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  1. #1
    MembersZone Subscriber Pizan1's Avatar
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    Default IAFF Responds to IAFC's Position on 'Two Hatter' Issue

    The IAFF should mind their own business! When they become a real Union and start providing pensions, insurance, etc. like a "real" like IBEW, OE, etc. Then they can even have a minut chance on how to spend my off time. No one will tell me what to do on my days off especially not my Union. We will start the ole bickering ince again. I can Union firefighter fro 24 and then go be Union electrician and no says boo, but I should help my community and work there for little extra cash, pride, brotherhood, and to lend my vast amount of expiernce and leadership and I will get bashed by the IAFF. Harold I have a few bits of advise for you MIND YOUR OWN DAMN BUSINESS!!!!


    This is my opinon and mine alone, it reflects upon no one, but me, myself, and I.


  2. #2
    Forum Member BCmdepas3280's Avatar
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    Oh good a real man's man fireman.......stick to customer service....let the east coast handle the problem
    IACOJ Membership 2002
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    Mike IAFF

    The beatings will continue until the morale improves

  3. #3
    Forum Member DeputyChiefGonzo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pizan1 View Post
    The IAFF should mind their own business! When they become a real Union and start providing pensions, insurance, etc. like a "real" like IBEW, OE, etc. Then they can even have a minut chance on how to spend my off time. No one will tell me what to do on my days off especially not my Union. We will start the ole bickering ince again. I can Union firefighter fro 24 and then go be Union electrician and no says boo, but I should help my community and work there for little extra cash, pride, brotherhood, and to lend my vast amount of expiernce and leadership and I will get bashed by the IAFF. Harold I have a few bits of advise for you MIND YOUR OWN DAMN BUSINESS!!!!


    This is my opinon and mine alone, it reflects upon no one, but me, myself, and I.
    Dude... you need to see Dr. Phil about the multiple personality thing going on...

    PS: if you feel that strongly... resign from your local.
    ‎"The education of a firefighter and the continued education of a firefighter is what makes "real" firefighters. Continuous skill development is the core of progressive firefighting. We learn by doing and doing it again and again, both on the training ground and the fireground."
    Lt. Ray McCormack, FDNY

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    Forum Member FyredUp's Avatar
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    I can't believe I am going to say this but can we just not turn this into another damn flame war. No one is going to change anyone's mind here. Both sides feel they are right and that they have the moral compass to prove their view.

    Let's all calm down. let the IAff and the IAFC fire shots at each other for a couple of weeks then let business resume as usual.

  5. #5
    MembersZone Subscriber Pizan1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FyredUp View Post
    I can't believe I am going to say this but can we just not turn this into another damn flame war. No one is going to change anyone's mind here. Both sides feel they are right and that they have the moral compass to prove their view.

    Let's all calm down. let the IAff and the IAFC fire shots at each other for a couple of weeks then let business resume as usual.
    Youre right you figured out! Kudos to you! We live in America Home of the Brave, Land of the Free, Right to Free Speech. The big thing is most of the people feel the sameway I do but won't admit it. No matter what the IAFF or IAFC decides I will do what I want to do. Heck, I have even kicked it around with my cousin who is an Attorney and I might file a nice phreviosuly lawsuit like everyone else, if anyone IAFC, IAFF, or even my Local tells me I cannot two hat.
    Last edited by Pizan1; 11-09-2008 at 10:38 PM.

  6. #6
    Forum Member DeputyChiefGonzo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pizan1 View Post
    Youre right that's why I will not respond to anyone's post, but yours, you figured out! Kudos to you! We live in America Home of the Brave, Land of the Free, Right to Free Speech. The big thing is most of the people feel the sameway I do but won't admit it. No matter what the IAFF or IAFC decides I will do what I want to do. Heck, I have even kicked it around with my cousin who is an Attorney and I might file a nice phreviosuly lawsuit like everyone else, if anyone IAFC, IAFF, or even my Local tells me I cannot two hat.

