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    Thumbs down We really are doomed ....

    Saskatchewan high school may flunk out failing grades
    Students would get 'incomplete' instead

    David Hutton, Canwest News Service
    Published: Saturday, November 15, 2008

    SASKATOON -- At Nutana Collegiate, failure may no longer be an option.

    To spare students' hurt feelings and damaged prospects, the Saskatoon high school is considering no longer issuing failing grades starting at the end of January. Instead of grades below 50 per cent, students would receive "incomplete" or "no mark" on their report cards and transcripts, Nutana principal Shirley Figley said.

    If the school makes the change, which is still under discussion with the school division, parents and students, Figley believes it will be the first high school in the country to do away with failing grades on a school-wide basis.

    "Failing marks do not encourage student engagement with school," Figley said in an interview at the school yesterday. "What does a mark below 50 really communicate? We thought that task could be accomplished with a term like 'incomplete' or 'no mark' and the result is the same. We don't need to degrade the student by giving them a number."

    A percentage grade below 50 is detrimental for several reasons, including its effect on a student's motivation and self-esteem, and the permanent scar it represents on a student's transcript, Figley said.

    Right now, a failing mark stays on a transcript even if the student completes the class later and receives a higher grade, she said.

    "That number stays forever, even though [a student] may have changed dramatically since it was given."

    Figley rejected the criticism that no longer failing students would give them too many second chances or add to an already lofty sense of entitlement.

    "Why do we need to penalize a student further?" she said. "They've already been penalized by not moving on ... so penalizing them further by giving them a mark that isn't indicative of their true ability isn't going to help."

    Even teachers are demoralized when they hand out failing grades, because many see it as indicative of their own efforts, Figley said.

    "Just like doctors don't want patients to die, teachers don't want their students to fail," she said.

    Mark Wilderman, the collegiate renewal facilitator, said he supports Nutana's proposal, particularly in a school where many students' lives are complicated by poverty.

    "This is a very different group of kids because sometimes they have their own kids. And if they get a [mark of] 22, for instance, it closes opportunities," Wilderman said.




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    OMFG!!!!!!


    Don't want to give a failing grade for fear of hurting their !@#$%^&* feelings!!!!

    Oh this makes me mad. Telling everyine they are failing is a great motivator!! Showing their parents they have a failing grade is a great motivator. That is the problem with this world, it is becoming way to politically correct.

    I had a an old school teacher that still whacked your fingers with a ruler when you misbehaved in class and would tell everyone's test scores to the class. Nothing like peer pressure to create some competition between your classmates.

    This is total crap.
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    Who gives two s***s about their feelings?? If they don't want to put in the effort to pass their courses, the embarrassment of having to stay behind a year while all their friends move on should be enough for them to put a little effort into school work. Seeing some of the little punks running around the streets though today I doubt it though.
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    Great!!! You spend 12 years learning that no matter what you do you cannot fail. Then you get out into the real world and you will be a failure.

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    Thumbs up

    One must wonder if the school officials spend this much time and energy on the "complete" students. You certainly wouldn't want to teach these kids that there are consequences to their actions. Not to worry though... just send them down here to the U.S. They can be as lazy and "incomplete" as they want to . Some rich guy will pay their way.

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    Quote Originally Posted by RspctFrmCalgary View Post
    To spare students' hurt feelings
    And this, Ladies and Gentlemen, is why I can't wait to retire from teaching in 3 years.
    What if the Hokey Pokey really IS what it's all about?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dickey View Post
    Nothing like peer pressure to create some competition between your classmates.

    .
    But I thought that the idea of 'competition' had been banned too? We can't have the poor little things losing a competition can we?
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    I think you guys are missing something. They aren't "passing" students who fail. It's just that failed classes don't count on your transcripts.

    This isn't a "No Child Left Behind"-thing where a child moves on no matter how bad they did in the class. If a student fails a class, they don't get any credit, but it also doesn't kill their GPA. If the class is required to graduate, then the student needs to retake the class and get a passing grade.

