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  1. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by firepundit View Post
    Or, in other words, if they didn't use your spec to heck with them. Cause, let's face it, well over 90 percent of the specs that are published are a manufacturer's spec rather than a generic or performance spec.

    Plenty of other brands get sold using Pierce specs (I use Pierce because the majority of published specs I have seen in the last thirty years have been Pierce.) It is up to the salesperson to determine if he/she has a legitimate chance of success. IMHO, those departments that only receive a single bid from the company whose specs they use have given some kind of signal to potential bidders that they have already decided what to buy.
    Okay first you chastise me for what I said then your last sentence that I highlighted re-enforces EXACTLY what I meant.

    Frankly, if an FD calls in a rep from any company, sits down and develops a spec with that rep, sends that spec out to other company's reps who look it over and decide that the spec is written as a brand x spec, why would the other companys invest time and money to bid? It is obvious what that FD wants or they wouldn't have invested the time with ONLY that ONE rep.

    When my volly FD was looking for a new rescue engine we sat down and wrote our needs and wants list, we then sat down with reps from 6 different companies. We shared our initial list with them and felt out who could or couldn't do what we wanted. After culling the herd so to say, we finished up our rough spec, sent it out to the companies remaining and waited to see what they had to say. We received 2 specs and prices and worked with those 2 companies until we ended up with a finished spec and price. Not one element in our spec precluded anyone that could build a stainless steel body from bidding on our rescue engine. We listed no manufacturer specific parts or processes and were willing, if it didn't compromise what we wanted, to look at manufacturers exceptions to our spec.

    Once again I revert to my previous post, there are only those 3 reasons for using a manufacturer's spec for your FD spec.

  2. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by islandfire03 View Post
    Hey scott : you should switch from the koolaid to some nice Shipyard ale! After all it is new years eve. :-}
    Peace

    I wish I had known your puck was down in Walpole , we had to take a trip down there last week for something else.
    I took you up on your advise and went to texas road house and had me some shipyahds

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    Spartan is a top notch company IMO. Their customer service is second to none. The annual mechanics training conference is amazing and a hell of a deal too. I don't believe any other manufacturer comes anywhere close in providing training like Spartan does, definitely not on the same scale.

    I'm not saying that what happened with Force Protection is right, but isn't Spartan just providing the "body builder" with a chassis? I would think that builders receive "something" for using brand X warning lights or brand Y valves as standard. Maybe not on the same scale but isn't it similar? How is it any different to send your big customers on vacations and such when in the private sector? My old employer sent customers on a Vegas weekend every year.

    Am I missing something?

    HAPPY NEW YEAR

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    It looks to me as if the allegation is specifically paying an individual in the decision-making process to choose Spartan. When it's tied to federal government contracts it should be as illegal as hell. Can you imagine the taxpayers in your community if they found the Fire Chief was given a trip to Cancun so he'd buy from a certain builder? Spartan was wrong, they were caught, they'll pay the penalty and move on. I think it's pretty low, but I'm sure this is more the norm with high dollar value contracts than we can even imagine.

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    Default Crs !

    [QUOTE=islandfire03;1020211]"My bad!! Thats what happens when your brain gets past the half century mark. Got the CRS disease."

    Islandfire;
    Not a problem ! I know the feeling.. getting very near the BIG 60 myself !!
    Take Care & be SAFE
    Bert

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    Spanky,you little s**t,you went to the roadhouse and dinnah tell me?They got roadsigns with your name on 'em! T.C.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rescue101 View Post
    Spanky,you little s**t,you went to the roadhouse and dinnah tell me?They got roadsigns with your name on 'em! T.C.
    I wanted to invite you but the wife said you would probabally not behave. A guys night out at the roadhouse would not be a bad idea. You think we can get cartman for a little extra enterainment??

