Congratulations to President-Elect Obama

[scfire86]

Actually, I believe there is no root cause. You cannot control something as complex and chaotic as the economy. To truly understand it you need to study systems and system theory. Simple feedback systems with one input and one output are difficult to analyze.

What you're really saying is you have no clue about your subject.

Because we live in a global economy we have a system with billions of inputs and billions of outputs. A single government, let alone a single entity like the president, cannot control the economy. At best they can influence it. As an example, the U.S., Mexican, and Canadian economies were all affected by NAFTA. The other 200 plus world economies felt nothing. The economy will grow and shrink, and nothing anyone does will change that.

What you're really saying is you have no clue about your subject.

The belief that the government can prevent these ups and downs is simply misguided logic. It comes form those who believe the government is all empowering. I’m reminded of a place known as Oz.

What you're really saying is you have no clue about your subject.

[txgp17]

Hey moonbat, are you now denying you believe that Obama isn't a "natural born citizen?"

What you're really saying is you have no clue about your subject. Try staying on point. You asked:

How's your quest to prove the GOP Governor of Hawaii is purposely duping all the American people going?

Show me where I ever said that the Governor of Hawaii is involved in a conspiracy. These forums are searchable to those smart enough to use the feature. But we both know you can't. The fallacy of inference is a common misstep for you. Is it intentional or are you just that obtuse? The answer gets clearer each time you click the button.

Other than not having the option of raising rates, adding charges, eliminating services and canceling policies, how is this different from corporate paper pushers making the same decisions?

Again you infer things that do not exist. I haven't promoted the present system as being flawless, nor the corporate paper pushers who work in it.

It's clear what you want, a single player system that imposes price controls and rations health care. Such is the nature of socialism, it always leads to price controls, reduced innovation and rationing, and it's failed everywhere it's been applied. William Bradford knew it in 1623, and anyone with the ability to learn from the past knows it today.

Government imposed price ceilings don't work either. A price ceiling set below the free-market price has several effects. Suppliers find they can no longer charge what they had been charging for their products. As a result, some suppliers drop out of the market. This represents a reduction in the quantity supplied.

Meanwhile, consumers find that they can now buy the same product at a lower price. As a result quantity demanded increases. As a result of these two actions, quantity demanded exceeds quantity supplied and a shortage emerges. This leads to various forms of non-price competition.

Hugo Chavez has been setting price ceilings on food, and that these price ceilings have caused shortages and hoarding.

Just look to Canada. There's a shortage of physicians there, and it's no wonder why. A university medical education takes 9 years, usually leaving new doctors with $100,000 in debt plus office rent, support staff salaries, equipment expenses, insurance and other overhead costs that devour a significant portion of their earnings. By limiting what a doctor can charge, they've effectively limited how much a doctor can earn, and in Canada, a physician might only make slightly more income than a skilled tradesman. Yet the physician puts in more hours, accepts more liability, and goes through more hurdles to reach his position.

As a result, Canada has fewer physicians per capita than many other industrialized nations. Canada has fewer CT and MRI scanners per capita than the United States does too. So what you're proposing is really less health care, not more.

Canada went so far as to make it illegal to pay out of pocket for health care provided by the government. As a result, a dog has better access to medical care in Canada than people do.

I have a friend in Boston who is a physician herself. As a result of the massive quagmire there, she had to wait almost 2 months to see a dentist.

The problem is we hide from consumers what their health care is costing them, though hiding the cost in no way relieves them of having to pay the cost. Duke University's Clark Havighurst, writes

"...the systematic hiding of health-care costs from those who pay them" gives rise to the ultimate "moral hazard," allowing politicians to spend the public's money on health care in ways the public would never choose for itself either in the marketplace or the voting booth."

Once a Health Care program ends up in a line item in the federal government budget, it leads to more controls. Then Health Care is forced to compete with other government programs like defense, infrastructure, and education.

In a single player system, politicians face the choice of whether to curb consumption or raise taxes to pay for it. That's the job description of Europe's national health systems, which are not exercises in beautiful egalitarianism but exercises in rationing for those not rich enough to jet off to a private clinic and get the treatment they seek.

You're afraid of the gov making the decision. How is this worse than having an insurance make this decision.

If I don't like the insurance company's decision, I'm free to seek out another insurance provider on my own. I can choose to buy additional insurance. I can exercise the option to vote with my dollars. In the single player system, there is no option B.

BTW, the single payer system is what is currently used for our military personnel. Are the folks fighting and dying for our freedom as capitalists being subjected to a socialist program?

For the most part, yes. But that's very different, with only a few parallels. Nice try with the Red Herring though.

When you're in the military, you are essentially government property. It's rare, but you could be court marshaled for causing intentional damage to your body. And the military screens it's personnel for medical problems in advance, meaning the vast majority of them are young, fit, and healthy. So their responsibilities mainly serve a healthy population.

I hear horror stories from Veterans of how hard it is to get an appointment at a VA hospital. And if you have to reschedule, you're SOL cause they have to wait months for another appointment. Yeah, that sounds like a plan that we should all be forced to use.

But... the military plan is optional too. If you don't like the medical care, then don't volunteer to serve, don't reenlist. You are free to choose.

Some say that is how Bush got support for the invasion of Iraq after 9/11 despite Iraq having nothing to do with 9/11.