    They did something similar where I got my ungraduate degree and it worked pretty well. If I didn't get an A or B in the class then it was as if I didn't take it at all (except for the $$$). In fact I think it resulted in better retention since you only got credit for the course if you received a B or better.. no more skating through with a C--..
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    This isn't really a bad idea. By not blemishing their record you give them an opportunity to one day be at the same level as others. They would still have to retake the class and get a good grade in it to compete with others though. The only thing that is changing here is the timeline. Why does someone have to graduate high school at age 18? I graduated a year early at age 17 with great marks, but I don't see why someone shouldn't be able to graduate a year late with great marks as well. So it took the person longer to learn something, maybe they were already capable of learning and doing well, but outside pressures or distractions led them to mess up their lives. Colleges and employers are still going to be able to see that it took the person longer, so they won't be at the same level as a student that did it in a more timely manner. They can then see the person can learn and may be worth hiring.

    I took time off after high school to travel and joined the Army for a while. I am now a 26 year old college student with 2 years left to go. I will have to explain to future employers why they should take the 28 year old that just graduated college over the 21 year old that just did the same. Luckily my life experiences will give me an edge.

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    Quote Originally Posted by voyager9 View Post
    I think you guys are missing something. They aren't "passing" students who fail. It's just that failed classes don't count on your transcripts.

    This isn't a "No Child Left Behind"-thing where a child moves on no matter how bad they did in the class. If a student fails a class, they don't get any credit, but it also doesn't kill their GPA. If the class is required to graduate, then the student needs to retake the class and get a passing grade.

    They did something similar where I got my ungraduate degree and it worked pretty well. If I didn't get an A or B in the class then it was as if I didn't take it at all (except for the $$$). In fact I think it resulted in better retention since you only got credit for the course if you received a B or better.. no more skating through with a C--..

    So you can fail half your classes and still get an A or B average? WTF?


    Andy

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    Our world is being ran into the ground because of political correctness. Right and wrong really are out of date anyway. Heaven forbid little Johnny actually learn a life lesson in school. He shouldn't ever know what it's like to hear his half *****ed attempt just didn't cut the mustard and he actually needed to earn something. Then when he's grown up is it in wonder he doesn't want to work and just wants me to pay extra taxes so he can sit home? How about in my city? Because of the gross number of uninsured abusing the hospital (most of which are illegals) our OBGYN and heart surgery unit just shut down. Now it doesn't matter that I've paid taxes since I was 15 and provided my own medical insurance out of pocket most of my life, if my wife goes into labor or I have a heart attack it's 30 minutes by ground driving emergency on a good day. I guess I should have just paid more taxes. Screw the ignorant bleeding heart media and uber sensitive POS politicians. America best be looking elsewhere to "provide new Guards for their future security".
    Last edited by hefightsfire99; 11-18-2008 at 12:46 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by voyager9 View Post
    If a student fails a class, they don't get any credit, but it also doesn't kill their GPA.
    I don't agree with that part at all. Sure not giving them the credit makes sense, but to do it to "save their GPA" is crap. If they don't want to put the effort into a class to pass it then they deserve the consequences of having to deal with a s**t GPA along with possibly redoing the class.

    I say let them fail. Maybe when they don't get into university or college because they had garbage marks it will be a bit of an eye opener. Later on down the road when their shoveling s**t or doing some crappy job they'll look back and say damn maybe I should have put a bit more effort into things. Stop holding them by the bloody hand and let them learn their own lessons.
    If someone with multiple personalities threatens to kill himself, is it considered a hostage situation?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Murph64 View Post
    So you can fail half your classes and still get an A or B average? WTF?
    I think the key thing is that they are putting more emphasis on getting a passing grade in the required classes then on the GPA as a whole.

    The school may say that there are 10 required classes. Of those 10 a student failed 2 of them. She might have a 4.0 in the other 8, but she isn't advancing until she gets a passing grade in all of them. The GPA is meaningless until the required classes are passed.

    To me this makes more sense. You force students to get a passing grade before they move on. This is better then allowing them to progress with a failing, or almost-failing grade. In the former they're allowed to advance despite not learning anything.
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    Quote Originally Posted by ndvfdff33 View Post
    I don't agree with that part at all. Sure not giving them the credit makes sense, but to do it to "save their GPA" is crap. If they don't want to put the effort into a class to pass it then they deserve the consequences of having to deal with a s**t GPA along with possibly redoing the class.
    There are consequences in both scenarios. If the student doesn't pass a required class, they don't graduate. On the other hand, if a student fails a class, then retakes it and does much better why shouldn't their GPA be based on the new grade? That's not how it works now. I believe the two are averaged (may be wrong there).

