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    Question Nov 08 Firehouse Mag. Article "POV's Kill"

    Just to throw the though out there to see if anyone else would agree, Mike Wilbur wrote an article for Firehouse Magazine (Nov 08) EV Ops section titled "Warning: POV's Kill". It seems to me that maybe that should be titled "Warning: POV Drivers Kill". Not to get into symantics here, but a vehicle never killed anyone. It's usually been the immature, reckless, untrained, or irresponsible drivers of the POV that cause the accident that kills someone. Two of the Three examples given were of FF's age 25 and under (one being a cadet!!). I don't know the statistics, but I would venture a guess that a majority of POV deaths occur when the driver is 25 or younger. (post legitimate stats if you have 'em)

    I've seen and heard A LOT of debate on POV responses and POV light and siren authorizations, but no one EVER seems to get to the root of the problem; the guy behind the wheel. I can understand that it might be hard to determine an individual's level of responsibility; however, age, training, and driving history should be a MAJOR deciding factor. I'll even admit the way I drove my POV when I was 24 is vastly different than today. Simply put...I've matured.

    So, instead of claiming POV's Kill or Light and Sirens are bad for POV because people die in accident, let's look at the solution and create better guidelines (or even laws).

    For example Under 25, not state certified, not driver/operator certified, and/or haven't taken an EVOC course...no lights and sirens. When responding to the station or scene without light and siren, obey traffic laws...AND ENFORCE IT at the department level! If that doesn't work, have your local PD write up a warning or even a ticket with appropriate evidence or written statement by a complainant. Do a better job of background checks and DL checks on applicants. If an applicant to your department has a history of speeding, what do you think will happen when he/she is responding for the fire department. Or, to go WAY out on a limb, perhapse ALL members of a department should be required to take an EVOC course within a given time after employment, then make EVOC a part of your deparments regular training cycle so your members are fresh on the topic.

    I'm sure there will be some wildly varying opinions on this (including some that won't like my thoughts) but I'm curious to see what other people in the service think. Don't hesitate to put your rank and years of service on your post either. Me, Senior FF, 8 years.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ffnukkie1617 View Post
    Just to throw the though out there to see if anyone else would agree, Mike Wilbur wrote an article for Firehouse Magazine (Nov 08) EV Ops section titled "Warning: POV's Kill". It seems to me that maybe that should be titled "Warning: POV Drivers Kill". Not to get into symantics here, but a vehicle never killed anyone. It's usually been the immature, reckless, untrained, or irresponsible drivers of the POV that cause the accident that kills someone. Two of the Three examples given were of FF's age 25 and under (one being a cadet!!). I don't know the statistics, but I would venture a guess that a majority of POV deaths occur when the driver is 25 or younger. (post legitimate stats if you have 'em)

    I've seen and heard A LOT of debate on POV responses and POV light and siren authorizations, but no one EVER seems to get to the root of the problem; the guy behind the wheel. I can understand that it might be hard to determine an individual's level of responsibility; however, age, training, and driving history should be a MAJOR deciding factor. I'll even admit the way I drove my POV when I was 24 is vastly different than today. Simply put...I've matured.

    So, instead of claiming POV's Kill or Light and Sirens are bad for POV because people die in accident, let's look at the solution and create better guidelines (or even laws).

    For example Under 25, not state certified, not driver/operator certified, and/or haven't taken an EVOC course...no lights and sirens. When responding to the station or scene without light and siren, obey traffic laws...AND ENFORCE IT at the department level! If that doesn't work, have your local PD write up a warning or even a ticket with appropriate evidence or written statement by a complainant. Do a better job of background checks and DL checks on applicants. If an applicant to your department has a history of speeding, what do you think will happen when he/she is responding for the fire department. Or, to go WAY out on a limb, perhapse ALL members of a department should be required to take an EVOC course within a given time after employment, then make EVOC a part of your deparments regular training cycle so your members are fresh on the topic.

