1. #1
    MembersZone Subscriber

    Join Date
    Jun 2008
    Posts
    3

    Post Personnel Accountability on scene

    I had a discussion with a couple of the other officers on my dept. the other day. I said we need an accountability system for everyone that is on scene, they said the only time the accountability system is used is when someone is entering the structure.

  2. #2
    Forum Member

    Join Date
    May 2006
    Posts
    89

    Default

    Actually you should do accountablilty at all scenes including MVA, the more you do it, the natural it becomes. He says on when entering the structure, doesn't he what to know who may be doing venting operations on the roof?

  3. #3
    Forum Member

    Join Date
    Feb 2004
    Location
    Seattle
    Posts
    47

    Default

    And we all know that buildings don't collapse on firefighters conducting exterior operations.

  4. #4
    Forum Member

    Join Date
    Jan 2007
    Posts
    2,802

    Default

    everyone on the scene should be accounted for. there are a lot of things that could happen to anyone at any part of the fire ground.

    What happens if you drop a guy off to catch a plug 500 ft away and the guy collapse from a heart attack or something? That guy could be lying in a ditch for a long time.

    If you are volly its especially important to track everyone. If you have guys showing up in POV or piling anywhere from 1-8 guys in a truck, it can be very hard for the officer of the truck to keep track of his guys.

  5. #5
    Back In Black
    ChiefKN's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2003
    Location
    The Nice Part of New Jersey
    Posts
    6,981

    Default

    In some states it's also the law...

    New Jersey being one of them.

    http://www.nj.gov/dca/dfs/accountabilitybook10.pdf

    Once on the incident scene, the firefighter should place one tag at a central collection point as determined by SOP or the incident commander (IC). Such a point might be the incident command post or the apparatus that the firefighter responded with. Career firefighters might place this tag on their apparatus at the beginning of each shift if that is the departmentís policy. A central collection point is necessary so that the IC and command staff have a reliable way to know who is operating on the incident scene as a whole.
    The second tag is to be given to the Personnel Accountability Officer (PAO) upon entering any hazardous area. Usually, this will be when the firefighter enters a structure or space where they will be performing firefighting or rescue operations in an Immediately Dangerous to Life and Health (IDLH) atmosphere. However, this requirement also applies where firefighters may be
    involved in wildland operations or confined space operations where there is a risk of becoming lost or disoriented either in wide expanses or maze-like areas. Upon leaving the hazardous area, the tag is to be retrieved by the firefighter.

    The secondary tag should also be used when a firefighter checks into a rehabilitation station or a decontamination station or other specialized operational area at an incident scene. In this way, there is always someone other than the firefighters themselves that knows where they are and
    what they are doing.
    I am now a past chief and the views, opinions, and comments are mine and mine alone. I do not speak for any department or in any official capacity. Although, they would be smart to listen to me.

    "The last thing I want to do is hurt you. But it's still on the list."

    "When tempted to fight fire with fire, remember that the Fire Department usually uses water."

  6. #6
    MembersZone Subscriber

    Join Date
    Jun 2008
    Posts
    3

    Post

    Everything that everyone has replied with, I totally agree with. After all that is the way I was trained. What would be the best way to get them to realize this, they are getting stuck on the guidelines from NIMS.

  7. #7
    Back In Black
    ChiefKN's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2003
    Location
    The Nice Part of New Jersey
    Posts
    6,981

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by speedy9611 View Post
    Everything that everyone has replied with, I totally agree with. After all that is the way I was trained. What would be the best way to get them to realize this, they are getting stuck on the guidelines from NIMS.
    What guidelines??

    I'm not familiar with NIMS having guidelines for accountability?
    I am now a past chief and the views, opinions, and comments are mine and mine alone. I do not speak for any department or in any official capacity. Although, they would be smart to listen to me.

    "The last thing I want to do is hurt you. But it's still on the list."

    "When tempted to fight fire with fire, remember that the Fire Department usually uses water."

  8. #8
    MembersZone Subscriber

    Join Date
    Jun 2008
    Posts
    3

    Default

    I am researching that to see what they are talking about, as far as the NIMS guidlines.

  9. #9
    MembersZone Subscriber

    Join Date
    Aug 2006
    Location
    Franklin, TN
    Posts
    113

    Default

    We are currently using a passport type system and have for many years. It is simple to use and pretty cheap to set up.

  10. #10
    MembersZone Subscriber
    mcaldwell's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2003
    Location
    Panorama, British Columbia, Canada
    Posts
    3,022

    Default

    We use accountability on all runs, but have "levels" to accomodate for scale.

    Level one is a one or two unit general response with no M/A. FF's place their tag on a velcro fob on the dash of thier engine, and it stays with the truck.

    Level two is used for a larger response with the full fleet, and/or M/A. It is also automatic for any FF team on air with entry into an IDLH (Fire/Rescue/Confined Space, etc.). Each engine's fob is given to the IC or his accountability designate, and the units are tracked in detail for air and location.

    We have a second tag system for entry (which we would call Level three), but have found it unecessarily redundant for such a small operation as ours. We still train it for the largest of M/A scenarios where we may have an entry officer.
    Never argue with an Idiot. They drag you down to their level, and then beat you with experience!

