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  1. #126
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    I was about to post some responses to your last post Fryed, but thought better of it.

    Somehow you always seem to bring a lot of unrelated garbage into just about every thread, no matter the topic.

    Thought I'd just let it go this time.

  2. #127
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    Even though this has NOTHING to do with the topic of the thread, I feel the need to comment. It seems that a few of you will go to the extremes to try and make a certain person or certain tactic look bad. LA has stated many times that searching vacants in HIS area is not something that is normaly required. Just like it is not something that is normaly required in my area. We do not have a high homeless population. Nor do we have many vacant structures at all. And those that we do have would not be in searchable condition by the time we arrived. That is how our areas are. That may not be the way it is in other parts of the country. Know your area and what you may have to deal with.

    You can throw the argument of kids playing with fire out all you want. But the fact is I could say I have a vacant building with a 10 foot barbed wire fence around it, and some of you would say search it becuase there is a chance that kids may have tunnelled under the fence, came up through the kitchen floor and then accidentaly started the fire.

    Some of you really need to come back to reality and let your personal vendettas go. You will be much happier folks, I promise.
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    I don't mind fire rolling over my head. I just don't like it rolling UNDER my a**.

  3. #128
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    Quote Originally Posted by GTRider245 View Post
    Even though this has NOTHING to do with the topic of the thread, I feel the need to comment. It seems that a few of you will go to the extremes to try and make a certain person or certain tactic look bad. LA has stated many times that searching vacants in HIS area is not something that is normaly required. Just like it is not something that is normaly required in my area. We do not have a high homeless population. Nor do we have many vacant structures at all. And those that we do have would not be in searchable condition by the time we arrived. That is how our areas are. That may not be the way it is in other parts of the country. Know your area and what you may have to deal with.

    You can throw the argument of kids playing with fire out all you want. But the fact is I could say I have a vacant building with a 10 foot barbed wire fence around it, and some of you would say search it becuase there is a chance that kids may have tunnelled under the fence, came up through the kitchen floor and then accidentaly started the fire.

    Some of you really need to come back to reality and let your personal vendettas go. You will be much happier folks, I promise.
    Seeing that you have the FOOLS logo as your avatar, I can't believe you are supporting "the great educator".

    If you truly believe in FTM-PTB-DTRT-EGH-RFB, go back and read his posts. You won't have to go through 3,000 + to see that he is everything that a FOOLS member abhors.
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  4. #129
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    Quote Originally Posted by GTRider245 View Post
    You can throw the argument of kids playing with fire out all you want. But the fact is I could say I have a vacant building with a 10 foot barbed wire fence around it, and some of you would say search it becuase there is a chance that kids may have tunnelled under the fence, came up through the kitchen floor and then accidentaly started the fire.
    I understand your point. However, don't think it can't happen.

    We've had abandonded buildings catch fire when kids were messing around. Just a few years ago. When they talked to the kids after, it was discovered that they almost got caught in the building.

    I live in a quiet, affluent (mostly) suburb with maybe 1 or 2 transient homeless.

    It's a valid argument.
    I am now a past chief and the views, opinions, and comments are mine and mine alone. I do not speak for any department or in any official capacity. Although, they would be smart to listen to me.

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  5. #130
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    Quote Originally Posted by GTRider245 View Post
    Even though this has NOTHING to do with the topic of the thread, I feel the need to comment. It seems that a few of you will go to the extremes to try and make a certain person or certain tactic look bad. LA has stated many times that searching vacants in HIS area is not something that is normaly required. Just like it is not something that is normaly required in my area. We do not have a high homeless population. Nor do we have many vacant structures at all. And those that we do have would not be in searchable condition by the time we arrived. That is how our areas are. That may not be the way it is in other parts of the country. Know your area and what you may have to deal with.

    You can throw the argument of kids playing with fire out all you want. But the fact is I could say I have a vacant building with a 10 foot barbed wire fence around it, and some of you would say search it becuase there is a chance that kids may have tunnelled under the fence, came up through the kitchen floor and then accidentaly started the fire.

    Some of you really need to come back to reality and let your personal vendettas go. You will be much happier folks, I promise.

    As soon as we stopped getting called stupid and dinosaurs for doing our jobs, we will leave LAjerkoff alone for not doing his. Fair?
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  6. #131
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    That pretty well sums it up. T.C.

  7. #132
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    For the record, I am not supporting LA or his actions or opinions in general. I just see where he is comming from on this one particular issue, since it applies to my areas as well. Never said he was the messiah of fire.

    Cheif Gonz, you're right, I do display the FOOLS logo. I am a memeber and believe in everything they teach. I have received training from the FOOLS that I have no doubt will save my life one day. On your other point, read above.

