your plan?
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  2. #2
    Forum Member nmfire's Avatar
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    The MT1500 is a great radio. It is what I've been using to replace the HT1000 and MTS2000 as they break or we need more. Before you go too crazy, have you checked to see if your HT1000's can't do narrowband to begin with? There is no sense in buying all new radios if the ones you have now can do it. Your model number will look something like this: H05SDD9AA4BN. The last two are the ones you care about. Actually the N is irrelevent, it is the letter before it.

    AN = No narrowband
    BN = Narrowband but can't do the 12.5khz "splinter" channels (450.XXXX)
    CN = Narrowband but can't do the 12.5khz "splinter" channels (450.XXXX)
    DN = Narrowband and can do the 12.5khz splinter channels

    In summary, the A, B, & C revisions of the HT1000 are useless since you will eventually need those splinter channels if you don't already need them. So the important thing is to see if you have any D REVISION radios. Keep them, they will do what you need to do!

    As far as my FD, we're already there. Been there for at least 5 years now (its kindof a blur...)
    Last edited by nmfire; 11-03-2008 at 02:58 PM.
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  3. #3
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    We have the dreaded "A"

    We only went to the XTS because of the "threat" that we might have to go to the county wide dispatch. It is digital. We still would use simplex for fireground.
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  4. #4
    Forum Member nmfire's Avatar
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    I thought you said MT, oops. Same exact radio, the XTS just has the astro software. I have one of those as well... among several others. Its a great radio. Small and very capable. I've beat the hell out of it and it keeps ticking. The price is decent too.

    Thats too bad you have an A revision. 25khz paperweights.
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  5. #5
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    Good news. I found some "Ds." Do you know if the MCS2000 can do it? Model number is M01HX+725W

    I have the programing software for the HT1000's. Is that something I can change?

    The letter also said that there is a fee for all call signs te Licence list the call sign but there are 5 listed radio frequencies on it. 3 are the same.
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  6. #6
    Forum Member nmfire's Avatar
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    Try that model number again. That doesn't make sense.

    M01 _ _ 9... or M01 _ _6... will do narrowband. The 6 is 6.25khz channel spacing for VHF and the 9 is 12.5khz for UHF and VHF.

    What letter are you reading. Be VERY VERY careful. There are a lot of companies out there sending letters to people about how they need to change this and that and pay them this and that. They look very official and many people think they are the FCC or a contractor for the FCC. They are not. They are private consulting firms looking to make a fast buck. Do not fall for it.

    What is your callsign so I can look you up and see what you have to do?
    Even the burger-flippers at McDonald's probably have some McWackers.

  7. #7
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    WPLU327 that one should be fine. That is the full time gig.

    WPBY599 is the one I am working on. Well, I guess you can say they asked me to help.

    the letter seems legit. It is from APCO. It does have a sponser on the bottom but no contact info. All the website given are to APCO.
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  8. #8
    Forum Member nmfire's Avatar
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    The irony here is astounding. That town is the same name as mine. Wow, kinda freaky.

    APCO is an FCC frequency coordinator for public safety agencies. Basically, the FCC doesn't actually do any work. They sub-contract all the actual leg work to these private companies and call them the official "Frequency Coordinators". You are now forced to utilize these private companies to do all the licensing approvals and processing. With that comes a bill from the coordinator. AND, then you get a bill from the FCC too. Total racket.

    You need to do a license modification to change everything over to narrowband. Good news is that if your ONLY modification is changing the emissions designator to narrowband on everything, you are only charged $25 per callsign. http://www.spectrumwatch.com is their online licensing crap. Make an account and create a new Form 601 based on your callsign. On Schedule H, you need to change all your emmissions designators from 20K0F3E to 11K0F3E and submit it. CALL THEM AND MAKE SURE YOU'RE DOING IT RIGHT. Notice the first thing it wants a credit card. You don't' want to have to redo this.

    Now bear in mind it is only 2008. You still have five years so don't go crazy.
    Even the burger-flippers at McDonald's probably have some McWackers.

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    Kyle, Check www.batlabs.com for alot of radio info.

    Its not officially acceptable, however when you round the radios that cannot accept the frequency to the next closest one, they work almost flawlessly.

  10. #10
    Forum Member nmfire's Avatar
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    It isn't going to work flawlessly and you should NEVER do that. It will work fine for all of the radios programmed that way. A radio programmed CORRECTLY will only be receiving 1/2 of the bandwidth it is supposed. When a correctly programmed radio transmits, the incorrect ones will also only receive a mere fraction of what they are supposed to receive.