In libtardville, where MSNBC is the only news channel allowed, that might be true. But thanks for throwing us another Red Herring. The Iraq War resolution had the support of the House and the Senate.


Plus it had the support of the Nation's of Afghanistan, Albania, Angola, Australia, Azerbaijan, Bulgaria, Colombia, Costa Rica, Czech Republic, Denmark, Dominican Republic, El Salvador, Eritrea, Estonia, Ethiopia, Georgia, Honduras, Hungary, Iceland, Italy, Japan, Kuwait, Latvia, Lithuania, Macedonia, Marshall Islands, Micronesia, Mongolia, Netherlands, Nicaragua, Palau, Panama, Philippines, Poland, Portugal, Romania, Rwanda, Singapore, Slovakia, Solomon Islands, South Korea, Spain, Tonga, Turkey, Uganda, Ukraine, United Kingdom, Uzbekistan.

The past is the best predictor of the future. In the past, Saddam Hussein possessed, and used on his own citizens, weapons of mass destruction. Liberals whine about there being no connection of Iraq to terrorism. I guess those roadside IEDs are just planting themselves there.

Mark Twain said a lot of things. By your standards he would have been socialist.

Well you've put words in everyone else's mouth. Why stop now? Take some time to put some in his too. You're trying to make Twain out to be a socialist, Reagan out to be a liberal. Next you'll argue that Jesus Christ was agnostic.

I guess my decision to accept public funds as compensation for extinguishing fires makes me a socialist too.

Red Herring, False Dilemmas, Straw Man arguments, Confusing Cause and Effect. Your repertoire of argument tactics is logically bankrupt. It's been proven before but bears repeating: You are the quintessential rich, lying, hypocritical, limousine liberal of the lowest form.

[scfire86]

What you're really saying is you have no clue about your subject. Try staying on point. You asked:Show me where I ever said that the Governor of Hawaii is involved in a conspiracy. These forums are searchable to those smart enough to use the feature.

Hey moonbat. Here's the deal. The COLB you dismiss as being incorrect uses the information that is on the birth certificate. The GOP Governor of Hawaii and her State Director of Health have both issued statements detailing their observations of Obama's birth certificate. So unless you want to admit they are both concealing there is a difference in the place of birth on Obama's birth certificate vis a vis his COLB then you are believing there is a conspiracy on the part of those two to conceal that difference. I know this rational logic won't make sense to moonbats who continue to reside in moonbatville. But at least I tried.

Government imposed price ceilings don't work either. A price ceiling set below the free-market price has several effects. Suppliers find they can no longer charge what they had been charging for their products. As a result, some suppliers drop out of the market. This represents a reduction in the quantity supplied.

Or it sometimes results in other suppliers willing to accept that rate of return. It depends on the commodity.

Meanwhile, consumers find that they can now buy the same product at a lower price. As a result quantity demanded increases. As a result of these two actions, quantity demanded exceeds quantity supplied and a shortage emerges. This leads to various forms of non-price competition.

Has that happened in the current "free market" system that is our health care industry? When did prices decrease with an increase in the quality of care delivered?

Hugo Chavez has been setting price ceilings on food, and that these price ceilings have caused shortages and hoarding.

This will matter to me when I live in Venezuela.

Just look to Canada. There's a shortage of physicians there, and it's no wonder why. A university medical education takes 9 years, usually leaving new doctors with $100,000 in debt plus office rent, support staff salaries, equipment expenses, insurance and other overhead costs that devour a significant portion of their earnings. By limiting what a doctor can charge, they've effectively limited how much a doctor can earn, and in Canada, a physician might only make slightly more income than a skilled tradesman. Yet the physician puts in more hours, accepts more liability, and goes through more hurdles to reach his position.

You should speak with some American docs about their debts incurred while being in med school. Unless they get outside funding or attend state schools with publicly subsidized tuition, the results aren't much different.

As a result, Canada has fewer physicians per capita than many other industrialized nations. Canada has fewer CT and MRI scanners per capita than the United States does too. So what you're proposing is really less health care, not more.

Canada went so far as to make it illegal to pay out of pocket for health care provided by the government. As a result, a dog has better access to medical care in Canada than people do.

Would like to hear from the Canadian brothers on this forum regarding that comment.

I have a friend in Boston who is a physician herself. As a result of the massive quagmire there, she had to wait almost 2 months to see a dentist.

I have a friend in Massachusetts who got an appointment in three days. Maybe your friend should change dentists.

The problem is we hide from consumers what their health care is costing them, though hiding the cost in no way relieves them of having to pay the cost. Duke University's Clark Havighurst, writes

"...the systematic hiding of health-care costs from those who pay them" gives rise to the ultimate "moral hazard," allowing politicians to spend the public's money on health care in ways the public would never choose for itself either in the marketplace or the voting booth."

Once a Health Care program ends up in a line item in the federal government budget, it leads to more controls. Then Health Care is forced to compete with other government programs like defense, infrastructure, and education.

How is that different than the corporate bureaucrats who currently control the health care system.

In a single player system, politicians face the choice of whether to curb consumption or raise taxes to pay for it. That's the job description of Europe's national health systems, which are not exercises in beautiful egalitarianism but exercises in rationing for those not rich enough to jet off to a private clinic and get the treatment they seek.If I don't like the insurance company's decision, I'm free to seek out another insurance provider on my own. I can choose to buy additional insurance. I can exercise the option to vote with my dollars. In the single player system, there is no option B. For the most part, yes. But that's very different, with only a few parallels. Nice try with the Red Herring though.