    Cheif K, I have no doubt it is a possibiliy. I was just using that as an example to show how come members will go to certain extents to try and make someone else look stupid. No one in particular, on either end.

    So, now that we are all on the same page, I stand by the last point I made in my orginal post.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rescue101 View Post
    I don't mind fire rolling over my head. I just don't like it rolling UNDER my a**.

  8. #133
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    WE MAY be on the same page. LA, on the other hand,is on his own little island. T.C,

  9. #134
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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    I was about to post some responses to your last post Fryed, but thought better of it.

    Somehow you always seem to bring a lot of unrelated garbage into just about every thread, no matter the topic.

    Thought I'd just let it go this time.
    You sre going to let it go because what are you going to say? That you didn't say those things? YOU DID SAY THEM. You can twist and bend and make up stories and tell us in another post something entirely different but it won't matter. YOU SAID THEM and now they are haunting you. Trees get moderate risk, no cars in the drive means no search. No smoke detectors means less a chance of a search and if people die it is their fault because they didn't have smoke detectors. If it is too dangerous, whatever the hell that means, you won't enter a burning structure. On and On and On. Stopping at green lights, chastising a guy for making a grab of a baby because he didn't have all of his gear on even though he was OUTSIDE of the structure. You spend more time worrying about ways to get out of actually doing the job that the citizens expect than most guys do actually doing the job.

    The truth is if you don't want people to continually call you on your nonsensical crap, and it is crap no matter how you flavor it, then shut the hell up about every one else's operations, stop jumping on LODD's like they only happen to prove your twisted points of view. Realize that no one gives damn what you doing in BF louisiana as long as you don't try to say everyone else is wrong in what they do. It really is that easy.

    My guess is none of this will matter to you because you are as ignorant as you are egotistical.

  10. #135
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    Trees get moderate risk, no cars in the drive means no search.

    Don't deny I said trees, specifically timber stands, get moderate risk, because they have value. Folks are often counting on them for retirement, college or sa number of other things. To the corporate world, it's future inventory, same as in a store or warehouse.

    I never said "no car in the drive, no search" and you know it. I said it's a factor in deciding go or no go. Never said it was the sole determining factor and you know it.

    No smoke detectors means less a chance of a search and if people die it is their fault because they didn't have smoke detectors


    Yup. No smoke detectors means delayed warning which means delayed fire department notification which means a more advanced fire on arrival. And that means less chance the structure is not burning beyond the point that we can make entry, especially in the rural part of the district. And especially in mobile or manufactured homes, which is the bulk of the housing stock in those areas.

    Fire behavior and building construction 101.

    And yes, it is thier fault because they decided not to buy and maintain smoke detectors. And no, we don't have the reponsibility to go beyond a reasonable limit to save them because they made that choice. It's not our responsibility to get hurt or killed because of another's intentional action, or in this case, inaction.

    If it is too dangerous, whatever the hell that means, you won't enter a burning structure


    If looking at the scene, it's not unreasonable that we are going to get hurt or killed making entry, it's too dangerous, unless, there is a high probability of a viable victim inside with a high probability of a successful rescue.

    Stopping at green lights, chastising a guy for making a grab of a baby because he didn't have all of his gear on even though he was OUTSIDE of the structure.

    Wearing PPE means wearing PPE all the time. Sorry if that offends you.

    Chief mentioned our intersection problems (one accident and a few close calls in the last 2 weeks) last night at training. He suggested we slow way down and take extra precautions on red and green lights as two of the close calls involved civilian vehicles busting reds at my favorite intersection. Interesting, huh?

    Yup, you don't agree with me and never will. I find the level in the fire service today to be way too high given fire loading, building construction and staffing.

    I feel we take way to many chances for minimal or no gain. Yes, there are times it is warrented, especially in urban areas (though still waiting on someone to give me a percentage of empty/not empty per 100 abondoned fires) but much of the time, it is not, and based on old school garbage like "a building isn't empty until we say it is". The fact is that in most surburban and rural communties, searches are simply not necessary and neighbors, familiy members and supervisors/foremans can be taken at their word that thier homes, neighbors home, factory, office or warehouse are empty if they tell us they are. My concern is the surburban and rural guys. The city guys are driven by an out of date culture that I have accepted will never change. Surburban and rural departments are often less affected by that culture and are more open to change.

    I feel that many "old school" tactics need to be changed and those who deny that are living in the past. Call them whatever you want. Searching without a handline is one example. The world is not as it was 20 years ago.

    I feel the culture needs to change dramatically. There are others who feel the same way. With a little bit of luck, we will be regulated into changing at some point down the (short) road as seemingly we refuse to do it ourselves. Hopefully I will still be around to see that.

    I know you feel that I am out of touch. So be it.

