1. #26
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    ffnukkie1617's Avatar
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    Post additional information

    I found this info on USFA's website. They don't go in depth as I would like to see but it's a start. Link included for those that are interested...

    "Motor Vehicle Collisions (MVCs)Since 1984, MVCs have accounted for between 20 and 25 percent of firefighter fatalities annually. One quarter of firefighters who died in MVCs were killed in private/personally owned vehicles (POVs). Following POVs, the apparatus most often involved in fatal collisions were tankers, engines/pumpers, and airplanes. More firefighters are killed in tanker collisions than in engines and ladders combined.

    About 27 percent of fatalities killed in MVCs were ejected from the vehicle at the time of the collision; only 21 percent of firefighters were reportedly wearing their seatbelts prior to the collision."

    http://www.usfa.dhs.gov/fireservice/...s/history.shtm

    That last part is a bit scary!! You'd think after everything we see, we'd be the first to put the belts on!! yikes!

    I'd like to see this portion of the sttistics broken down a bit more.

    ~ffnukkie

  2. #27
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    Here's a few questions on a topic not thought of often.....

    1. How many Vollies here have advised their personal vehicle liability insurance carrier that they are a volunteer firefighter and use their vehicle for response purposes?

    2. How many Vollies here have checked into whether or not their organization will cover their liability, damages, injury and other coverage for members involved in an accident while responding? What about other persons they may (god forbid) injure while responding? Is the coverage sufficient? How about for your vehicle if you are not in it, like say parked at an accident scene?

    3. If your organization will not cover you while responding to the station, will your personal carrier cover you? Is the coverage sufficient?

    4. If you operate a new vehicle, and you have installed lights or sirens, does it void your new vehicle warranty?

    I know of three situations regarding the above questions.
    1. A friends personal liability coverage was cancelled by his carrier when they found out he used the vehicle for emergency responses. It was within their rights and there was nothing he could do about it.

    2. Another case I know of, where the responder's vehicle was destroyed when struck by another vehicle. It was parked along a highway while the Department was operating at a brush fire. Department's carrier refused to pay for both vehicles (other operator was not injured.) Personal carrier would not pay. There were issues regarding who was at fault (the hitter for not paying attention or the hittee for illegally parking) however in the end the Volly was stuck with the tab for his own vehicle.

    3. Another friend who installed a strobe bar and tail lamp/headlight strobes himself had his electrical warranty voided. He took the vehicle in for a recall issue (not related to electrical) and when he picked it up, he was advised by the service department that the electrical warranty was now voided due to "Un-authorized modification of the electrical system."

    Kind of makes you sit back and go "Hmmmmmmmm....."

    And when members of my own Department ask me why I refuse to use blue lights.......I bring up these issues.
    "Loyalty Above all Else. Except Honor."

  3. #28
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    Post Good points

    FWDbuff...

    All very good points. In my personal situation, I have brought this up to my carrier on a few occasions, and have been told repeatedly that I am covered under my policy. Our department carrier considers all personnel "on duty" once the page goes off and covers as such. In this case, there would be a coordination of benefits so what one doesn't pay the other would. As for the warranty, personally not concerned, but a good point. My car goes to service (and semi-annual inspections) at the local GM dealer and have not been made aware of any issues with my install. One of the guys in fact liked the work I did.

    Being in the insurance industry for my normal paying job, I can understand why insurance companies make the decisions as you described. Many times it will come down to who's at fault and the police report. That's where lights and sirens DO NOT protect people from liability in an accident (and some people just don't seem to understand that). Any statue that I've read for my state clearly dictates "use with due regard." In fact, there was recently a story where a deputy was charged with vehicular manslaughter for striking someone while running code 3. I believe he was convicded because he was not operating with "Due Regard" for the safety of other around him.

  4. #29
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    Good Points so far, heres a fact the sorce is a old VFIS Driver Training Video. The one that features Michale Monticalvo.(i think i spelled it wrong) It states that when going to a emergency call code 3 it is said that you only gain 40 seconds of your lost time. Know to get to our policys to see if anyone aggrees with them.
    In the State of Florida, a Volunteer may have no more than two read lights.
    (above is the simple version of the law)
    However, before they are granted to have the two red lights. they have to complete a EVOC Class both book work and driver course. plus practical drive time on the department vehicles. WE ARE NOT ALLOWED BY LAW TO HAVE A SIREN. If a volunteer speeds or drives without due regaurd in there POV a law enforcement officer is allowed to pull them over NO MATTER WHAT KIND OF CALL IT IS. In a marked vehivle they can pull you over code 3 or not..but they wont do that unless your being entirley stupid. You also have to be written a permit for your red light by your chief..Its just a curtiousy light. However. We have to obey all traffic laws and stop at all red lights and wait for it to turn green (this is in our POV's) in a department vehicle, we are allowed to do 10 over, procede with extreme caution (VERY slowly) Through intersections. Or go down the wrong side of the road if it is clear. (PER our Chief this is only to be done as a last resort.) oh..and we cant go down the wrong side of the road in our POV. But in the place of a siren we are allowed to have a electrionic air horn (but only that) on our POV.