It's also the system utilized by our military.

When you're in the military, you are essentially government property. It's rare, but you could be court marshaled for causing intentional damage to your body. And the military screens it's personnel for medical problems in advance, meaning the vast majority of them are young, fit, and healthy. So their responsibilities mainly serve a healthy population.

And private health care providers never turn down a client for pre-existing conditions?

I hear horror stories from Veterans of how hard it is to get an appointment at a VA hospital. And if you have to reschedule, you're SOL cause they have to wait months for another appointment. Yeah, that sounds like a plan that we should all be forced to use.

That doesn't happen in the private sector health plans? Long waits or denied procedures never occur?

But... the military plan is optional too. If you don't like the medical care, then don't volunteer to serve, don't reenlist. You are free to choose.

I'm sure that's very comforting to the folks who serve our country. I'm sure they appreciate your attitude towards them while they are fighting for your freedom.

In geniusville, where MSNBC is the only news channel allowed, that might be true. The Iraq War resolution had the support of the House and the Senate.

And the GOP majority Senate Intelligence Committee issued a very scathing report criticizing the Administration for using flawed data to persuade their support for the mission.

Plus it had the support of the Nation's of Afghanistan, Albania, Angola, Australia, Azerbaijan, Bulgaria, Colombia, Costa Rica, Czech Republic, Denmark, Dominican Republic, El Salvador, Eritrea, Estonia, Ethiopia, Georgia, Honduras, Hungary, Iceland, Italy, Japan, Kuwait, Latvia, Lithuania, Macedonia, Marshall Islands, Micronesia, Mongolia, Netherlands, Nicaragua, Palau, Panama, Philippines, Poland, Portugal, Romania, Rwanda, Singapore, Slovakia, Solomon Islands, South Korea, Spain, Tonga, Turkey, Uganda, Ukraine, United Kingdom, Uzbekistan.

Which one of those nations issued resolutions prior to the war supporting a pre-emptive invasion. And thank goodness for the contributions of Eritrea, Micronesia, Mongolia, Marshall Islands, Panama, Nicaragua, Palau, Rwanda, Solomon Islands, Tonga and Uganda. We could have never done it without their support.

The past is the best predictor of the future. In the past, Saddam Hussein possessed, and used on his own citizens, weapons of mass destruction. Liberals whine about there being no connection of Iraq to terrorism. I guess those roadside IEDs are just planting themselves there.

They didn't exist in Iraq while he was in power. This is almost a convoluted argument. There was no terrorist activity in Iraq until we unseated Hussein and let the crazies take over. Another problem with that argument is he didn't have any WMD's. It would have been pretty difficult for him to use something he didn't have. But maybe in moonbatville that type of thing can occur.

Well you've put words in everyone else's mouth. Why stop now? Take some time to put some in his too. You're trying to make Twain out to be a socialist, Reagan out to be a liberal. Next you'll argue that Jesus Christ was agnostic.

Not really. I can make the case that Christ would be considered a socialist by modern conservative thinking.

I guess my decision to accept public funds as compensation for extinguishing fires makes me a socialist too.

There are some who believe that to be the case. Extreme libertarians believe that civic services such as yours should be paid through voluntary subscription fees. If you haven't paid for fire protection. Your house burns down. If you're next door and your house catches fire because of your neighbor's irresponsibility, you're SOL.

Red Herring, False Dilemmas, Straw Man arguments, Confusing Cause and Effect. Your repertoire of argument tactics is logically bankrupt. It's been proven before but bears repeating: You are the quintessential rich, lying, hypocritical, limousine liberal of the lowest form.

Thanks. There is a reason envy is a deadly sin. Sorry if I was able to make the capitalist system work for me. I guess you haven't figured that out yet.

Here's a hint. Ownership of capital is the key. Spending your capital on value losing assets (a bass boat for example) won't help you improve your station in life.

I kind of feel sorry for you moonbat. You're obviously very angry and in denial over the causes of your underachievement.

[Firegod343]

Gentlemen,

I'm not going to get involved in your political ****ing match, cuz' really.....who has that kind of time to waste?

But I do have an anecdotal comment concerning SC's request.

Would like to hear from the Canadian brothers on this forum regarding that comment.

While I'm not Canadian, my son's Pediatrician is, and he moved to the States to set up shop a number of years ago.

My son started experiencing crushing headaches when he was ten years old. An MRI showed a tumor on his pituitary called a Craniopharyngioma. While benign, it has the potential to grow and cause some major brain issues. The intial MRI was done on a Thursday, we were told the results Friday morning. The pediatrician, who was crying when he talked to my wife and I, told me he would set up all the necessary follow-ups to take care of the tumor.

That night my son had a follow-up MRI to confirm. The following Monday morning he saw an opthamologist due to the location of the tumor to the optic nerve. On Tuesday he saw an endocrinologist for blood-work. On Wednesday he met with a pediatric oncologist. On Thursday we had a follow up with the endocrinologist. On Friday we met with the Brain Surgeon, and the following Monday the tumor was removed.

Now to tie it into your request. After meeting with our pediatrician for a follow up, my wife and I mention how smooth and quick everything happened. The pediatrician told us that when he worked in Canada, similar circumstances would have taken anywhere from 6 months to a year, primarily because the tumor was benign, and did not pose an "immediate" threat. Tell that to the parents of a kid diagnosed with a brain tumor.