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    Is a frogs tail watertight? Sounds like a good idea and I got call ahead seating on speeddial,hehe T.C.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rescue101 View Post
    Spanky,you little s**t,you went to the roadhouse and dinnah tell me?They got roadsigns with your name on 'em! T.C.
    One way and dead end!
    ‎"The education of a firefighter and the continued education of a firefighter is what makes "real" firefighters. Continuous skill development is the core of progressive firefighting. We learn by doing and doing it again and again, both on the training ground and the fireground."
    Lt. Ray McCormack, FDNY

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    Oh, I see you know Spanky,hehe T.C.

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    Quote Originally Posted by FyredUp View Post
    Okay first you chastise me for what I said then your last sentence that I highlighted re-enforces EXACTLY what I meant.
    What you meant, maybe. But, what you said was you simply don't bother to bid other builder's specs, period. I stated that plenty of people bid against competitor's specs and still sell apparatus. The sales person has to figure out why the department used the specs they published. If it was because they were too lazy (as you say) then there might still be a good chance for the sale.

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    Good point

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    Good point? Not really.

    I WAS an independent sales representative. I had no company behind me to absorb costs. I no longer sell fire apparatus due to some personal issues completely unrelated to apparatus sales.

    I went and talked to a department who sang the praises of Rosenbauer all the while I was there. They then sent out what was obviously a Rosenbauer spec and got exactly ONE BID BACK. Guess from whom? Rosenbauer. NO ONE ELSE WOULD BID THIS ENGINE. They called me and asked me why I didn't bid and I told them flat out when you use one manufacturers spec most people assume that your mind is made up so why bid on a rig you won't get.

    I guess I should soften my stance a bit on NEVER bidding another company's spec. I did do specs in some cases when I knew the basic spec they used was from a competitor but it seemed they were open to other manufacturers.

    I will tell you i lost a lot of respect for some fire apparatus sales people both from when we bought our rig and from my dealings as a rep. It is amazing what is said and done by some to sell rigs or at least attempt to sell them.

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    FyredUp has a point about independent sales folk. Those with little backing tend to shy away from bid processes where their time is going to be wasted. A lot depends on their experience in sales, the specs and what you have on the floor currently. Without someone backing your time and effort, why go through all the effort of running a spec for a brand X when you rep brand Y? If the FD uses a specific brands spec, they're saying they'd just as soon have that brand and it's your job to prove your brand will somehow be better. If you're hungry, maybe you go down that road, if not? See ya. On the other hand, the FD has not put the taxpayers first in their process. There are very few if any cases where only one brand would do, so using manufacturers specs only lead to directing the bid process in a certain direction (not toward the lowest cost yet best truck).

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    Quote Originally Posted by firepiper1 View Post
    So, does that make it right?

    A department near me was looking for a quint last year. One of its members sells apparatus. The chief told him that in order to avoid conflict of interest, his company would not be allowed to bid. I know that private fire companies may operate differently, but that's the way it should be in any municipal fire department.
    so let me get this right.

    a guy sells fire apparatus.

    he sells good stuff.

    this same guy is also a firefighter.

    everyone says that guys that sell rigs should be knowledgeable.

    so the guy is a knowledgeable salesperson who is also a firefighter and he sells good rigs.

    so his own department can't buy his good rig because he is a member.

    but its ok if they buy something not as good as long as the guy selling to his own department doesn't make a dime on it.

    now i agree that it would be improper if the guy selling the rig was also on the committee approving the purchase, or if he was the person approving the sale...but he's just a guy on the department.

    so we are gonna penalize a member of our department who knows his stuff and sells good rigs, and buy from his arch-rival competitor?

    and what about this is correct?

