1. #1
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    Default Vehicle question - Age

    In a past grant narrative I have been discussing replacing our older of 2 engines we own. The older one is a 1974 the other one is a 1985. When discussing replacing our aged fleet in past narratives, naturally I was generally discussing the older 35 year old engine as the engine I was targeting the grant for. Does the process treat an aged fleet the same and it really doesn't matter which of these old engines I refer to?

    If we were successful in the process we would obviously be turning a new engine into our primary one. Can you replace a second out engine with a primary unit? Am I making sense?
    Thanks in advance.

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    Quote Originally Posted by fireharley View Post
    In a past grant narrative I have been discussing replacing our older of 2 engines we own. The older one is a 1974 the other one is a 1985. When discussing replacing our aged fleet in past narratives, naturally I was generally discussing the older 35 year old engine as the engine I was targeting the grant for. Does the process treat an aged fleet the same and it really doesn't matter which of these old engines I refer to?

    If we were successful in the process we would obviously be turning a new engine into our primary one. Can you replace a second out engine with a primary unit? Am I making sense?
    Thanks in advance.
    It is important within the narrative to discuss which apparatus is being replaced. The process does not treat the aged fleet the same, except for determining the average age. A 35 year old vehicle will typically have more safety problems, mechanical issues etc. than the 24 year old vehicle even though you would consider it old also. If you talk in general terms the the PR will have one lingering question: Which vehicle is being replaced? The PR will not make that determination and may score you lower for that.

    Yes, the 35 year old vehicle (second due) would be replaced with the new engine if awarded. The new unit becomes the primary and the 24 year old the second due.

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    In my opinion the two together are over 20 years old each. You could try for the 1st due piece and probably succeed. I would imagine you could replace the 2nd due with no problem though. Now a few questions you have to ask yourself: Does this engine fail the current standards for NFPA? Is it unsafe for both travel and firefighting? I can guarantee that these questions will cross the reviewer's mind. If you want give me your email and I'll send you a copy of my engine grant. We applied and are awaiting award for replacement of our 1970 primary engine. We tried for 5 years and finally got it right after I attended a Kurt Bradley seminar and got the needed skills to get the cash.

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    I have been a Grant reviewer for many sessions now, one comment above is not totally accurate. When looking at the NFPA standards, just because the unit is out of current standards, does not justify the argument for replacing. Otherwise we would have to replace everyone's trucks, every few years.
    Do a good job on your Points, Cost/benefit is very important, be complete and show us why the expenditure is worth it. On your budget, show detail, dont just lump everything into a misc. category, basically, itemize income and expense. Be creative on benefit to community, this is where most departments fail and lose points.

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    Not to steal a thread but what do you guys do with your engines that you list as unsafe in your grant? In other words how can I get rid of an unsafe pumper and get some money out of it?

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    If there isn't clear evidence that the replaced apparatus is being taken COMPLETELY out of firefighting service, then you aren't supposed to get the award! If the Federal government is giving you a bushel basket of money to replace something that's unsafe and out-dated, then it would be unsafe and out-dated elsewhere! During the Peer Review process, if the applicant indicates that they intend to keep the unsafe apparatus, or gift it elsewhere, or to sell it to another department, they loose points... You can sell it to a farm, you can sell it to a construction company, you can junk it for the scrap value, but it has to come out of firefighting service.

    There are stories of the early AFG years where the progam paid to replace the same piece of unsafe and outdated apparatus several years in a row, as it got passed around. Don't know if that's true, or just AFG Urban Legend!
    "If everyone is thinking alike, then somebody isn't thinking."

    George S. Patton

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    Quote Originally Posted by FF2510 View Post
    FF2510.......If you want give me your email and I'll send you a copy ............
    Thanks for the good info
    toirw@yahoo.com

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    Quote Originally Posted by centralfire View Post
    Not to steal a thread but what do you guys do with your engines that you list as unsafe in your grant? In other words how can I get rid of an unsafe pumper and get some money out of it?
    I believe you could also sell it outside of the US like Caribbean or Central America and South America.
    Kurt Bradley
    Public Safety Grants Consultant

    "Never Trade Skill for Luck"

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    i dont want to sell it to a fire service...i know i cant do that. I was wondering about a broker company that could part it out or do some repairs or a refurb. Not sure I would get more per pound at the scrapyard!!! What do ya think??

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    You can sell it to a broker but not another department because there are laws on the books governing what the broker can/has to do to a truck to sell it. So they tend to either scrap or fix, and in either case if it is fixed or brought up to today's standards then it is in compliance so they can sell it legally.

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    what if you have a 20 year old open rear seat custom pumper and you get a afg grant to replace, could you say you want to use is as a reserve engine and it would be rarely used only in a major fire or if other 2 engines are out of service or do you have to literally get rid of it?

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    Depends, if you said it needs to come out of service and marked the app as such then you can't keep it at all. If you didn't say it needed to be taken out of service then you don't have to.

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    I can't take credit for this because I know I read this somewhere on here before, but basically make whoever ends up with it be it a farmer, a scrap yard, a contruction company, a pig farm (they like to use the high pressure to wash all the manure out), or a broker, etc, just make sure and have them sign a document which states that it will never be used as a firefighting apparatus again and then have it witnessed or better yet, notarized.

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    Just be aware that there may be legal issues at the local level that may need to be followed when disposing of equipment. A municipal department must follow the established purchasing procedures for the community the same holds true for disposal of equipment. Typically, the equipment is declared surplus, a legal notice is published for bids to purchase, bid opening and awarding of the bid. Just make sure in the notice that bids from fire departments will not be accepted.

    Otherwise you can do what you want donate, sell, destroy etc.

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    Quote Originally Posted by FF2510 View Post
    In my opinion the two together are over 20 years old each. You could try for the 1st due piece and probably succeed. I would imagine you could replace the 2nd due with no problem though. Now a few questions you have to ask yourself: Does this engine fail the current standards for NFPA? Is it unsafe for both travel and firefighting? I can guarantee that these questions will cross the reviewer's mind. If you want give me your email and I'll send you a copy of my engine grant. We applied and are awaiting award for replacement of our 1970 primary engine. We tried for 5 years and finally got it right after I attended a Kurt Bradley seminar and got the needed skills to get the cash.
    I apologize I should have been cleaer on the standards comment you are right USS what you have to look at when regarding the standard is why doesn't it meet the current standard(open cab or 3 sided open cab, FF's riding the tailboard)

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