    Serving since April 8th 2008, just started driving about a month or two ago.

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    Default Wow......You guys really missed a lot

    You guys are so wrong on firefighters being killed in Pov's. The 20 to 25% you keep showing is includes all Crashes.

    So I know you guys know the whole story.

    Firefighter is killed when responding in his POV..Tree fell on his Pov when he got in his Pov in his driveway.

    Junior firefighter killed in an intersection on his peddle bike responding to the department.

    How many firefighters were killed in their Pov due to a heart attack when responding or returning.

    Before you drop numbers like 20 to 25% you should really take the time and break it down.

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    Default here are the facts

    2005 Vehicle Crashes
    Twenty-three firefighters died while responding to or returning from emergency incidents in 2005. Nineteen firefighters died while responding to emergency incidents, and four died while returning from emergencies.

    Four firefighters died while returning from incidents:
    Nineteen firefighters were killed while responding to incidents:
    Four firefighters were killed in crashes that involved fire department tankers (tenders) during response:
    Four firefighters became ill before they were able to leave their homes after being dispatched to emergencies. One of the deaths occurred in Maryland, one in Kentucky, and the other two in Pennsylvania. One was due to a pulmonary embolism and three were due to heart attacks.
    Three firefighters were killed in crashes involving their personal vehicles while responding to incidents:
    Three firefighters experienced heart attacks while responding. In one case, the firefighter was driving his personal vehicle. In the other two cases, the firefighter was driving fire apparatus.
    A Texas firefighter was killed when he fell from a ladder truck as it turned during a response. The firefighter struck his head and died 2 days later.

  7. #32
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    Default here are the facts

    2006 Vehicle Crashes
    After stress or overexertion, the perennial cause of fatal injury resulting in the most firefighter fatalities is vehicle crashes. In many cases, these deaths appear to have been preventable (Figure 10).
    • Nineteen firefighters were killed in 2006 as a result of vehicle crashes.
    • Eight of these deaths occurred in three aircraft crashes.
    • Eleven firefighters were killed in nonaircraft vehicle crashes:
    – Five crashes involved water tenders.
    – Five crashes involved the firefighter’s personal vehicle.
    – One crash involved a fire department pickup truck.
    • No seatbelt was used in three of the four cases where seatbelts were available and the status of their use is known.

  8. #33
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    Default here are the facts

    2007 Vehicle Crashes
    Twenty-six firefighters died while responding to or returning from emergency incidents in 2007: 24 while responding to an emergency incident, and 2 while returning from an emergency.

    Ten firefighters were killed in crashes that involved personal vehicles, nine while responding and one while returning from an emergency:

    • Eight firefighters were killed in crashes that involved their personal vehicles while responding to an incident. In seven of the eight fatalities, the firefighter was not wearing a seatbelt. In six of the eight personal vehicle crashes while responding, excessive speed was citied as a factor in the crash.
    • A North Carolina fire officer crashed while operating a motorcycle and returning from a motor vehicle crash. A Michigan firefighter was killed when a tree fell onto his personal vehicle as he responded to an incident.

    Six firefighters suffered heart attacks and one firefighter suffered a cerebrovascular accident (CVA) while responding to an incident or returning from an incident. Heart attacks or CVAs occurred as firefighters began their response from home, while at the fire station preparing to respond, while driving or as a passenger in an emergency vehicle, and while returning from an incident.

  9. #34
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    Default here are the facts

    2008 Vehicle Crashes
    After stress or overexertion, the perennial cause of fatal injury resulting in the most firefighter fatalities is vehicle crashes. Twenty-eight firefighters were killed in 2008 as a result of vehicle crashes. Fourteen of these deaths occurred in an aircraft crash, up from just one such fatality in 2007. Fourteen firefighters were killed in non aircraft vehicle crashes.
    • Eight of the non aircraft crashes involved the firefighter’s personal vehicle. One death occurred while performing scene safety at a MVA on an Interstate (struck by a semi tractor-trailer); one motorcycle crash occurred while the firefighter was on fire department business; six deaths occurred while the firefighters were responding to an incident.
    • Two crashes and two deaths involved a fire department tanker (tender).
    • Four crashes and four deaths involved three engines and an ambulance.
    • In all 14 of the non aircraft vehicle crashes, the firefighter killed was operating the vehicle. No seatbelt was used in 8 of the 11 cases where seatbelts were available and the status of their use was known. Of the eight drivers not wearing seatbelts, six were fully ejected from their vehicles. In two crashes, the status of seatbelt use is unknown or not reported (non applicable for motorcycles).