    I'm sure there will be some wildly varying opinions on this (including some that won't like my thoughts) but I'm curious to see what other people in the service think. Don't hesitate to put your rank and years of service on your post either. Me, Senior FF, 8 years.

    We require all of our people to have CEVO training. They also are required to have minimum of fire and/or ems certifications before responding code 3. Everyone gets background checks done prior to hiring and annual checks by the city/insurance company.
    The comments made by me are my opinions only. They DO NOT reflect the opinions of my employer(s). If you have an issue with something I may say, take it up with me, either by posting in the forums, emailing me through my profile, or PMing me through my profile.
    We are all adults so there is no need to act like a child........
    IACOJ

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    Red face Accidents

    Years ago I watched a program on 20-20 about a company in Phoenix that made a living investigating accidents like a crane failure or a truck accident. They spend most of the show on how they investigate and the technology used etc. But at the end of the show the President of the company said:

    85% of all accidents are operator error under a stress situation!

    A fire truck is an accident waiting to happen! So Train, Train, Train and Test, Test ,Test those driver operators.

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    Exclamation Just Say No to Red Lights

    I think it's about risk minimization. As a FD officer I can control the personnel driving the apparatus I'm in. I can also ensure that "problem driver's" don't drive until we feel confident they're safe to do so. We have little control over POV responses. We're not in the right hand seat of Johnny's S10 pick-up to tell him to slow down on the way to the grass fire.

    The proof in why most POV's don't need red lights (or any color) is in they very limited effectiveness vs. their huge liability. Years ago I followed one our our ambulances to the hospital (4 miles away). They ran code three, I went "cold". We travelled through 6 lighted intersections, not all red, not all green. They arrived long enough ahead of me to sign off at the ED doors as I arrived at the campus entrance .2 of a mile. At that point I was sold that "hot" runs make up a very limited amount of time vs. normal traffic. Today with my Garmin, I can try and beat the posted speed system it uses to predict my arrival time some 50 miles away only to gain 1 to 2 minutes in 50 miles. And in my unmarked POV likely I drive faster than we allow code three apparatus to drive. Do the math, code three saves some time, obviously traffic can be a large factor. But when you have no implicit "right of way" when using just a warning light, you will lose most of the gain and cause more confusion and irritation to civilian drivers.

    Risk:
    1. drivers are confused when they suddenly notice a red light approaching them, what do they do? What if they're in an intersection? If they get hit, who's at fault?
    2. People that feel they "need" red lights tend to be the ones who should least have them. The proof is in the statistics. Dead kids. Never mind the civilians.
    3. When you allow a person to run a redlight in their POV you are in essence making their POV one of your emergency vehicles albeit and "unauthorized" emergency vehicle. You're saying to them, yes you can use your POV to drive to my incident or FD visibly identifying yourself as my employee. Do you inspect their vehicles? We inspect our FD vehicles. How are the brakes in Johnny's S10? Is the frost off the windows? Is he wearing his seatbelt? Does he drive safely? Far too many things are not in your control.

    We kill too many brothers and sister period. This is a segment we can control much better. Losing the POV lights and requiring rules of the road responses would be a good start.

    Really look no further than the math! Get a GPS and find what the average speed of an average response trip is for your Code Three apparatus, then measure the average speed of the same trip going cold. Given the technology, we can all be rocket scientists!

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    Quote Originally Posted by ffnukkie1617 View Post
    Just to throw the though out there to see if anyone else would agree, Mike Wilbur wrote an article for Firehouse Magazine (Nov 08) EV Ops section titled "Warning: POV's Kill". It seems to me that maybe that should be titled "Warning: POV Drivers Kill".

    So, instead of claiming POV's Kill or Light and Sirens are bad for POV because people die in accident, let's look at the solution and create better guidelines (or even laws).
    The problem is how do you make a FD have rules and enforce them. My FD has them and we enforce them, but that doesn't stop the FD next door from allowing these bad practices from happening. The FD is only as good as it's personnel and the rules are only as good as their administration.