    Quote Originally Posted by ndvfdff33 View Post
    I say let them fail. Maybe when they don't get into university or college because they had garbage marks it will be a bit of an eye opener. Later on down the road when their shoveling s**t or doing some crappy job they'll look back and say damn maybe I should have put a bit more effort into things. Stop holding them by the bloody hand and let them learn their own lessons.
    I honestly don't think this is hand-holding. In fact I think this is being stricter since it removes all the almost-failing grades. A student either gets an A, B or they retake the class. They may get summer school or get held back a year. No more of this "C is for Commencement, that's good enough for me"
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    Why don't some of the higher GPA students give some of there average to the failing students. That way they can balance it out?
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    Quote Originally Posted by voyager9 View Post
    There are consequences in both scenarios. If the student doesn't pass a required class, they don't graduate. On the other hand, if a student fails a class, then retakes it and does much better why shouldn't their GPA be based on the new grade? That's not how it works now. I believe the two are averaged (may be wrong there).
    I say put both marks on the transcripts so that it's known that this person failed the course when university's, colleges or whatever and they can say well what happened here. I think your right about averaging out between the two.

    But as a good RSM told a course of mine "you choose the behavior, you choose the consequences". If you don't want to put the effort into passing your class or getting the help you need to pass a class, you deserving to have the failing mark that comes with it. There is plenty of ways for a student with difficulty in a class to get help.


    To spare students' hurt feelings and damaged prospects, the Saskatoon high school is considering no longer issuing failing grades starting at the end of January.
    This is what irritated me the most about it though. Doing it simply to spare their hurt feelings is a joke. I know people who went to University, had a full schedule of required course first year, failed a couple and boom they're working some dead end job because they weren't eligible to come back the next year.

    Whats going to happen to these students who aren't used to failing grades and just being able to retake the course?? They won't know what hit them.
    If someone with multiple personalities threatens to kill himself, is it considered a hostage situation?

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    Quote Originally Posted by ndvfdff33 View Post
    This is what irritated me the most about it though. Doing it simply to spare their hurt feelings is a joke. I know people who went to University, had a full schedule of required course first year, failed a couple and boom they're working some dead end job because they weren't eligible to come back the next year.
    I agree there. Students shouldn't be babied and their feelings should be fairly low down on the priority list. There is something to be said for dropping the failing grade if the course is retaken, though:
    Right now, a failing mark stays on a transcript even if the student completes the class later and receives a higher grade, she said.

    "That number stays forever, even though [a student] may have changed dramatically since it was given."
    Especially at the middle/highschool level there should be some flexibility to allow a student to recover from a mistake. Again, not hand-holding or babying.. but also, don't write them off either.
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    Quote Originally Posted by voyager9 View Post
    I agree there. Students shouldn't be babied and their feelings should be fairly low down on the priority list. There is something to be said for dropping the failing grade if the course is retaken, though:


    Especially at the middle/highschool level there should be some flexibility to allow a student to recover from a mistake. Again, not hand-holding or babying.. but also, don't write them off either.

    See that's where I disagree. I'm not saying write them off. Let them recover and take the class again and pass it. But don't take that failing grade off their transcript. If they pass it let their new mark be put on their GPA.

    Let's say a student fails English 11 and English 12. Retakes both classes and passes with flying colors. That student applies to University to take English or whatever. I think that university has the right to know that they had failed English twice to say well what happened here. Then they can decide well maybe you shouldn't take English and start looking into other classes that might be better for them. If that mark is taken off their transcript how will they ever know?
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    Complete BS. Cant agree more dickie and nvd. At this rate we all can screw up at work and say you can't fire me, I will cry... Need the old days of the teachers slapping wrists for misbehaving and tolerating nothing less than a',b's. Why do I say that; because EVERYONE is capable of learning, some just need to put MORE EFFORT into learning than others. But instead we have become politically correct, and call these people stupid or misfortuned and say its ok to beat up other kids and fail out of school. I am 23 years old. So I am not far out of high school and can still relate to the decline of education as I look back on how it was in 6th grade even versus 12th grade. Then going to college and feeling a wake up call, even though through the 4 years of college it seems that standards appeared to fall. Unreal, anyone have serious ideas on how to change this, and education standards across the country. This is completely unacceptable.