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    Default here are the facts

    Deaths Caused by Stress or Overexertion

    Year Number Percent of Fatalities
    2005 62 53.9
    2004 66 56.4
    2003 51 45.9
    2002 38 38
    2001 43 40.9
    2000 46 44.6
    1999 56 49.5
    1998 43 46.2
    1997 41 41
    1996 46 46.4
    1995 49 48
    1994 36 34.2

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    whatever, have fun with your whacker mobile then.

  12. #37
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    miraroadvol: OK, so please indicate which peoples sons, daughters, husbands, wifes, parent, etc we should let kill themselves for not addressing an issue we know exists? Is one firefighter dead enough to stop a dangerous practice?

    Many other factors cause LODD's but few of them are so easy to get a handle on, an we are trying those too. Physical fitness and medical health? Nearly unsurmountable in a predominantly volunteer land. Killed on the fireground? We've yet to eliminate all risks or be blessed with proper staffing that will truly reduce our risks.

    Please tell us what the benefits are of allowing POV's to use lights and sirens or just lights even? Also, let's see the numbers for innocent civilians killed or injured by POV's responding with lights? Here we are in today's modern fire service applying the "risk/reward model" to a common issue and finding that the risks far exceeds the rewards, please tell us the flaws in this.

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    In Iowa, a blue light (and optional white for EMS) is intended for use only as a courtesy light. We're still required to follow all appropriate traffic regulations.

    I have a Dual Talon in my car, and I use it only if the situation is dire (CPR in progress, working structure fire, etc). Luckily, I don't have any stoplights between me and the station (about 3 miles away), and drivers are usually pretty good about pulling over. Our chief is very adamant though that anyone caught abusing the privilege (we've had a couple incidents where members got read the riot act from a state trooper or sheriff's deputy after driving like a jackass) will have their light permit yanked or even face suspension/termination.

  14. #39
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    Post There are benifits to POV Response

    I do not think there are benefits in a city with combo departments for volunteers to run emergent in their POV. If you live in a city that has a paid department with 5 min response times, then the risk is far too great and the statistics are stacked against POV use. HOWEVER, for departments that are all volunteer and have huge response areas, POV response is kind of a necessity not necessarily a choice, as people in the community still expect good fire service.

    For example, I was a member of a small department that was inside a canyon area. There is a single main road that lets you get from point A, to point B. We covered 20 miles of that road. Of course there is some other roads that come off of the main that go to different developments, parks, 4x4 trails etc.... The area is unique because the road is 1 of very few gateways to a tourist town higher up, as well as a national park, which created a ton of traffic. There is 4 areas that rock climbers love to climb at, there is lots of wild land urban interface, and a river runs down with the main road that gets a ton of kayak traffic, tubers, and people who think their car is a boat...

    Call volume however was still low at 150 calls a year, so there is no paid department, however the volunteers are well trained, maintain multiple firefighter I, II, EMT and hazmat certs and attend area specific training weekly.
    Now on a weekend summer day, when traffic is high, lots of people are climbing, and when most volunteers are available, is generally when calls happen. However, if the call is for a car crash on the highway, there is a very good chance that there is only 1 way traffic, and that the accident is between the station and a volunteers home. This is when a Light and Siren on POVs help. if they did not have it, response time would be SIGNIFICANTLY greater because they would be stuck in the backup traffic from the accident with no way around it. Lights and siren in this area doesn't allow these firefighters to go fast, just get traffic to pull to the shoulder and allow them to creep down the highway. I can honestly say, this drastically decreases response time.
    When there is a rock climbing incident, it takes a good amount of emergent response time to get where the climbers usually fall as most of the time they are near the top of the district. Which means a volunteer responding from the bottom of the district, and who is very much needed on scene for manpower, needs to get there ASAP. By the time this volunteer gets to the station in the middle of the district there is usually a tender left in the station, the other 2 trucks are already being responded in. Should he take the tender (which is also dangerous to take apparently) or take his POV? and if he takes his POV, it better be lit up or he/she will for sure be stuck behind a slow moving RV doing 15 under the speed limit increasing his response time by at least 10 min to where he has to go for the climber. This slow moving traffic happens all the time.
    Another benefit is when we would arrive at a medical call in a POV. A warning light on top gives the caller a sense of not only authority, but relief someone is there.
    Many volunteers on this department, including myself when I was there, keep a BLS med kit and o2 thank with them in their vehicle which is great when the call is between them and the station.

    My opinion, some departments don’t need it, some have to have it. The statistics are shown from places that have paid departments, smaller coverage’s, multiple ways to get to a call and being able to travel the posted speed limit, and yes, lights and siren on a POV may only save you 30 seconds in these areas and I agree the risk to benefit is too great (But I would also say, then why do we run hot with fire trucks). But don’t forget about the amount of departments and communities who rely on vollies to get the job done, who still want quick and good fire service, and where lights and siren consistently save 5-10 precious minutes off response time due to being able to move around slow moving traffic not necessarily having the ability to travel at higher then posted speeds. Regulation and training to this issue is key.
    Patrick - Former Fire fighter.
    WIRED HDH

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