    I have the great fortune to have Mike Wilbur sitting at my day room table right now! No joke, he's eating a Wasses hotdog (for you TC!). This is his passion and has become ours as well as we try to do as much as we can to send our personnel home after every run in better shape than when they arrived. Better in that they had a good run or spent sometime yucking it up after.

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    Quote Originally Posted by RFDACM02 View Post
    The problem is how do you make a FD have rules and enforce them. My FD has them and we enforce them, but that doesn't stop the FD next door from allowing these bad practices from happening. The FD is only as good as it's personnel and the rules are only as good as their administration.
    And that's what I'm kind of getting at here. I believe that there could be more oversight in this area. I don't claim to know how everything works, but I would like to think that if your department does follow strict guidelines, and the next department doesn't; perhaps some pressure is needed on that cheif. If there is a local cheifs association, use that to put pressure on the "offending" department.

    I guess, in a "perfect world", we wouldn't even have to write articles like Mike's because there would already be a program or system in place to prevent that type of stuff from happening.

    If Mike is still there, tell him it was a good article with a lot that can be "taken home" and taught to everyone in my department. What I'm looking for is getting to the root of the problem, being the rules and enforcement there of, and not just blaming the use of POV or the idea of POVs.


    Also to clarify an earlier post you had, every state is different in their POV laws. In Wisconsin, any approved firefighter (volly, POC, full time approved by the cheif in writting) is allowed to operate red(red/white) lights and siren. When operating with siren, POVs are considered an authorized emergency vehicle by law and afforded the same rules as such. I belive Ohio and Nebraska is similar. Illinois, Indiana, and Iowa, only allow a Blue courtesy light, not providing "Auth Veh" status. Minnesota = Nothing. Every state law however, provides NO protection for the individual operating an authorized emergency vehicle when not operating with DUE REGARD for the safety of everyone around them. In fact, an officer from this area just went to jail for a year for killing someone responding to a call "Code 3" He was estimated 55 in a 25 (downtown city setting). The DUE REGARD part seem to be the part that everyone forgets about. When I operate "code 3", I come to a complete stop at intersections, and normally don't go 10 above the speed limit. I also record my responses so I can review my driving actions and learn from what I do.

    On another point you had, no, my department does not inspect my vehicle, but I would expect that they would if I am considered an authorized emer. vehicle. I know of departments that do (shelbyville ky?). I'm currently charged with organizing/writing our departments SOP and this is a condition of light and siren authorizations that I intend to put in as I feel it's a vital part of that privledge.

    I like the conversation so far. I hope others will continue to join as well.

    Thank you

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    Post For additional thought...

    It seems to me that everyone is quick to blame something/someone, but no one every seems to want to come up with a solution for the problem that works for everyone. Unfortunately (for this purpose), a majority of the FD's in the USA are volly staffed whcih means POV use will ALWAYS be around.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ffnukkie1617 View Post
    It seems to me that everyone is quick to blame something/someone, but no one every seems to want to come up with a solution for the problem that works for everyone. Unfortunately (for this purpose), a majority of the FD's in the USA are volly staffed whcih means POV use will ALWAYS be around.
    I think we agree that POV's are permanent, but maybe disagree on the use of emergency lights and audibles for the masses.

    It sounds like you're in an area or at least a FD that takes this stuff as seriously as they should. I'd not heard of any state recently that allowed volunteer firefighters to have lights and sirens and therefore made their vehicles "authorized emergency vehicle". That is a large responsibility that hopefully chiefs and firefighters fully understand. In my state, the only POV's allowed emergency vehicle status are chief officers and EMS service chief's vehicles. We've seen that this too can be and is abused. Great video on Youtube of one of our (not my FD) illustrious chief's making a long run code three with his dash cam. Not too smart, I believe he was suspended by his town council.