And to add one more thing........my wife and I are not religious, but when your doctor offers to pray for your son right after dropping the "brain tumor" bomb, you're inclined to start thinking differently.

FG

[ChiefKN]

And to add one more thing........my wife and I are not religious, but when your doctor offers to pray for your son right after dropping the "brain tumor" bomb, you're inclined to start thinking differently.

FG

Best wishes for your family, thanks for sharing that story.

[txgp17]

(cropped)
After meeting with our peditrician for a follow up, my wife and I mention how smooth and quick everything happened. The peditrician told us that when he worked in Canada, similar circumstances would have taken anywhere from 6 months to a year, primarily because the tumor was benign, and did not pose an "immediate" threat. Tell that to the parents of a kid diagnosed with a brain tumor.

And to add one more thing........my wife and I are not religious, but when your doctor offers to pray for your son right after dropping the "brain tumor" bomb, you're inclined to start thinking differently.

FG

Thank you Firegod343, I hope the best for your son and your family.

Hey moonbat. Here's the deal. The COLB you dismiss as being incorrect uses the information that is on the birth certificate.

Since the BC remains hidden, this statement remains nothing more than theory. COLBs are available to children of Hawaii citizens, even if they aren't born in Hawaii. Until the BC is revealed, his status of being "Natural Born" remains unproven. And this still ignores his attendance to a State run school in a country where you had to be a citizen to attend said school, where American law prohibited dual citizenship.

The GOP Governor of Hawaii and her State Director of Health have both issued statements detailing their observations of Obama's birth certificate.

Yet you provide no source for these alleged statements declaring Hussein's date & location of birth.

So unless you want to admit they are both concealing there is a difference in the place of birth on Obama's birth certificate vis a vis his COLB then you are believing there is a conspiracy on the part of those two to conceal that difference.

A statement based on assumptions.

But at least I tried.

And you fail. There's an established pattern here.

Or it sometimes results in other suppliers willing to accept that rate of return.

Some will, but not all. Thus a reduction in suppliers reduces the supply. Unless demand falls too, a reduction in supply causes an increase in price. You should have paid closer attention in economics classes.

It depends on the commodity.

No, it only depends on the supply and the demand.

Has that happened in the current "free market" system that is our health care industry?

It happened in Canada's system libtard. You institute those kinds of rules here and the same thing will occur.

When did prices decrease with an increase in the quality of care delivered?

I didn't say that. As a matter of fact, the term "quality" isn't found anywhere in my previous post.

But imposing a price ceiling is the surest way to degrade the quality of a good or service. Anytime you limit prices, quality will always fall. The purpose of any business is to maximize profit, to maximize the difference between revenues & costs.

If we pass laws limiting revenues, then the only option left for firms to increase profits is by decreasing costs. This means they provide lower quality and/or fewer services.

This will matter to me when I live in Venezuela.

You're trying to bring his policies over here. You can try to distance yourself all you want. You're both wearing the same flag.

You should speak with some American docs about their debts incurred while being in med school. Unless they get outside funding or attend state schools with publicly subsidized tuition, the results aren't much different.

That's exactly the point. If you mimic here what Canada has already done, you'll end up with the same results. Fewer doctors, longer waits, less quality health care.

Would like to hear from the Canadian brothers on this forum regarding that comment.

If you have seen it or read about it, then you're not paying attention. It only takes a 2 second Google search.

I have a friend in Massachusetts who got an appointment in three days. Maybe your friend should change dentists.

Or maybe your friend got an appointment with his golfing buddy who gave them special perks. Or maybe you're just making these things up to support your argument. It wouldn't be the first time.

How is that different than the corporate bureaucrats who currently control the health care system.

Corporate bureaucrats don't run our health care system. They administer the insurance that pays for the health care.

The problem is that we hide costs from the consumer. This causes them to make inefficient decisions about their health care.

And private health care providers never turn down a client for pre-existing conditions?

Never. A health care provider only makes profits by collecting revenues for services provided. If they turn away customers, there are no profits to be made.

Insurance Providers on the other hand, do turn customers away for preexisting conditions. And I can't blame them.

If a patient has a condition that requires exorbitant amounts of money to treat, why should a firm be force to accept them as a client?

If the firms chooses to accept them, why should they be forced to charge them rates comparable to more healthy people?

Why then should others who are healthy be expected to pay for their care?

I don't mind chipping in to buy essential needs for chronic conditions. But I do mind when the government wants me to fund a liver transplant for a chronically unemployed alcoholic criminal who is nothing more than a drain on productive society.

That doesn't happen in the private sector health plans? Long waits or denied procedures never occur?

You're confusing "private health care plans" with a free market system. This a poor attempt at guilt by association, when in fact, the two have little to do with each other. Do yourself a favor and study up on the subject a little more before you embarrass yourself more than you already have.

They do happen, but not nearly as prevalent as the VA system, or other known socialist systems. Under our present system, if you don't like it, you're free to call another physician, one who has time to see you. Or you can offer a higher price to outbid the competition, thereby jumping to the front of the line. Under Canada's system, such actions are prohibited by law.

I'm sure that's very comforting to the folks who serve our country. I'm sure they appreciate your attitude towards them while they are fighting for your freedom.