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    Quote Originally Posted by deputyhunter View Post
    so let me get this right.

    a guy sells fire apparatus.

    he sells good stuff.

    this same guy is also a firefighter.

    everyone says that guys that sell rigs should be knowledgeable.

    so the guy is a knowledgeable salesperson who is also a firefighter and he sells good rigs.

    so his own department can't buy his good rig because he is a member.

    but its ok if they buy something not as good as long as the guy selling to his own department doesn't make a dime on it.

    now i agree that it would be improper if the guy selling the rig was also on the committee approving the purchase, or if he was the person approving the sale...but he's just a guy on the department.

    so we are gonna penalize a member of our department who knows his stuff and sells good rigs, and buy from his arch-rival competitor?

    and what about this is correct?
    Interestingly enough, that is exactly what the federal government says you must do if you take Medicare funds. A few years back in an EMS billing legal update we found that in the Medicare rules the feds require you to be a "good corporate partner" meaning you cannot buy anything from anyone who works for you or if the salesman is directly related to someone working for you, not to mention you cannot employ anyone who has defaulted on federally backed student loan. Kinda funny the feds making these requirements, yet allowing billions in "no bid" contracts to Halliburton, KBR and the likes.

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    Quote Originally Posted by deputyhunter View Post
    so his own department can't buy his good rig because he is a member.
    I never said that he sold "good rigs."

    Each state has different ethics laws and conflict of interest standards for public employees. In Ohio, it was the right thing to do.
    Last edited by firepiper1; 01-02-2009 at 06:41 PM.
    I have only 2 allegiances, to my country and to my God. The rest of you are fair game.

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    I know of a community in southeastern Pa. that put out a RFB for two pumpers on a spec that was written by the FD, which was very clearly written towards "Brand X."

    The rep for "Brand Y" came in, had a meeting with the Township Manager, (with the Township Solicitor present at that meeting, to show that nothing improper was taking place) and showed the Twp Manager where his proposal met and in some cases exceeded "brand X's" bid.

    Brand Y got the sale.

    So sometimes it pays to bid on a biased spec.
    "Loyalty Above all Else. Except Honor."

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    Quote Originally Posted by deputyhunter View Post
    so let me get this right.

    a guy sells fire apparatus.

    he sells good stuff.

    this same guy is also a firefighter.

    everyone says that guys that sell rigs should be knowledgeable.

    so the guy is a knowledgeable salesperson who is also a firefighter and he sells good rigs.

    so his own department can't buy his good rig because he is a member.

    but its ok if they buy something not as good as long as the guy selling to his own department doesn't make a dime on it.

    now i agree that it would be improper if the guy selling the rig was also on the committee approving the purchase, or if he was the person approving the sale...but he's just a guy on the department.

    so we are gonna penalize a member of our department who knows his stuff and sells good rigs, and buy from his arch-rival competitor?

    and what about this is correct?
    How do you not get it? If they are excluded then there could be no allegations of impropriety.

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    FyredUp,

    The "good point" I was referring to was the point about departments using a manufacturers spec because either they have no idea what they want or how to write a spec. I don't believe there are a lot of fire truck sales out there and if you narrow yours down to "sure things" you probably won't sell a whole lot. I also realize that there are fire departments that know exactly which brand they are buying before going to bid, but still have to go through the bid process anyways. I can understand not investing time in those departments. If you invest a little time either at the department or online like you do, you can learn a lot about what someone is looking for, I know it's happened to me.
    I know, I know, you use to sell but don't anymore. I was just explaining my "good point" comment.

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    Content deleted by author.
    Last edited by Firefighter807; 07-08-2009 at 10:07 PM.

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    Which,like Koolaide,can be waived. T.C.

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    Quote Originally Posted by baja320 View Post
    How do you not get it? If they are excluded then there could be no allegations of impropriety.
    i still don't get it. maybe me too dumb.

    the guy is not the chief or the purchasing agent.

    he's a lowly firefighter selling rigs in his spare time.

    he sells really good rigs.

    maybe they have a house full of them already.

    so the department gets punished because one of their own guys is selling good rigs.

    y'all think thats right?

    doesn't matter if its brand koolaid or brand X.

    they want that rig. not the rig from the other guys. but they are punished cause one of their guys sell it.

    makes perfect sense to me. not.

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