    I agree this is a healthy and respectful thread and more input and discussion is warranted. After 23 years of doing this stuff at all levels (vol. FF, vol. A/C, career FF and A/C) I have grown to to be less trusting of people to "do the right thing". I think the statistics prove that even after years of preaching driver safety at all levels, there are still just as many firefighters dying in POV crashes. To me this shows that the only real chance at reducing this is to take away some of the privileges (real or imagined) of those driving POVs. As I said earlier I was surprised to learn how slow the average speed of a vehicle traveling even 20 miles on a 50 MPH road really was. The starts and stops and slower areas cut into the overall average significantly. Therefore IMO, a small reduction in overall speed and fully stopping for STOP signs, red lights and traffic has too little benefit as opposed to the risk.

    I will mention your kind words to Mike and I know he always appreciates that people read his articles and discuss them, whether or not they fully agree. I know his standard line is "OK, maybe I'm wrong, tell me your idea to reduce the risk". I think the thread you'e started here is perfect for this.

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    Default mike6684

    I have been a member of a paid department for 8 years and a volunteer for a neighboring department for 16 years. I have held all positions on the volunteer dept. and am a FF/EMT for the paid dept. It is my personal opinion that all of the replys to this post are correct, the root of the problem is the driver of the vehicle. The problem is not necessarily with the young guys or gals it is "tunnel vision". This can happen with everyone that is responding to an incident, young or old, male or female, new guy or veteran. I have had to tell people to slow down going to grass fire calls, there is no need to run lights and sirens and drive 20 miles an hour over the posted speed limit to a grass fire that isn't a life threat. Also if you read the LODD deaths that occur most of them are POVs responding to a call or Tanker rollovers. In my opinion most of the tanker rollover accidents could have been prevented if they would have responded without lights and sirens. The lights should only be used when parked on the road for traffic protection purposes. I also have a POV with lights and siren. I respond with caution because I see how people drive when I drive the paid departments apparatus when im working, so therefore I see more calls than the volunteers do on that department. Fortunatly on the volunteer dept. we have never had a POV crash, or LODD. Nebraska laws state that a POV is NOT an Authorized Emergency Vehicle.

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    POV's don't kill. Idiots behind the wheel kill. And an idiot behind the wheel of a POV is just as likely to kill someone with the big red fire truck once he climbs in there. It is so naive to think a bad driver all of a sudden becomes a good driver when he changes vehicles.
    Even the burger-flippers at McDonald's probably have some McWackers.

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    I require guys to respond directly to our station - no POV response. When I made the change several years ago, I used the firefighter fatality studies and broke it down by number of vehicle accidents that resulted in a fatality and then the percentage of those vehicle accidents that were POV - the number was shockingly high. It was a pretty easy decision to make.

    I also expect guys to use due regard for safety when responding to the station and strongly discourage red blinky dash lights and let our local police know they are free to write tickets or contact me about anyone driving inappropriately.

    One of the previous posters mentioned that he can keep a dangerous driver out of the fire truck seat but not the POV seat - I think that's a great way to look at it. If you think your department won't be held liable or sued by someone who is injured by one of your firefighters responding POV, you should think again.

    I have always had the position that we, as firefighters, are problem solvers. We solve unique, dangerous and challenging problems, but at the most basic level, that's what we do. If we create a problem when dispatched to solve a problem, we now have two things to deal with instead of one and creating problems is 100 % counterproductive to what we do.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ffnukkie1617 View Post
    I guess, in a "perfect world", we wouldn't even have to write articles like Mike's because there would already be a program or system in place to prevent that type of stuff from happening.

    No, in a "perfect world" every community in the United States would have adequate funding for fire protection so that an appropriate number of firefighters would be on duty at stations to respond on the apparatus, and you wouldn't have to rely on volunteers responding in POV's (and this is a volly chief of an all volunteer department talking here).

    In a perfect world we would not have to rely on volunteers to provide vital community services. But it's not a perfect world, so we do what we can to get by. Which includes having volunteer fire departments in some areas. Which means that there are going to be POV responses. Let's face it, even if your department does not allow POV response to the scene, they still have to drive to the station, unless you utilize some sort of volunteer duty coverage.

