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  1. #26
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    Default Wow!

    I figured Buff would have replied to this one a lot sooner than this. Any chance he can get to slam Pierce. No negative comment for Spartan ???

  2. #27
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    Default If I have said it once, I have said it a million times......

    Scott, again, for the record:

    I think Pierce builds a fine product. In our recent quest to purchase an engine, I would have even considered them. My problem with them lies in some of their sales practices (hence the above comment) and eventual follow-up. Additonally, I also have a problem with companies who think that Pierce is "The last coming of Christ." I also frown on those companies (especially in southeastern Pa. and the surrounding areas) that purchase Pierces strictly for their "Parade Chrome Value."

    Now, again while I say Pierce buillds a fine product, I also stand firm to the belief that when it comes to getting "bang for your buck", there are many other manufacturers out there that deliver more than "the chrome oval"; our 2007 Spartan/Toyne being a perfect example. For the price we paid Toyne, I dare say we would have easily paid Appleton much, much more.

    And as for Spartan, I think they build a fine product (better than 15 years ago when they were having frame issues.) I am dissapointed in this allegation, sure. But circumventing purchasing procedures is one of the things that affects your brain when you drink the kool aid.
    Last edited by FWDbuff; 12-31-2008 at 10:45 AM.
    "Loyalty Above all Else. Except Honor."

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    Spanky,you feeling outnumbered yet? Hehe T.C.

  4. #29
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    there is not a apparatus company in existance who does not try to get departments to use their spec on a bid. I have no issues with any of the manufacturers. They all build a wonderful product. But I just cannot see singling out 1 manufacturer all the time. They all are not saints
    Last edited by ScottAvery; 12-31-2008 at 11:14 AM.

  5. #30
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    There is not a apparatus company in existance who does not try to get departments to use their specs on a bid. I have no issues with any of the manufacturers. They all build a wonderful product. But I just cannot see singling out 1 manufacturer all the time. They all are not saints
    Last edited by ScottAvery; 12-31-2008 at 11:16 AM.

  6. #31
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    There is not a apparatus company in existance who does not try to get departments to use their specs on a bid. I have no issues with any of the manufacturers. They all build a wonderful product. But I just cannot see singling out 1 manufacturer all the time. They all are not saints
    Last edited by ScottAvery; 12-31-2008 at 11:19 AM.

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    There is not a apparatus company in existance who does not try to get departments to use their specs on a bid I have no issues with any of the manufacturers. They all build a wonderful product. But I just cannot see singling out 1 manufacturer all the time. They all are not saints
    Last edited by ScottAvery; 12-31-2008 at 11:13 AM.

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    There is not a apparatus company in existance who has tried to get a department to use their specs in a bid. I have no issues with any of the manufacturers. They all build a wonderful product. But I just cannot see singling out 1 manufacturer all the time. They all are not saints
    Last edited by ScottAvery; 12-31-2008 at 11:09 AM.

  9. #34
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    Cool Pattern emerging?

    Revised due to discretion.

  10. #35
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    Sorry about the duplicates my computer has a mind of its own. No Tim I dont feel outnumbered I am just tired of hearing the same old stuff. I applaud each and every member who works on a truck committee. a lot of hours away from family, salesman trying to tell what to buy. Its a lot of work and until you see the end result its can be a long bumpy road. We all have our preferences and thats fine just enough on the bashing we all know what manufactures you like or dont like. Lets just chill a bit and especilly the guys or gals who have had experience on speccing a truck lets do what we can to help out some of our brothers and sis ters to make sure they dont make some of the same mistakes we made
    Last edited by ScottAvery; 12-31-2008 at 11:08 AM.

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    There are only three reasons to use a company's spec when you are bidding a truck:

    1) A clear message to all those you asked for a spec and price from that you are going to buy that particular company's rig no matter what. This is why you either get no other bids or perhaps a lukewarm response from the other companies.

    2) The lack of experience or knowledge of how to write a spec for a vehicle.

    3) Laziness. Cut and paste spec writing is not the way to design a rig.


    When I was selling I simply would not watse my time bidding a rig that the spec was obviously another manufacturers spec. Writing a bid and completing a custom spec takes time and why waste your time when a potential buyer has made it clear what he wants to buy? Hell most FD's wouldn't bid at all if it wasn't a local requirement, they would simply call the manufacturer of what they want, meet, design it together with the rep, and order it.

  12. #37
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    Default Facts !

    [QUOTE=islandfire03;1019705]Lets see : Force Protection is a company that recently was bought out at bankruptcy by Patriarch partners . The same investment firm that ran ALF into chapter 11 & then bought it back at pennies on the dollar.

    Anybody else seeing a pattern here?

    Anyone interested in the facts?

    http://www.charlestonbusiness.com/ne...in-fines?rss=0

    Force Protection was not the company purchased by Patriarch Partners. The company purchased under Chapter 11 was Protected Vehicles Inc.


    "..Also this week, Force Protection and Protected Vehicles Inc. reached a settlement agreement in a copyright case Force Protection brought against PVI and CEO Garth Barrett. Barrett was a founding member of Force Protection but left in 2005 to create PVI in North Charleston. That bankrupt company was purchased by Patriarch Partners for $6 million in August."
    Take Care & be SAFE
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  13. #38
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    Topic creep!
    Scott Avery is the only one to get it right. No slam on Spartan. Even the objective posters like BoxAlarm187 let this one get away. Oh well, lets blame Pierce for everything. As I said before; Fascinating!

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    Quote Originally Posted by FyredUp View Post
    When I was selling I simply would not watse my time bidding a rig that the spec was obviously another manufacturers spec.
    Or, in other words, if they didn't use your spec to heck with them. Cause, let's face it, well over 90 percent of the specs that are published are a manufacturer's spec rather than a generic or performance spec.