Take that crap and shove it sideways pinhead. I didn't criticize them, I criticized the system they operate in, just like you did here, HYPOCRITE.

And the GOP majority Senate Intelligence Committee issued a very scathing report criticizing the Administration for using flawed data to persuade their support for the mission.

Using flawed data is different than inciting fear, which is what you accuse Bush of. If you have prove that he incited fear, then I'm sure we'd all like to see it.

Which one of those nations issued resolutions prior to the war supporting a pre-emptive invasion.

The ones who were there helping us defeat the Iraqi Army. Their actions are evidence of their support for the action.

And thank goodness for the contributions of Eritrea, Micronesia, Mongolia, Marshall Islands, Panama, Nicaragua, Palau, Rwanda, Solomon Islands, Tonga and Uganda. We could have never done it without their support.

You start threads criticizing those who make fun of countries that have supported the United States, but when you make fun of other countries that support us, it's OK? HYPOCRITE.

They didn't exist in Iraq while he was in power.

There was no terrorist activity in Iraq until we unseated Hussein and let the crazies take over.

Wait a minute, you just said they didn't exist while Hussein was in power. If they didn't exist, how did they take over?

If they took over, then that means they existed before he was in power.

Terrorists aren't trained and equipped overnight.

Another problem with that argument is he didn't have any WMD's.

WTF? There is documented proof of him using them on his own people. How do you equate that to not having them? In libtardville that type of thing occurs.

Not really. I can make the case that Christ would be considered a socialist by modern conservative thinking.

By all means do it. Put up or shut up.

If you're next door and your house catches fire because of your neighbor's irresponsibility, you're SOL.

If you're next door and you paid your "subscription", then you won't have much to worry about. The point being is that people are free to choose if they want to subscribe to those services or not.

Sorry if I was able to make the capitalist system work for me. I guess you haven't figured that out yet.

You figured it out by marrying into it.

Spending your capital on value losing assets (a bass boat for example) won't help you improve your station in life.

You're obviously very angry and in denial over the causes of your underachievement.

That's OK. Run along and ask your wife to increase your allowance.

[ScareCrow57]

...And to add one more thing........my wife and I are not religious, but when your doctor offers to pray for your son right after dropping the "brain tumor" bomb, you're inclined to start thinking differently.FG

Glad to hear that all is well.

Thanks for sharing a personal experience, it would be nice to hear more of these.

[ScareCrow57]

Does anyone notice that SC and TX are very much a like with very opposing views. Honestly, I don’t even read their rambling one liners that offer no substance. The humor however is worth the price of admission.

[scfire86]

Thank you Firegod343, I hope the best for your son and your family.Since the BC remains hidden, this statement remains nothing more than theory. COLBs are available to children of Hawaii citizens, even if they aren't born in Hawaii. Until the BC is revealed, his status of being "Natural Born" remains unproven. And this still ignores his attendance to a State run school in a country where you had to be a citizen to attend said school, where American law prohibited dual citizenship. Yet you provide no source for these alleged statements declaring Hussein's date & location of birth.A statement based on assumptions.

Right here moonbat. The other problem with this one is the concept that an American citizen can be deprived of his citizenship without his consent, by a decision his parents made when he was 6 years old. Which they can't. Reasonable people will discard this sort of thing, but there is no shortage of the intellectually challenged to keep it going. Know anyone like that moonbat?

Money quote:

"Therefore, I as Director of Health for the State of Hawai‘i, along with the Registrar of Vital Statistics who has statutory authority to oversee and maintain these type of vital records, have personally seen and verified that the Hawai‘i State Department of Health has Sen. Obama’s original birth certificate on record in accordance with state policies and procedures," Fukino said.

The COLB you believe is a forgery derives its information from the original birth certificate. So unless you want to believe State Health Officials are purposely ignoring the information is inconsistent between the two, so be it. You're free to continue to believe in something that is tin foil right wingnuttery.

And you fail. There's an established pattern here.Some will, but not all. Thus a reduction in suppliers reduces the supply. Unless demand falls too, a reduction in supply causes an increase in price. You should have paid closer attention in economics classes.No, it only depends on the supply and the demand.It happened in Canada's system libtard. You institute those kinds of rules here and the same thing will occur.I didn't say that. As a matter of fact, the term "quality" isn't found anywhere in my previous post.

So you're saying that quality has increased in our health care system in accordance with the premium hikes?

But imposing a price ceiling is the surest way to degrade the quality of a good or service. Anytime you limit prices, quality will always fall. The purpose of any business is to maximize profit, to maximize the difference between revenues & costs.

Depends on the commodity. I could cite cases where that hasn't happened. Gasoline being one of them. Many commodiities don't fall into that model.

If we pass laws limiting revenues, then the only option left for firms to increase profits is by decreasing costs. This means they provide lower quality and/or fewer services.You're trying to bring his policies over here. You can try to distance yourself all you want. You're both wearing the same flag.That's exactly the point. If you mimic here what Canada has already done, you'll end up with the same results. Fewer doctors, longer waits, less quality health care.If you have seen it or read about it, then you're not paying attention. It only takes a 2 second Google search. Or maybe your friend got an appointment with his golfing buddy who gave them special perks. Or maybe you're just making these things up to support your argument. It wouldn't be the first time.Corporate bureaucrats don't run our health care system. They administer the insurance that pays for the health care.