    Will you sue your city/town if they say you can't do it?
    ‎"The education of a firefighter and the continued education of a firefighter is what makes "real" firefighters. Continuous skill development is the core of progressive firefighting. We learn by doing and doing it again and again, both on the training ground and the fireground."
    Lt. Ray McCormack, FDNY

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    Believe it or not the IAFF's stance on secondary employment has nothing to do with YOU. Its about us. You might get every thing you ask for in your city. My local does not. Budget cuts, Staffing cuts, Closed houses. Same **** different city. Please feel free to scab all you want but dont knock the IAFF for doing what it can to protect my job.
    Last edited by RustBeltFire; 11-08-2008 at 04:58 PM.

  8. #8
    MembersZone Subscriber Pizan1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CaptainGonzo View Post
    Will you sue your city/town if they say you can't do it?
    A little different, apples to oranges, my city pays my salary, my beneifts, and my pension, unlike my union. So, if my city says no, then I would obey their wish, however not without protest. Thanks for asking.

  9. #9
    MembersZone Subscriber Pizan1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RustBeltFire View Post
    Believe it or not the IAFF's stance on secondary employment has nothing to do with YOU. Its about us. You might get every thing you ask for in your city. My local does not. Budget cuts, Staffing cuts, Closed houses. Same **** different city. Please feel free to scab all you want but dont knock the IAFF for doing what it can to protect my job.
    I am not scabbibg and the IAFF does not protect my job, in Arizona it is a right to work state.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Pizan1 View Post
    I am not scabbibg and the IAFF does not protect my job, in Arizona it is a right to work state.
    All the more reason to not do something for free in one city and expect to get paid for it in another. What would you say if the city you worked for decieded to stop hiring full-time firefighters and only hired part-timers or vollys.

    Im sure that you would be the first one to file suit.

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    The IAFF's postion is only against volunteering in a jursidiction that is also served by firefighters belonging to an affiliate local. The IAFF has no position on working in city A and volunteering in small village B, as long as B has no IAFF local. Some locals tell their members that the IAFF is against all volunteering, which is not true.

  12. #12
    MembersZone Subscriber Pizan1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RustBeltFire View Post
    All the more reason to not do something for free in one city and expect to get paid for it in another. What would you say if the city you worked for decieded to stop hiring full-time firefighters and only hired part-timers or vollys.

    Im sure that you would be the first one to file suit.
    Again, I am I did not start this thread to challenge people beliefs and I will not post negative remarks, I am only stating what I believe is proper and if I work part time or volunteer in a department that has no full time firefighters then the IAFC and IAFF can go scratch, I will continue to do it. Firefighting was built on volunteers and there are more volunteers than paid firefighters. I also like how most of you say professional firefighters when comparing paid people to volunteers, when I can show you a lot of volunteer agencies that will run circles around us so called professional fire departments and on the other token I can show a lot of volunteer agencies that should not be allowed to operate. The person makes up whether or not you are a professional not a paycheck and certainly not a union affiliation. If what is quoted above is true, then I guess my kids should not play sports for free because they some day may take the spot of a paid "professional" athlete who is unionized and they should not do it for free for twenty years until they get the opportunity to get paid for it. I guess we should not volunteer at the food pantry bagging groceries for the under privileged because the unionized grocery store baggers should be doing it for pay and not for a sense of giving back to your community. I see and to you this is called being a “professional”? I thought I became a firefighter to help others, protect my community the one I live in and the one I work for, and to help those in need 24/7. Silly me I guess I should have strived to become a firefighter for money and the sticker I have in my rear window. Thanks for putting those priorities in place for me.

  13. #13
    MembersZone Subscriber Pizan1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by trendle View Post
    The IAFF's postion is only against volunteering in a jursidiction that is also served by firefighters belonging to an affiliate local. The IAFF has no position on working in city A and volunteering in small village B, as long as B has no IAFF local. Some locals tell their members that the IAFF is against all volunteering, which is not true.
    Nicely put, thank you for time in your post.