    Plenty of other brands get sold using Pierce specs (I use Pierce because the majority of published specs I have seen in the last thirty years have been Pierce.) It is up to the salesperson to determine if he/she has a legitimate chance of success. IMHO, those departments that only receive a single bid from the company whose specs they use have given some kind of signal to potential bidders that they have already decided what to buy.

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    [QUOTE=RetJaxFF;1020184]
    Quote Originally Posted by islandfire03 View Post
    Lets see : Force Protection is a company that recently was bought out at bankruptcy by Patriarch partners . The same investment firm that ran ALF into chapter 11 & then bought it back at pennies on the dollar.

    Anybody else seeing a pattern here?

    Anyone interested in the facts?

    http://www.charlestonbusiness.com/ne...in-fines?rss=0

    Force Protection was not the company purchased by Patriarch Partners. The company purchased under Chapter 11 was Protected Vehicles Inc.

    My bad!! Thats what happens when your brain gets past the half century mark. Got the CRS disease.

    "..Also this week, Force Protection and Protected Vehicles Inc. reached a settlement agreement in a copyright case Force Protection brought against PVI and CEO Garth Barrett. Barrett was a founding member of Force Protection but left in 2005 to create PVI in North Charleston. That bankrupt company was purchased by Patriarch Partners for $6 million in August."

  16. #41
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    Talking

    Quote Originally Posted by ScottAvery View Post
    Sorry about the duplicates my computer has a mind of its own. No Tim I dont feel outnumbered I am just tired of hearing the same old stuff. I applaud each and every member who works on a truck committee. a lot of hours away from family, salesman trying to tell what to buy. Its a lot of work and until you see the end result its can be a long bumpy road. We all have our preferences and thats fine just enough on the bashing we all know what manufactures you like or dont like. Lets just chill a bit and especilly the guys or gals who have had experience on speccing a truck lets do what we can to help out some of our brothers and sis ters to make sure they dont make some of the same mistakes we made
    Hey scott Is it you or your computer thats stuttering??? Too much of TC's home cooking??? Have you taken delivery of your new puck yet??

    Not once did I ever say the pierce was the only company guilty of attempting to fix bids, In the court case and investigation in NJ it happened to be a case of collusion between the p rep & fire depts to only allow Pierce to be able to successfully bid the contracts. Thats why the state attny general filed charges , because they broke the law. Those are the facts in the court case plain & simple.
    Quite obviously spartan motors got caught breaking the law doing and have been fined heavily for their actions. Just as guilty as pierce was when they got caught. The lesson to be learned from both cases is to produce an open performance based spec for apparatus that will allow any manufacturer to be able to bid and be given an opportunity to have their bid judged against the others fairly. Don't write a spec based on the hood ornament.

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    Spanky hasn't been eating my home cookin,if he had he'd be nappin,not stuttering.Guess you'all haven't met my salesman,no sales push just a suggestion or two.A rather amazing gent who spent more time listening than talking.Initial proposal came back almost dead on,became dead on with the addition of a couple items at prebuild.Clock's ticking' I'm looking forward to mid March.T.C.

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    islandfire-No charges have been filed in NJ. No laws were broken in NJ. And if you read the report correctly you would realize early on that the same method was used by ALL manufacturers who want to sell in NJ. Its not just Pierce.

    Now can the system be impoved? Yes without a doubt. Hopefully the state will move more towards the COSTARS program or HGAC.

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    She is at Minuiteman as we speak and they are doing some add on stuff for us as well as the lettering. We wanted to get the holidays out of the way before we took delivery as a lot of my guys were going to be away. (Chief included) TC is right if I had indulged in some of that B town cuisine i would be snoozing

  20. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by Engine153 View Post
    Even the objective posters like BoxAlarm187 let this one get away.
    Hey, I try to be on top of my game!
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    Never taking for granted that I'm privileged enough to have the greatest job in the world!

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    Quote Originally Posted by sven73 View Post
    No charges have been filed in NJ. No laws were broken in NJ. And if you read the report correctly you would realize early on that the same method was used by ALL manufacturers who want to sell in NJ.
    The report cites instances where fire truck sales personnel received commission checks for rigs purchased by their own departments, which is a huge conflict of interest and raises ethical issues. Especially since there was only one bidder. It also stated that a department changed brands after one of its members started selling for a different manufacturer. I guess that was just coincidence.
    Last edited by firepiper1; 12-31-2008 at 06:12 PM.
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    And I bet that that happens each and every day by more than one ff/salesman representing many other dealers, manufacturers and in more than NJ

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    Quote Originally Posted by ScottAvery View Post
    And I bet that that happens each and every day by more than one ff/salesman representing many other dealers, manufacturers and in more than NJ
    So, does that make it right?

    A department near me was looking for a quint last year. One of its members sells apparatus. The chief told him that in order to avoid conflict of interest, his company would not be allowed to bid. I know that private fire companies may operate differently, but that's the way it should be in any municipal fire department.
    Last edited by firepiper1; 12-31-2008 at 06:41 PM.
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    No it does not however I am tired of the signalling out of one manufacturer. thats why I said it happens every where not just in NJ and not just by Pierce but there is no bashing there I have seen it happen more than once and it was not pierce or a one of there sales team
    Last edited by ScottAvery; 12-31-2008 at 06:44 PM.

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    Hey scott : you should switch from the koolaid to some nice Shipyard ale! After all it is new years eve. :-}
    Peace

    I wish I had known your puck was down in Walpole , we had to take a trip down there last week for something else.
    Last edited by islandfire03; 12-31-2008 at 07:36 PM.

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