    Ps: Sorry for the rant, but this was the last education straw I had....

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    Quote Originally Posted by ndvfdff33 View Post
    See that's where I disagree. I'm not saying write them off. Let them recover and take the class again and pass it. But don't take that failing grade off their transcript. If they pass it let their new mark be put on their GPA.
    Maybe that's the middle ground with respect to this discussion. Leave the failed class on the Transcript, but let the new grade replace the failed one when the GPA is calculated. Since both are sent to colleges..etc. You get some record of how many times a student failed a class, but they still get the full advantage of getting a better grade.
    So you call this your free country
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    Quote Originally Posted by ndvfdff33 View Post
    See that's where I disagree. I'm not saying write them off. Let them recover and take the class again and pass it. But don't take that failing grade off their transcript. If they pass it let their new mark be put on their GPA.

    Let's say a student fails English 11 and English 12. Retakes both classes and passes with flying colors. That student applies to University to take English or whatever. I think that university has the right to know that they had failed English twice to say well what happened here. Then they can decide well maybe you shouldn't take English and start looking into other classes that might be better for them. If that mark is taken off their transcript how will they ever know?

    Why don't we throw out the good old No Child Left Behind and get back into the business of educating our children? Don't dumb down the curriculum because some are too lazy to get it. Don't advance a child that fails. If some delinquent takes 4 attempts to pass the 9th grade then he/she should be 22 at his/her graduation. It is ridiculous that we have children graduating high school that can't read their name off a warrant, send them off to college and only there do they realize that they don't have the necessary skills to succeed. Put prayer, the paddle, and old hard nosed teachers back into the schools. Maybe then our young people will come into the workforce knowing more than how to whine about fairness and reproduce.
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    This is total crap

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    The NCLB act was supposed to bring accountability to the school system. He was supposed to raise standards and make failing school districts improve. Unfortunately, the strong teachers union stand in the way of progress. The focus of the union is to get the most in dollars for the teachers and ignores the task at hand, which is educating our youth.

    What we really need are standardized national test. It drives me nuts when I see a high school grad who can't add two numbers, make change, or write a complete sentence. And we wonder why the Japanese and Chinese are taking over!!

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    Quote Originally Posted by ScareCrow57 View Post
    The NCLB act was supposed to bring accountability to the school system. He was supposed to raise standards and make failing school districts improve. Unfortunately, the strong teachers union stand in the way of progress. The focus of the union is to get the most in dollars for the teachers and ignores the task at hand, which is educating our youth.

    What we really need are standardized national test. It drives me nuts when I see a high school grad who can't add two numbers, make change, or write a complete sentence. And we wonder why the Japanese and Chinese are taking over!!

    The problem is .. it's another unfunded mandate courtesy of the present occupant of the oval office... as the bumper sticker states...

    "If you think education is expensive, what is the cost of ignorance?"
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    Quote Originally Posted by MTKROUSH View Post
    Why don't we throw out the good old No Child Left Behind and get back into the business of educating our children? Don't dumb down the curriculum because some are too lazy to get it. Don't advance a child that fails. If some delinquent takes 4 attempts to pass the 9th grade then he/she should be 22 at his/her graduation. It is ridiculous that we have children graduating high school that can't read their name off a warrant, send them off to college and only there do they realize that they don't have the necessary skills to succeed. Put prayer, the paddle, and old hard nosed teachers back into the schools. Maybe then our young people will come into the workforce knowing more than how to whine about fairness and reproduce.
    I definitely agree with that. But I also know in today's world they wouldn't allow that simply because, as it said right in the article, we don't want to hurt their feelings. It's total BS but it's sadly the way it is and it will only get worse.
    If someone with multiple personalities threatens to kill himself, is it considered a hostage situation?

    Ryan

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