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    And I agree with you. The idea that a firefighter should not come to the assistance of his neighbors in his home town is against everything that the fire service is about. We aren't just paid to do a job. We serve our country at home. Being a firefighter is not just something that you do for a job, its something that you are.

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    Pizan

    First things first you need to read resolution 2 completely before blowing crap all over the place. It allows you to volunteer or work on department that isn't an affiliate local. So if you feel the need to protect your community the IAFF doesn't mind it. If you want to do it on the backs of another local well that's you gig and then you truly are scabbing.

    Secondly what are you going to do when YOUR local negotiates with the city to add in a secondary employment article. If your city agrees will your anger stop or will you be back on here saying the same thing??

    I understand that you have the right to do what you want on your days off but what happens when it affects you wages, benefits, manning, etc just like it did to a Suburban Chicago department. Their is a "wonderful expert" out there that is going around helping cities, villages and districts reduce manning and other things. He has made claims such as, you have members that live and work in areas of part-time or volunteer fd's and they trust their families to them why shouldn't this towns staff be replaced or supplemented and save $$ for the residents that way. He is from a right to work state also. Just something to think about. I also think this expert is a member of the IAFC for what its worth.

  16. #16
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    Default Here is a copy of the resolution

    Revised

    Resolution No. 2

    COMMITTEE ASSIGNMENT: Constitution & By-Laws

    Re: Secondary Employment



    WHEREAS, Article XV, Section 3 of the IAFF Constitution and By-Laws states: “Any member of the Association found working a secondary job as a paid-on-call firefighter or an employee of a public employer, nonprofit corporation, or a private contracting firm providing fire protection or emergency medical services to a city, county, municipality, or a fire protection district as a volunteer, reserve, part-time, part-paid, police officer, police reserve, or public safety officer may be subject to charges being filed against that member”; and

    WHEREAS, delegates to the 2006 IAFF Convention adopted Resolution 9, which, as revised and amended, called upon the IAFF to establish a committee comprised of IAFF Executive Board members to review the history associated with Article XV, Section 3, of the IAFF Constitution and By-Laws and its current impact, including enforcement, on our locals and our union as a whole, and directed this committee to prepare a report complete with recommendations to be presented at the 2008 IAFF Convention; and

    WHEREAS, in accordance with this resolution, General President Schaitberger appointed five IAFF Executive Board members to the Secondary Employment Committee; and

    WHEREAS, over the last two years, this committee has undertaken extensive measures to fulfill its mandate, including researching, assembling and reviewing the history of Article XV, Section 3, of the IAFF Constitution and By-Laws, which was inserted in our Constitution at the 1998 IAFF Convention; analyzing previous interpretations of this provision; collecting and reviewing misconduct charges, trial board decisions and appeals enforcing this provision; and assessing the political impact that enforcement of this provision has had on our affiliates; and

    WHEREAS, the committee also issued a survey to IAFF affiliates which asked them to provide information regarding the prevalence of secondary employment among their membership, the type of secondary work being performed, whether misconduct charges had been filed on this basis, the outcome of those charges, and their views on whether the current constitutional provision should be changed; and

    WHEREAS, the committee also received testimony from affiliate leaders regarding the issues covered in the survey; and

    WHEREAS, a number of affiliates informed the committee that the current language has been interpreted by its members as being less binding or enforceable than other constitutional misconduct provisions because it is not listed in Article XV, Section 1, which sets forth the definition of misconduct, and because it states that a member engaging in secondary employment “may” be subject to charges; and

    WHEREAS, a number of affiliates also informed the committee that their efforts to enforce the current provision have been hampered because it is poorly drafted and does not clearly set forth the type of conduct being prohibited and because it has been unevenly enforced through misconduct charges, causing members who are engaging in such misconduct to allege they are the victims of selective enforcement; and