    I've read a lot of posts from volly departments who do not allow POV response to the scene, all personnel must report to the station. That's great if you cover a little 2-3 square mile township where everyone can get to the station in a minute or so. When you cover 75+ square miles, it's a little tougher to make that a requirement.
    Chief Dwayne LeBlanc
    Paincourtville Volunteer Fire Department
    Paincourtville, LA

    "I have a dream. It's not a big dream, it's just a little dream. My dream and I hope you don't find this too crazy is that I would like the people of this community to feel that if, God forbid, there were a fire, calling the fire department would actually be a wise thing to do. You can't have people, if their houses are burning down, saying, 'Whatever you do, don't call the fire department!' That would be bad."
    C.D. Bales, "Roxanne"

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    Quote Originally Posted by nmfire View Post
    POV's don't kill. Idiots behind the wheel kill. And an idiot behind the wheel of a POV is just as likely to kill someone with the big red fire truck once he climbs in there. It is so naive to think a bad driver all of a sudden becomes a good driver when he changes vehicles.
    This is an excellent point!! As I said, we have trouble ensuring what the driver does between the page out and his/her arrival at the station or scene. I lump any response where the operator drives a POV into the same category regardless of destination.

    I've yet to hear a good argument on why POV's need lights? Maybe we're evolving to the point that too many of us are sick of reading the same statistics repeated each year.

    One can only wonder how much of a reduction in the driver LODDs we'd see if there were no lights in POV's and amber only lights with no sirens on non- NFPA rated tankers.

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    Firstly I'm Australian, don't hold me to it but i'm proud.

    What does POV mean?

    Secondly in my states brigade (NSW) we are required to attend the station first ALWAYS before going to an incident. We all attend the station in private vehicles and are governed by the standard road rules whilst travelling in our own vehicles, this includes turning out to the incident if we miss the trucks in our own vehicles. We by law are not allowed to have lights and sirens on our own vehicles.

    This shows because we MAY have one LODD every year in our state.

    Volfire, may chime in here about his states rules (VIC) but i suspect them to be the same.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hairyman View Post
    Firstly I'm Australian, don't hold me to it but i'm proud.

    What does POV mean?
    Privately Owned Vehicle. Your system has some inherent benefits when it comes to standardization and the ability to make blanket rules, while ours is nearly everyman for themselves. Sometimes this is a benefit to us, other times it's a curse.

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    Quote Originally Posted by RFDACM02 View Post
    I've yet to hear a good argument on why POV's need lights? .
    In our situation, I find they help. Being in a rural community, most everyone around here knows that the fire department is volunteer and that you can occasionally expect to see firefighters responding down the road in POV's. Most folks recognize it when they see it and will pull over or yield the right of way, unless they just have their head up their *****. I think this actually makes for a safer and quicker response because I'd much rather have John Q. Public pull over and let me through than having to risk a pass if I don't need to.

    I think in some states they actually refer to these lights in POV's as "courtesy lights", and that makes a lot of sense to me...they let other drivers know you're on your way to an emergency and are requesting the right of way.

    Now, if you volunteer in a more urban or suburban area, with heavier traffic, or in a very small district where you have a very short response, I can see where it might not help that much. But in our situation it's useful.

    Of course, as with everything else, they still must be used with some restraint. I recently had to terminate a member who just wouldn't get with the program after repeated warnings about his driving. Hated to do it, but he was a liability. In our department you have to have permission from the chief to run lights in a POV, and I only grant that permission once you have demonstrated the capacity to drive safely and sanely without them.
    Chief Dwayne LeBlanc
    Paincourtville Volunteer Fire Department
    Paincourtville, LA

    "I have a dream. It's not a big dream, it's just a little dream. My dream and I hope you don't find this too crazy is that I would like the people of this community to feel that if, God forbid, there were a fire, calling the fire department would actually be a wise thing to do. You can't have people, if their houses are burning down, saying, 'Whatever you do, don't call the fire department!' That would be bad."
    C.D. Bales, "Roxanne"