    Second of all, you are going to be illegally interfering with SOMEONE ELSE'S properly licensed channel. You will be bleeding over onto them and they will be bleeding over onto you. Unless you want the FCC's enforcement branch crawling up your *** about illegal operations and fraudulent licensing, I would do it the right way. 2013 is long time away. There is no excuse for illegal operation.
    Last edited by nmfire; 11-04-2008 at 02:32 PM.
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    What is really happening is that you are transmitting on a frequency that you are not licensed for. You may bleed into the correct frequency a bit, but the distance that the radio can be used as well as the fidelity of the audio will be severely reduced. You may also be causing inteference with another station as nmfire mentioned. Don't do it.

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    We have dozens of pagers programmed to the "rounded" frequency. They seem to work fine. I do the pager programming and this is what I was told to do by a radio shop guy.

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    Forum Member nmfire's Avatar
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    That's a pager. NOT a transmitter. Big difference.
    Even the burger-flippers at McDonald's probably have some McWackers.

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    The funny part of all of this is I work for a major Motorola parts and accessories dealer. I just don't sell the units. So some of this stuff is foreign to me.
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    Default Ht-1000

    Our County is going to narrowband within the next year to beat the deadline, so we have had a couple years of "heads up" to get ready for it. We have phased out all of our HT-1000's with the BN serial numbers (the majority left are DN's) and have added PR-1500's in their place. Also, we found the MaxTrac's weren't able to narrow band on our frequencies, so we are phasing them out and purchasing CDM-1250's. Overall, we are in a position to be compliant by 1st quarter of 2009.

  16. #16
    Forum Member nmfire's Avatar
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    If you need any help with the any of those models, let me know. I've got a lot of time programming those.
    Even the burger-flippers at McDonald's probably have some McWackers.

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    Default Range on Narrowbanding

    Everyone is addressing the radios, and that's fine. But what about the down sides of narrow banding? Something has to give when the deviation is cut in half and that's got to be range. Are you having to add RX sites to your system or are you just going to tolerate reduced coverage? As usual, the FCC comes up with a plan to save spectrum without considering the consequences. Are there going to be 'coupons' for upgrading systems to compensate for the loss of coverage in buildings? Our FD is sharing channels with plumbers in hospitals and school buses because the FCC can't be bothered to prioritize public safety communications. Let everyone use the same spectrum and, surprise surprise, there's a shortage of spectrum a few years later.

    Has anyone heard a real world number to describe what narrowbanding does to range?

    Ray

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    Quote Originally Posted by RayVaughan View Post
    Everyone is addressing the radios, and that's fine. But what about the down sides of narrow banding? Something has to give when the deviation is cut in half and that's got to be range.
    The amount of deviation affects the amount of data that can be transmitted, in the case of "analog" sound transmission, you end up with less of the audio signal going through. Most people describe narrowband as sounding tinny, and it takes a while for people to get used to it. Companding helps, but all of your radios need to have it turned on or you will get distortion.

    Brian

  19. #19
    Forum Member nmfire's Avatar
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    First of all, your FD is not sharing frequencies with plumbers and school buses. You clearly have no idea how licensing works.

    Second of all, reducing the deviation to narrowband does not reduce the range. That is the biggest bunch of hogwash floating around about narrowbanding. It is going to go just as far as it did before. The only difference is that there is less room for audio and the noise floor remains the same. So it can sound a little more noisy a little bit sooner. Thats the only difference when it comes to voice.

    The perceived loss in "range" due to that is something like 2%.... which in all practical reality is nothing. A properly designed system with narrowband will work just as well as one in wideband. Claiming all of sudden requires more infrastructure and is some unfunded mandate is non-sense. You will not all of a sudden need a remote receiver somewhere that you didn't before.
    Even the burger-flippers at McDonald's probably have some McWackers.

  20. #20
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    Default Public Safety Pool Rules

    Quote Originally Posted by nmfire View Post
    First of all, your FD is not sharing frequencies with plumbers and school buses. You clearly have no idea how licensing works.
    Actually, I do. Not sure what I did to trigger your attitude, but I'll ignore that for now just simply go into teacher mode.

    Look up 453.5250 MHz in the FCC on-line database. You'll see it's assigned to Miami Dade County and to COLLIER, COUNTY OF among many others. We use it in fire trucks, they use it in yellow school buses.

    From their license, WNAE433, their eligibility: "90.20 - SCHOOL BUS ROUTES AND MAINTENANCE"

    You might want to read this:

    http://sujan.hallikainen.org/FCC/FccRules/2007/90/20/

    You'll see buses specifically mentioned at (a) (1) (viii)
    Hospitals are listed in (a) (1) (iii) (A)

    So we are expected to share with school buses and hospital plumbers. While I don't agree with it, it's the rules we have to work under since so many groups fall under the Public Safety Pool. This I blame on the FCC.

    Ray

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