    I have no problems discussing this. However, this thread wasn't about this, but someone decided to interject this stuff ... again.... though it had nothing to do with this thread. That was my point.
    Last edited by LaFireEducator; 06-12-2009 at 09:43 PM.

  11. #136
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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post

    Yup, you don't agree with me and never will. I find the level in the fire service today to be way too high given fire loading, building construction and staffing.

    I feel we take way to many chances for minimal or no gain. Yes, there are times it is warrented, especially in urban areas (though still waiting on someone to give me a percentage of empty/not empty per 100 abondoned fires) but much of the time, it is not, and based on old school garbage like "a building isn't empty until we say it is". The fact is that in most surburban and rural communties, searches are simply not necessary and neighbors, familiy members and supervisors/foremans can be taken at their word that thier homes, neighbors home, factory, office or warehouse are empty if they tell us they are. My concern is the surburban and rural guys. The city guys are driven by an out of date culture that I have accepted will never change. Surburban and rural departments are often less affected by that culture and are more open to change.

    I feel that many "old school" tactics need to be changed and those who deny that are living in the past. Call them whatever you want. Searching without a handline is one example. The world is not as it was 20 years ago.

    I feel the culture needs to change dramatically. There are others who feel the same way. With a little bit of luck, we will be regulated into changing at some point down the road as we refuse to do it ourselves. Hopefully I will still be around to see that.

    I know you feel that I am out of touch. So be it.
    I guess it is far more important for you to remain a petulant, ignorant, pot stirring *** than it is to stop firing shots at other fire departments.

    This is what I posted to you. Pay special attention to the highlighted bold red type.

    The truth is if you don't want people to continually call you on your nonsensical crap, and it is crap no matter how you flavor it, then shut the hell up about every one else's operations, stop jumping on LODD's like they only happen to prove your twisted points of view. Realize that no one gives damn what you doing in BF louisiana as long as you don't try to say everyone else is wrong in what they do. It really is that easy.
    You simply can't help yourself. I am beginning to believe you suffer from some sort of mental illness. People have told you over and over we don't give a damn what you do in your corner of the world, yet you simply refuse to pay people the same courtesy. I spelled it out clearly that if you stop attacking everyone else and simply post what YOU do without being a pot stirring agitator the retaliation against you would stop. I think you enjoy being the cause of a huge falming ***** storm. Prove me wrong...I don't think you can. Stop with the dinosaur nonsense, stop telling the FDNY and other busy fire departments they are wrong when you haven't even seen close to what they deal with on a daily basis.

    Look you can order your guys to wear SCBA when they grill out at the fire station if you want, NO ONE CARES WHAT YOU DO. It is when you try to impose your will on others that the trouble begins.

    Be a man and stop your silly games.

  12. #137
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    Maybe you don't care,

    But there are young members that have to hear that things need to change. maybe they feel the same way but are frustrated because all they hear is the old way of doing business.

    They need to hear that's it's OK to wonder about why they are being told to take unnecessary risks.

    This thread digressed because someone had a problem with us taking a minimum number of risks to protect a valuable commodity - timber - but didn't feel we were protecting our citizens because we don't search or operate in abandoned structures.

    So ,,, why was that even posted if someone doesn't care about what we do in our community?

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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    Maybe you don't care,

    But there are young members that have to hear that things need to change. maybe they feel the same way but are frustrated because all they hear is the old way of doing business.

    They need to hear that's it's OK to wonder about why they are being told to take unnecessary risks.

    This thread digressed because someone had a problem with us taking a minimum number of risks to protect a valuable commodity - timber - but didn't feel we were protecting our citizens because we don't search or operate in abandoned structures.

    So ,,, why was that even posted if someone doesn't care about what we do in our community?
    Two things, seriously, pay attention to what I am about to write.

    1) If you have a problem with a poster respond to THEM, not everyone else. JUST THEM. You say the topic digressed because of one poster, take the battle to them. If it was me, bring it on and you and I can slug it out. There is no need to broad brush everyone because of a conflict with a few posters.

    2) You can post what ever you want about your philosophy, as can anyone else. Don't attack anyone else's philosophy, tactics, or anything else and my guess is the number of attacks on you will drop off. It is possible to have an agenda without having to beat down anyone else's ideas. Try it, maybe the level of anymosity towards you will drop off.


    As long as you aren't attacking others, calling names like dinosaur, or saying their tactics are obsolete...say what ever you will. It is your right the same as any others here. You actually diminish yourself in the way you present ideas and flaunt LODD's.

    I really would like to see this nonsense end. But as long as you post the way you do I doubt it ever will.

  14. #139
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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    But there are young members that have to hear that things need to change. maybe they feel the same way but are frustrated because all they hear is the old way of doing business.
    Couple of Points:

    Not all change is good.