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    Quote Originally Posted by dmleblanc View Post
    Of course, as with everything else, they still must be used with some restraint. I recently had to terminate a member who just wouldn't get with the program after repeated warnings about his driving. Hated to do it, but he was a liability. In our department you have to have permission from the chief to run lights in a POV, and I only grant that permission once you have demonstrated the capacity to drive safely and sanely without them.
    More of us need bosses like you! Sometimes you must make the hard decisions and enforce the rules. When we used to issue red light permits, you had to have 1 year on the FD before getting one. This allowed the Chief time to determine your safe habits (or lack thereof). The guys who repeatedly asked about their permits were almost always denied, as their brains had not outgrown their ... well you get the point. The downside was that many had lights and were never reprimanded for using them without the permit. We were re-evaluating this policy with the new boss and it was decided the risk was greater than the gain. Done deal.

    I think they can be used sanely, if well regulated and watched, but still pose some issues. Basically the worst is arriving at a STOP sign or lighted intersection with the red light. What is expected of the civilian? They barely know to get out of the way of the firetruck with sirens and lights. What about when the blue-hair ahead of you doesn't see you coming and panics when they finally see the light in the mirror? Also, bicyclists have no warning and if there are other vehicle about, this creates a dangerous situation.
    Last edited by RFDACM02; 11-21-2008 at 02:29 PM.

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    Hehe,You want Mike and your crew to go home in BETTER shape than when they came in AND you're letting them eat Wasses hotdogs? Now that's a hoot! How about a nice low fat fish sandwich? POV here is a way of life unless you want to wait 10-20 minutes for a rig.NO full time personnel and most work well away from the station.

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    Question Good stuff!

    After a few day lul, there were a number of new posts. Thanks for everyone participating and not just reading and moving on.

    Mike above mentioned something about Tenders responding without lights and sirnes. While there is TOO HIGH of a number of tender roll overs, I'm not so sure non-light and siren responses would work in all cases. In particular rural structure fires. We recently had a save on a rural house, and only because we had 3000gal of water on scene in under 5 minutes. if we had just had the engines supply, I'm not sure we would have had the same result. Grass fires, I would agree with no expsoures around.

    nmfire...Amen

    RFD...thanks for all of your comments. You made a good point regarding "non-NFPA rated tenders". I also agree with your comment about more bosses like dml. Some of our leaders need to grow a bigger set and not be afraid of dealing with "problem kids." In my opinion, most would be respected more if they DID something than when they do nothing.

    Something has bothered me through this thread though. I'm seeing the common refrence to "courtesy lights", which by my understanding is the use of a blinky flashy light with NO audible warning. In my opinion, the use of "courtesy lights" should seriously be looked at. They cause confusion with most other drivers on the road and seem to give a false sense of "right to brake the rules" with the driver of the POV. I've never been a fan of "courtesy lights" because they are little more than a distraction; and this is where I think there is some confusion on this topic.

    In Wisconsin, by vehicle code, "authorized POVs" are designated as "authorized emergency vehicles" when giving warning by audible siren or whistle. And as with every state in the union, no amount of lights or audible warning protect the operator when operation without DUE REGARD. I think when it's clear to Q Public that the vehicle approaching is an authorized emergency vehicle (light and siren), there are less problems.

    What I would be curious to know is of the POV LODD's, what number of them were and were not operating light and siren, light only, or nothing, and also the age of each driver. I really don't know, but I would tend to believe that most POV LODD's are a result of younger drivers, who were untrained to drive in emergency conditions, and were not operating with visual and/or audible warning systems. Maybe it's my warped mind, but the massive responsibility of using lights and siren has made me more conscience of how I drive when responding.

    Again, thank you everyone for participating. keep it coming!!