The problem is that we hide costs from the consumer. This causes them to make inefficient decisions about their health care. Never. A health care provider only makes profits by collecting revenues for services provided. If they turn away customers, there are no profits to be made.

Not necessarily. A health care provider makes profit by collecting premiums that are in excess in the amount of treatment a customer needs.

Insurance Providers on the other hand, do turn customers away for preexisting conditions. And I can't blame them.

If a patient has a condition that requires exorbitant amounts of money to treat, why should a firm be force to accept them as a client?

Whew. Good thing you weren't born with any congenital illnesses. Let them eat cake, eh moonbat.

If the firms chooses to accept them, why should they be forced to charge them rates comparable to more healthy people?

Why then should others who are healthy be expected to pay for their care?

See above post.

I don't mind chipping in to buy essential needs for chronic conditions. But I do mind when the government wants me to fund a liver transplant for a chronically unemployed alcoholic criminal who is nothing more than a drain on productive society.You're confusing "private health care plans" with a free market system. This a poor attempt at guilt by association, when in fact, the two have little to do with each other. Do yourself a favor and study up on the subject a little more before you embarrass yourself more than you already have.

They do happen, but not nearly as prevalent as the VA system, or other known socialist systems. Under our present system, if you don't like it, you're free to call another physician, one who has time to see you. Or you can offer a higher price to outbid the competition, thereby jumping to the front of the line. Under Canada's system, such actions are prohibited by law.

You're free to call another physician that is approved by your insurance company. You do have the freedom to go outside and self insure. Hopefully you won't need anything more significant than a cold prescription. Or maybe you do have the means to pay for something like a heart transplant. If so, good for you.

Take that crap and shove it sideways pinhead. I didn't criticize them, I criticized the system they operate in, just like you did here, HYPOCRITE.Using flawed data is different than inciting fear, which is what you accuse Bush of. If you have prove that he incited fear, then I'm sure we'd all like to see it.

The Bush Administration was very strident in its rhetoric. Calling Iraq an "imminent threat" if we did not invade and depose him. Your memory must be failing you.

The ones who were there helping us defeat the Iraqi Army. Their actions are evidence of their support for the action.

And most of them are in the process or have pulled out prior to the completion of the mission. I'd say their convictions aren't as deep as you believe.

You start threads criticizing those who make fun of countries that have supported the United States, but when you make fun of other countries that support us, it's OK? HYPOCRITE.

Am I criticizing them for their involvement? More importantly, have I (like Fox News) criticized them for leaving prior to the mission completion?

Wait a minute, you just said they didn't exist while Hussein was in power. If they didn't exist, how did they take over?

Hey moonbat. You been living in a cave? They came into the country after the fall of Hussein. One of the great myths believed in moonbatville is that Hussein and Bin Laden were allies. The two hated each other. Hussein realized the threat to his own power if he allowed Al Qaeda to exist within his borders and ensured (through brutal means to be sure) they remained outside Iraq.

If they took over, then that means they existed before he was in power.

In places other than Iraq. If they were in Iraq they kept a very low profile.

Terrorists aren't trained and equipped overnight.WTF? There is documented proof of him using them on his own people. How do you equate that to not having them? In geniusville that type of thing occurs.

I'm sure your hero Bush would like to know. Even he acknowledged there were no WMD's in Iraq. Hussein did use WMD's on his own people. But he wasn't going to use them on anyone else since he didn't have any to use.

By all means do it. Put up or shut up.

Here's an example. I'm sure I could find others.

Matthew 19: 16 - 21
16 And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life?
17 And he said unto him…if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.
18 He saith unto him, Which? Jesus said, Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness.
19 Honour thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love they neighbour as thyself.
20 The young man saith unto him, All of these things have I kept from my youth up: what lack I yet?
21 Jesus said unto him, If thou wilt be perfect, go and sell that thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come follow me.

Remember. I said I could make the case. I didn't say he was a socialist. I'm sure you can figure out the difference.

If you're next door and you paid your "subscription", then you won't have much to worry about. The point being is that people are free to choose if they want to subscribe to those services or not.

If fires only affected the places of their origin that might be a valid point. You must not have fought wildland fires where the embers were the size of baseballs starting fires in homes literally miles away that caused other embers to be created. It's one of the many reasons this type of thought isn't embraced by folks other than moonbats.

You figured it out by marrying into it.That's OK. Run along and ask your wife to increase your allowance.

This is pretty funny. You probably missed the post where I told George Wendt that when I met my wife she was literally working a job that required her to say, "would you like fries with that?" We got married and she stayed home and raised the children while I supported the family. When our youngest was in school she went back to complete her education and is in a profession that pays far better than a firefighter. I'm sorry if you were forced to marry your cousin and she never got that promotion to being the lead checker at the local Piggly Wiggly. Regardless, even if I did marry someone who was more affluent than myself, can you tell me why that would be a bad thing? Should I feel guilty for having chosen someone who is intelligent and who believed in living within our means (unlike some who charged up their credit cards then went BK) and planning and investing in the future? Please explain your point here, because I believe I'm not the only one getting it.

[Firegod343]

being the lead checker at the local Piggly Wiggly.

Damn.....I haven't even thought of a Piggly Wiggly in years. They are all gone here in Washington....do they still exist?