    Your brand of change is not supported by almost every firefighting source of knowledge.

    What you are doing is akin to encouraging people to try an experimental untested drug to cure hay fever.

    It's irresponsible.
    I am now a past chief and the views, opinions, and comments are mine and mine alone. I do not speak for any department or in any official capacity. Although, they would be smart to listen to me.

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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    I was about to post some responses to your last post Fryed, but thought better of it.

    Somehow you always seem to bring a lot of unrelated garbage into just about every thread, no matter the topic.

    Thought I'd just let it go this time.
    I think the question posted for this thread needs to be looked at. Everything that has been posted is pretty much off topic since the first couple of pages.

    LA maybe you can help us understand a little more. For your "abandons", what is the most common cause of ignition for a fire and what is that approximate percentage? Is there even a determination made for the source of ignition? Has there been numerous firefighter injuries or deaths (GOD forbid) while searching abandons in your area? I want to be clear I am not advocating not searching but I am trying to be open minded to your procedures and try to understand why. I stand firmly by my earlier post on our procedures and practices.

  16. #141
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    Cappy ..

    Fires in abondoned structures here are very rare ... Less than 1 a year.

    Our area has some pretty severe poverty and most structures that are about to fall down are still occupied.

    When an abandoned fire does occur, involvement on arrival is generally in excess of 75%, due to the fact that most of the abondoned structrures are in the rural areas of our district with delayed notification and extended response times.

    We have had no significant firefighter injuries operating at abondoned properties. Shreveport has had some injuries operating in them, but they are in a completly diffrent ballpark in terms of number of abondoned fires as well as the fact that they must often be more aggressive than us due to urban exposure issues.

    Leading cause is arson, but that is unofficial ,as the fire marshal will not investigate abondoned structure fires due to budget restraints and we do not have a certified fire investigator on the department.

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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    Cappy ..

    Fires in abondoned structures here are very rare ... Less than 1 a year.

    Our area has some pretty severe poverty and most structures that are about to fall down are still occupied.

    When an abandoned fire does occur, involvement on arrival is generally in excess of 75%, due to the fact that most of the abondoned structrures are in the rural areas of our district with delayed notification and extended response times.

    We have had no significant firefighter injuries operating at abondoned properties. Shreveport has had some injuries operating in them, but they are in a completly diffrent ballpark in terms of number of abondoned fires as well as the fact that they must often be more aggressive than us due to urban exposure issues.

    Leading cause is arson, but that is unofficial ,as the fire marshal will not investigate abondoned structure fires due to budget restraints and we do not have a certified fire investigator on the department.
    I think we have a terminology misunderstanding. It sounds to me like you are saying that you do not search fully involved structures. 75% is pretty much fully involved. In that case our department does not search fully involved structures either. We do attempt to save as much as possible for investigative purposes but for searching fully involved we do not. It does not sound like if you roll up and only one room is on fire you sit back and watch it burn down because it is "abandoned" but instead you still make entry and search if it is not fully involved. Is that accurrate?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cappy05 View Post
    I think we have a terminology misunderstanding. It sounds to me like you are saying that you do not search fully involved structures. 75% is pretty much fully involved. In that case our department does not search fully involved structures either. We do attempt to save as much as possible for investigative purposes but for searching fully involved we do not. It does not sound like if you roll up and only one room is on fire you sit back and watch it burn down because it is "abandoned" but instead you still make entry and search if it is not fully involved. Is that accurrate?
    You'd do better to just smash your head into a ****ing brick wall than attempt a reasonable tactics discussion with that ****bag.
    Logic and proportion have fallen sloppy dead.

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    Cappy ..

    Though most of our abondoned structures are well or fully involved on arrival, we do have a policy that prohibits us from enetering any abondoned structures.

    We have preplanned the majority of our long term abondoned and have deemed them structurally unsound for any FD operations, including search.

    If a member sees a structure in his area, he let's the depty chiwef know and we investigate the structure as soon as possible for structural integrity. In almost all cases these structures are deemed unsafe.

    SOP states that any pre-determined abondoned or any structure that the first arriving officer deems at likley abondoned is a purely exterior/defensive operation.

    I know to some this policy represents a life hazard to civilians, but it's our expereinces that the very limited possibility of occupance does not override firefighter safety in these structures.

    You'd do better to just smash your head into a ****ing brick wall than attempt a reasonable tactics discussion with that ****bag.

    Thanks for the kind words.

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    Cappy---they have a special crystal ball that determines occupancy. It's not available outside of Dumb****, LA.
    Logic and proportion have fallen sloppy dead.

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    Yup. That's it .... A special crystal ball.

    We got it through FireAct. It was that or 4 FIT-5s.

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