    WHEREAS, numerous affiliates expressed strong feelings that the language of this provision should be amended to ensure clarity of intent and consistency of enforcement and to clearly prohibit IAFF members from working secondary employment as a firefighter, emergency medical services worker, public safety or law enforcement officer, or as a worker in a related service, where such job is within the work jurisdiction of any IAFF affiliate or materially erodes the conditions of work of any affiliate; and

    WHEREAS, as one of its recommendations, the committee concluded that the current constitutional provision on secondary employment should be revised to remove the word “may” from its current language; to reclassify it as a form of prohibited misconduct listed under Article XV, Section 1; and to clarify its purpose and include recommended penalties for its violation, with the intent of ensuring that it is better understood, more easily enforced, and more uniformly applied; and

    WHEREAS, the committee has reported its findings and the basis for its recommendations in a report which shall be submitted to the 2008 IAFF Convention; and

    WHEREAS, upon reviewing the committee’s findings, the IAFF Executive Board believes that the committee’s recommendations should be enacted; therefore be it

    RESOLVED, That Article XV, Section 3, of the IAFF Constitution and By-Laws shall be deleted, and that Article XV, Section 1, which sets forth misconduct prohibited by the IAFF Constitution and By-Laws, shall be amended by adding the following new subsection to the list of defined misconduct:“,N, Working a secondary job part-time, paid on call, volunteer or otherwise as a firefighter, emergency medical services worker, public safety or law enforcement officer, or as a worker in a related service, whether in the public or private sector, where such job is within the work jurisdiction of any affiliate or which adversely impacts the interests of any affiliate or the IAFF. Upon a finding of guilt of working a secondary job in violation of this subsection, it is recommended that the penalty include disqualification from holding office in any affiliate and/or expulsion from membership for the period that the misconduct persists. Charges filed for the misconduct described in this subsection shall be preferred by a member of the charged party’s local and/or a member of an adversely affected affiliate;” and be it further RESOLVED, That the IAFF shall create and maintain a database to track the experience of secondary employment among our affiliates, including the prevalence and type of such employment, the filing of charges related to such employment, and the outcome of trial boards and appeals deciding those charges; and be it further

    RESOLVED, That the IAFF shall create and, at the request of any affiliate through its District Vice President, distribute educational materials to the requesting affiliate regarding the constitutional prohibition on secondary employment, including the basis for this prohibition, and the experience of our affiliates in dealing with this issue.



    Submitted by: IAFF Executive Board

    Cost Estimate: None

    COMMITTEE RECOMMENDATION: Adopt as Revised

    CONVENTION ACTION: Adopted as Revised
    Last edited by some1979guy; 11-13-2008 at 12:01 AM. Reason: Corrected Title

  17. #17
    MembersZone Subscriber Pizan1's Avatar
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    SectorB very good points and thank you for your post. As I think I may have stated, if not I will state it here, if my local or my employer declares that an individual is not to work another FD gig then I am fine with that. There will be no anger or resentment. I understand and support that thinking 100%. I used work part time for a department and I advised the Chief if and when he started hiring career people I would walk and I held true to my word and I resigned after the District hired its first 6 full timers. The way I interpert the latest meanderings is that the IAFF does not want career firefighters who are members of the IAFF to work ANY secondary employment even if the department is not affiliated. I could be wrong and it wouldn't be the first time! I am just saying and I have been saying this for a long time, I have uncles and cousins in the FD biz and in the trades and we always get to talking union stuff and it amazes me how the IAFF feels they are "union". When I think of a union I think of the Teamsters, Operating Engineers, IBEW, etc. They provide the benefits for their due paying members. I guarantee you we all could cheaper health insurance if the IAFF took out a policy and they could provide even greater job security by providing the pension. Think about that! If my city did not have to contribute a pension fund financed by the tax payers there would be an extra $ 600,000, maybe more personnel, better staffing, etc. So, yes I take offense when a half hearted "union" tells me I cannot do something I grew up doing and got me started in the business of being a firefighter, a volunteer, POC, whatever you call in the new century.