FG

[Firegod343]

Chief KN and others,

Thanks for the sentiments. That was almost three years ago and my kid is doing great. He has to take a pill every day for the rest of his life (we call them his 'roids).

FG

[scfire86]

Damn.....I haven't even thought of a Piggly Wiggly in years. They are all gone here in Washington....do they still exist?

FG

Don't know if they exist anywhere. I just liked the way it sounded.

Chief KN and others,

Thanks for the sentiments. That was almost three years ago and my kid is doing great. He has to take a pill every day for the rest of his life (we call them his 'roids).

FG

Congrats with your son. That has to be a parents worst nightmare.

[scfire86]

Folks,

I'm calling it quits on this thread. I'll let moonbat and idiot boy have the last word.

Hopefully many of you were as entertained as I during this exchange.

[Bones42]

Folks,

I'm calling it quits on this thread. I'll let moonbat and idiot boy have the last word.

Hopefully many of you were as entertained as I during this exchange.

Thanks for providing some of that entertainment.

[BryanLoader]

Hey moonbat. Here's the deal. The COLB you dismiss as being incorrect uses the information that is on the birth certificate. The GOP Governor of Hawaii and her State Director of Health have both issued statements detailing their observations of Obama's birth certificate. So unless you want to admit they are both concealing there is a difference in the place of birth on Obama's birth certificate vis a vis his COLB then you are believing there is a conspiracy on the part of those two to conceal that difference. I know this rational logic won't make sense to moonbats who continue to reside in moonbatville. But at least I tried.



Or it sometimes results in other suppliers willing to accept that rate of return. It depends on the commodity.


Has that happened in the current "free market" system that is our health care industry? When did prices decrease with an increase in the quality of care delivered?


This will matter to me when I live in Venezuela.


You should speak with some American docs about their debts incurred while being in med school. Unless they get outside funding or attend state schools with publicly subsidized tuition, the results aren't much different.


Would like to hear from the Canadian brothers on this forum regarding that comment.


I have a friend in Massachusetts who got an appointment in three days. Maybe your friend should change dentists.


How is that different than the corporate bureaucrats who currently control the health care system.


It's also the system utilized by our military.


And private health care providers never turn down a client for pre-existing conditions?


That doesn't happen in the private sector health plans? Long waits or denied procedures never occur?


I'm sure that's very comforting to the folks who serve our country. I'm sure they appreciate your attitude towards them while they are fighting for your freedom.


And the GOP majority Senate Intelligence Committee issued a very scathing report criticizing the Administration for using flawed data to persuade their support for the mission.


Which one of those nations issued resolutions prior to the war supporting a pre-emptive invasion. And thank goodness for the contributions of Eritrea, Micronesia, Mongolia, Marshall Islands, Panama, Nicaragua, Palau, Rwanda, Solomon Islands, Tonga and Uganda. We could have never done it without their support.


They didn't exist in Iraq while he was in power. This is almost a convoluted argument. There was no terrorist activity in Iraq until we unseated Hussein and let the crazies take over. Another problem with that argument is he didn't have any WMD's. It would have been pretty difficult for him to use something he didn't have. But maybe in moonbatville that type of thing can occur.


Not really. I can make the case that Christ would be considered a socialist by modern conservative thinking.


There are some who believe that to be the case. Extreme libertarians believe that civic services such as yours should be paid through voluntary subscription fees. If you haven't paid for fire protection. Your house burns down. If you're next door and your house catches fire because of your neighbor's irresponsibility, you're SOL.


Thanks. There is a reason envy is a deadly sin. Sorry if I was able to make the capitalist system work for me. I guess you haven't figured that out yet.

Here's a hint. Ownership of capital is the key. Spending your capital on value losing assets (a bass boat for example) won't help you improve your station in life.

I kind of feel sorry for you moonbat. You're obviously very angry and in denial over the causes of your underachievement.

Actually, if anything, TXGP understates the problems in medicine in Cannada. I had a bit of discussion on another posting with ChiefKN and socialised medicine can work and does, but both the Canadian and British systems are screwed. The big problem is that even if you have the resources, you cannot purchase or go to a for profit health care provider because none are allowed. Its one of those great steps in equalisation and egalitarianism that has blown up. If you have a person of even moderate means who requires a hip replacement for example, they could wait up to a year.
The Australian system is the best I have heard of although, France, Switzerland and the Czech Republic are pretty close seconds.

As far as the other comments about President Obamas birth, give it a rest for Christs sake. He's your President and I wish him well in his endeavors. He's going to need every prayer and wish under the Sun to get America and the rest of the world out of the mess we have put ourselves in in the last 50 years.

[txgp17]

Right here moonbat.

I didn't see any quotes from the Governor, or DOH, declaring Hussein to be a "natural born citizen."

The other problem with this one is the concept that an American citizen can be deprived of his citizenship without his consent, by a decision his parents made when he was 6 years old. Which they can't.

Can you show everyone where the law substantiating this "concept" is? I'm sure that I'm not the only one who would like to see it.

And his parents can do that. But there's a defense to it, called "defense of infancy". The question is, what did he do to regain his citizenship when he realized it? History shows he has done nothing. And his (or his mother's) ignorance of the law is not an accepted defense.

Money quote:

They didn't say he was a "natural born citizen" did they?

The COLB you believe is a forgery derives its information from the original birth certificate.

You allege, with no proof to substantiate.

So you're saying that quality has increased in our health care system in accordance with the premium hikes?