    ~ffnukkie

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rescue101 View Post
    How about a nice low fat fish sandwich? POV here is a way of life unless you want to wait 10-20 minutes for a rig.NO full time personnel and most work well away from the station.
    I like my low fat fish sandwiches deep fried and smothered in tartar sauce! Might explain my increase uni pant size. POV responses are a way of life here as well, just no red lights. Almost all open flame = off duty and call personnel responding to the station via POV.

    ffnukkie1617: Good point on the lights and audibles vs. "courtesy lights". Here our firefighters are only allowed "courtesy lights", with chief officers being allowed full authorized emergency vehicle privileges. I agree it would be interesting to see the correlation between what devices were used and the LODD's. Maybe someone in the EFO program can write a paper. On the water tender/tankers, I believe to be reasonable, NFPA 1901 compliance should allow you to have full emergency vehicle devices, but I cannot see allowing old oil/milk trucks to use sirens and red lights to increase their speed, travel down the wrong lane or any other privilege given the hazards.

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    Yep,and the Wasses hotdogs are GREAT! But if you think that one was just going to slide by,you'd be sadly mistaken. I remember the seafood feed(Chowder)the guys used to build up there.We'd go down by the pier,load up and your stomach would growl all day over the aroma coming out of the kitchen.That was some fine eating.We've got an old converted oil truck and it works just fine. Like ANY 2000+ water hauler it has limitations and the pilot had better be pretty well skilled. I equate most "tanker"mishaps to INEXPERIENCED drivers.At least in my world the DRIVER pool is shrinking,I've got plenty of wheelholders. A good "final" is to put the prospect into my heavy wrecker,if they can drive that,they can drive anything the FD owns.Hehe T.C.

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    In the words of Larry the Cable Guy...If guns kill people, then I can blame bad spelling on my pencil. So I guess we can blame the inanimate automobile for killing people now too. It obviously has nothing to do with the person behind the wheel.
    Even the burger-flippers at McDonald's probably have some McWackers.

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    Quote Originally Posted by donethat View Post
    Years ago I watched a program on 20-20 about a company in Phoenix that made a living investigating accidents like a crane failure or a truck accident. They spend most of the show on how they investigate and the technology used etc. But at the end of the show the President of the company said:

    85% of all accidents are operator error under a stress situation!

    A fire truck is an accident waiting to happen! So Train, Train, Train and Test, Test ,Test those driver operators.
    So VERY true, and this should be posted on every emergency vehicle's dash board as a reminder.

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    Quote Originally Posted by nmfire View Post
    In the words of Larry the Cable Guy...If guns kill people, then I can blame bad spelling on my pencil. So I guess we can blame the inanimate automobile for killing people now too. It obviously has nothing to do with the person behind the wheel.
    While I agree, the statement cannot fully apply to the use of lights and sirens, as they have been prove to "excite" many peoples brains. Couple this with the adrenaline rush many less inexperienced members get going to a bark mulch fire and the though that they somehow have a "heighten sense of right of way" and the mix of human error and technology can both be causative factors. Until we have robotic drivers or cars that drive themselves, we'll have to account for human error.

    Similarly, while converted milk/oil trucks aren't the cause of accidents, allowing inexperienced drivers to operate them does. Maybe they are the cause as well, a truck designed to carry oil probably does not have adequate suspension or braking to carry the same amount of water. Hence, these vehicles should not be allowed. And by no means should they be allowed emergency vehicle status granting the privilege of exceeding the spped limit, operating in the wrong lane, passing through stop signs and red lights, etc.

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    Thumbs up Amen

    Quote Originally Posted by RFDACM02 View Post
    Similarly, while converted milk/oil trucks aren't the cause of accidents, allowing inexperienced drivers to operate them does. Maybe ... and by no means should they be allowed emergency vehicle status granting the privilege of exceeding the spped limit, operating in the wrong lane, passing through stop signs and red lights, etc.
    AMEN! We had an old milk truck for a water tender (until it was taken out of service for a HUGE number of mechanical and "structural" problems. 3300gal of unbaffeled water rollin' down a two lane road mach 1 light and siren. YIKES!! How we never had an accident is WAY beyond me.

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