  18. #18
    MembersZone Subscriber Pizan1's Avatar
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    Default Things that make you go Hmmm!!!!!

    It sill amazes me how fellow IAFF members will support and defend the IAFF and let the IAFF tell you how to live your life, but no one will address the main substance the IAFF is not a union, because before I was a firefighter and a member of a real union driving a truck they provided me with all my benefits, a pension, etc. The IAFF will take mine and your money and call themselves a union and an AFL-CIO supporter, yet they do nothing for you. Sure they protect your job, unless your in a right to work state and are employed by a municipality that does not recognize you as a union, but you get a nice local number and sticker for your window. I do not know seems funny to me, when IBEW, Operating Engineers, UFCW, Teamsters, NEQUA all provide their due paying members benefits. Yet the IAFF wants better staffing, safer equipment etc, etc. for its members who are paying them money, yet they do not provide cost saving benefits to the municipalities and districts where they have due paying members. Take benefits and pension contribution out of the hand of the employers and make the union provide it to you and will save a municipality with 63 career firefighters 1,000,000 dollars. Maybe we can have better staffing and better equipment??? Seems ironic to me, again just my opinion and questions that no one has the answers the IAFF or my local or Harold Cheeseburger. So, I know I will raise the ire of the "die" hard "professional" firefighters who live and die IAFF, but the bottom line they are not as good as we think they are. Becuase if they really wanted to help its membership they would provide those items that will
    directly benefit it members and the communities they serve. So, take pot shots and ridicule me all you want, but most people know I have an EXTREMELY valid and real point!

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    How are they telling you how to live your life? Im curious how much your dues were as a truck driver? Who in there right mind would want the city to stop paying their benefits and have the union who is completely supported by firefighters start paying for them.

    Boy Mr. Mayor do we have a deal for you. We as a local would like the city, whom we put our neck on the line for every day to stop paying for our medical care so that we can become a "Real Union" and pay for it ourselves. The reasoning behind this might suprise you. We would like you to use the money you save to buy a new fire truck for us. Even though we know you will use it for a new snow plow or garbage truck.

    I dont think anyone realy cares if you scab or not you just seem like a very discontent person. My local has a firm stance against secondary employment as a firefighter or emt not to "tell me how to live my life" but to do everything it can to keep scabs out of our city.

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    MembersZone Subscriber Pizan1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RustBeltFire View Post
    How are they telling you how to live your life? Im curious how much your dues were as a truck driver? Who in there right mind would want the city to stop paying their benefits and have the union who is completely supported by firefighters start paying for them.

    Boy Mr. Mayor do we have a deal for you. We as a local would like the city, whom we put our neck on the line for every day to stop paying for our medical care so that we can become a "Real Union" and pay for it ourselves. The reasoning behind this might suprise you. We would like you to use the money you save to buy a new fire truck for us. Even though we know you will use it for a new snow plow or garbage truck.

    I dont think anyone realy cares if you scab or not you just seem like a very discontent person. My local has a firm stance against secondary employment as a firefighter or emt not to "tell me how to live my life" but to do everything it can to keep scabs out of our city.
    63.66 a month which gave much better benefit package then any municipality I have ever worked for. Hmm your right Union do not provide benefits, so why does every other union and unions that have been established since 1903? Its funny you keep using the word scab, probably the same type of person who thinks you are a "professional" because you have sticker in your window and a priveledged enough to be a firefighter. Just for the record I do not hold secondary employment as a firefighter, but still does not give the IAFF and any local to tell me how to live my lfe outside of work, maybe they should tell me what church to go to, what doctor to go to, etc. This argument can go on on on on.

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