Confusion is something I fear you'll never be cured of. Premiums are paid to insurance companies, not to health care providers.

Depends on the commodity. I could cite cases where that hasn't happened. Gasoline being one of them. Many commodiities don't fall into that model.

I double dog dare you to provide one example of a good or service, operating in a free market, where an price ceiling/control was imposed that was significantly lower than market prices, that didn't result in suppliers reducing their output, or some suppliers exiting the market altogether.

And you want to use gasoline? You're making my point for me. You want a pat on the back?

Just look at the 1973 oil embargo. Oil shortages weren't the problem, price controls imposed by Nixon in August 1971 were. Those price controls made selling gas in America less profitable than other countries that didn't have price controls. As a result, there was less oil available for Americans to buy, leading to rationing of gasoline and long lines. This is common knowledge in most of the world, and it's only news to the economically illiterate who reside in the libtardville zip code.

Not necessarily. A health care provider makes profit by collecting premiums that are in excess in the amount of treatment a customer needs.

No, that's how an insurance provider operates. You're trying to associate insurance companies with health care providers. Some HMO's are of coarse a hybrid, but they operator more like an insurance company than a health care provider.

An HMO is like a body shop being run by the insurance company. If my car was in a wreck, I wouldn't want it repaired there.

If you want to see a big improvement in the health insurance industry, then pass a law requiring employers to give "vouchers" to employees who would choose to purchase insurance elsewhere if the don't like the employer provided insurance plan.

Whew. Good thing you weren't born with any congenital illnesses. Let them eat cake, eh moonbat.

I didn't say I wouldn't help them. But it's completely improper to force everyone too. You're not knowing the difference is predictable.

You're free to call another physician that is approved by your insurance company.

If you're insurance company allows that. Under President Hussein's plan there is only one entity to approve it. If you fail there, you'd better get a passport & a boarding pass.

You do have the freedom to go outside and self insure.

In Canada you can't, it's prohibited by law. And under Hussein's plan, the entire "cash basis" providers are driven out, by subsidizing the single player system so heavily, the "cash basis" health care providers lose almost all their business, forcing them into the single player scheme if they intend to continue their career.

Hopefully you won't need anything more significant than a cold prescription. Or maybe you do have the means to pay for something like a heart transplant. If so, good for you.

That's called a risk. And as long as people are free to both sell and purchase insurance against that, then the problem mostly solves itself. There is nothing more efficient that than.

The Bush Administration was very strident in its rhetoric. Calling Iraq an "imminent threat" if we did not invade and depose him. Your memory must be failing you.

My memory is fine. We disposed him, and there haven't been any terrorist attacks in America since. The results are there for everyone to see.

And most of them are in the process or have pulled out prior to the completion of the mission. I'd say their convictions aren't as deep as you believe.

Wait, you didn't ask about how many stayed till the end. You asked about those supporting a pre-emptive invasion. Once again, you try to move the goal line when you're losing the argument. Those assisting us to conduct said preemptive invasion were showing resolution in support of it. There's nothing more obvious than that.

Am I criticizing them for their involvement?

You're being critical of them for a lack of effectiveness. They don't have vast Military effectiveness like America does. You choose to turn that into a punch line.

Hey moonbat. You been living in a cave? They came into the country after the fall of Hussein.

So you're saying there were no terrorists in Iraq before the preemptive invasion. I'd like to see the evidence of this, but we know that you have none.

One of the great myths believed in moonbatville is that Hussein and Bin Laden were allies.

They didn't have to be allies. "The enemy of my enemy is my friend."

If they were in Iraq they kept a very low profile.

Make up your mind. Were they there or not? Did Hussein keep them out or not? And just look at the make up of insurgents killed. Were they all foreigners? I know many are, but if our fight there brings our enemies into the place where our forces already are, then it saves us on traveling expenses.

Hussein did use WMD's on his own people. But he wasn't going to use them on anyone else since he didn't have any to use.

None were found.
"Absence of proof is not proof of absence." -William Cowper

Here's an example. I'm sure I could find others.
Matthew 19: 16 - 21
(snip)
Remember. I said I could make the case. I didn't say he was a socialist. I'm sure you can figure out the difference.

Yes, the difference is that even Jesus advocates that we have a choice. Socialism provides no allowance for the individual to choose. The government takes without asking. So, you failed at making the case that Jesus was a socialist.

If fires only affected the places of their origin that might be a valid point. You must not have fought wildland fires where the embers were the size of baseballs starting fires in homes literally miles away that caused other embers to be created. It's one of the many reasons this type of thought isn't embraced by folks other than moonbats.

No, I've never fought a wildfire like those found in CA. But I thank those libtards who build wooden homes on top of hills covered in dry vegetation in areas known for high winds, for driving the costs of home insurance for everyone else up. That's no different than libtards who build million dollar homes on the beach front, then whine because a hurricane wiped it out.

even if I did marry someone who was more affluent than myself, can you tell me why that would be a bad thing?

I'm not saying it's bad in and of itself. But if you do it and then credit yourself for being a financial genius, then it's disingenuous.

Please explain your point here, because I believe I'm not the only one getting it.

See above post. I'm getting carpal tunnel explaining things that you don't get.

I'm calling it quits on this thread.

Oh, like when you said the same thing here:

I've decided to stop responding in this thread

More lies from the libtard.