    IACOJ

  11. #11
    MembersZone Subscriber

    Join Date
    Sep 2006
    Location
    Northeast Coast
    Posts
    3,862

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by ChiefKN View Post
    The second tag is to be given to the Personnel Accountability Officer (PAO) upon entering any hazardous area. Usually, this will be when the firefighter enters a structure or space where they will be performing firefighting or rescue operations in an Immediately Dangerous to Life and Health (IDLH) atmosphere. [/B]
    ChiefKN: Can you elaborate on how some accomplish this part? We have the same 2 tag system but most of the time, the first due units make entry before the stationary IC arrives or sets up (if at all on stills). We require guys drop their tag at the door, onto a traffic cone with a wire loop or a door tag we loop over the knob or somewhere close to keep it off the ground. Alas, the cone rarely gets placed, as it means retrieving it, from a compartment when otherwise our tools are already in hand.

    Honestly, the worst part is just getting it done. Whatever the system, you need to use it on every call so that it becomes second nature, I know when flames are showing this is one of the first things pushed to the back of the brain.

  12. #12
    Back In Black
    ChiefKN's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2003
    Location
    The Nice Part of New Jersey
    Posts
    6,981

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by RFDACM02 View Post
    ChiefKN: Can you elaborate on how some accomplish this part? We have the same 2 tag system but most of the time, the first due units make entry before the stationary IC arrives or sets up (if at all on stills). We require guys drop their tag at the door, onto a traffic cone with a wire loop or a door tag we loop over the knob or somewhere close to keep it off the ground. Alas, the cone rarely gets placed, as it means retrieving it, from a compartment when otherwise our tools are already in hand.

    Honestly, the worst part is just getting it done. Whatever the system, you need to use it on every call so that it becomes second nature, I know when flames are showing this is one of the first things pushed to the back of the brain.
    Sure

    First tag goes from your coat to a ring inside the officer's door.

    Second tag: If there is someone assigned to accountability (rare when first due gets there first). We have a six square inch orange hard plastic tag with a ring and the guys going interior put their tags on this and drop at the door. Most will attach enroute and one of them will drop it.

    We used to just drop our tags at the door, but the tags would be scattered all over the place.

    We have three chiefs going, 1 takes command and we do assign an operations officer who will usually grab the tags and work the entrance of the first line. So if they do forget the collector ring, he'll grab em.

    We do use Juniors as the accountability officer. However, they need to be trained first.
    I am now a past chief and the views, opinions, and comments are mine and mine alone. I do not speak for any department or in any official capacity. Although, they would be smart to listen to me.

    "The last thing I want to do is hurt you. But it's still on the list."

    "When tempted to fight fire with fire, remember that the Fire Department usually uses water."

  13. #13
    MembersZone Subscriber

    Join Date
    Jan 2008
    Location
    Ocala, FL
    Posts
    216

    Default A variation on the same theme

    A lot of Depts in this area use Velcro tags instead of tags on a ring. Each company has a plate velcroed to the dash and your personal tag is attached to that. At an incident the whole plate (aka passport) is brought to the accountability board where either companies or individual members can by placed on the board according to assignment. I've seen depts that use magnetic tags too so they can draw it out on an magnetic dry erase board and move units around the "map" they drew". It's basically the same as using tags on a ring, the only difference is that you can read it without searching through tags. Each tag is has the member's badge #, rank, name, EMT/PM. We're issued three tags and the spares are attached to the underside of our helmet. This has come in handy on a few occasions where an officer chose to keep accountability in a specific area of a large incident. It's a popular system here in northern FL, but I'm sure it's not unique to the area.

    As a backup we also have ID tags on a clip. These serve two purposes. First, if we run mutual aid with a dept that uses a different system these tags sill integrate. Also the tag has the member's medical info (allergies, blood type, etc) and emergency contact information that's folded and laminated inside. In case of an injury requiring transport, the tag is given to EMS for the hospital.
    I may speak gibberish, but I don't talk s***! -- Dropkick Murphys

  14. #14
    Forum Member

    Join Date
    Dec 2008
    Location
    Valley of Death, CA
    Posts
    151

    Default

    Fokker, could you let me know where you got your tags that let you laminate and fold in the emergency contact info.

    txs, M

  15. #15
    MembersZone Subscriber

    Join Date
    Jan 2008
    Location
    Ocala, FL
    Posts
    216

    Default

    We do it in house. The card has a place for your name and some fire dept stuff (patch ect) printed on one side. The other side has a form with allergies, emergency contact, blood type, med history, and I think religion (I haven't changed tags in a while) there may be more. The card is folded so the private info is on the inside. The card folds down to the size of a drivers license, we then run it through an ID tag lamination machine we have in the office. We attach an ID clip to it so we can hang them in the rig. Like I said before this is a backup to our primary system of the solid plastic tags.

    If you or anyone else is interested I'll try to get an electronic copy or at least take a pic or two. I've been meaning to learn how to upload files on here.
    I may speak gibberish, but I don't talk s***! -- Dropkick Murphys

  16. #16
    Forum Member

    Join Date
    Dec 2008
    Location
    Valley of Death, CA
    Posts
    151

    Default

    Fokker,
    I understand. Many thanks, sounds like a good system.
    Stay low, M

  17. #17
    MembersZone Subscriber
    ffmedcbk1's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2003
    Location
    Ohio
    Posts
    781

    Default

    the best accountability system is the Company Officer and watching over the crew...

    that said, passports used but only in hazard areas. don't know if anyone has a standard about acct in non-hazard areas????

  18. #18

    Join Date
    Mar 2009
    Posts
    3

    Default Accountability Tags

    This is my first post. Great Place !!!!

    I was pointed to this site by a customer that I sent some Accountability Tag Samples to.

    I make Epoxy Domed Accountability Tags and other Fire Stuff.

    Thanks,

    AL
    Attached Images Attached Images  

Thread Information

Users Browsing this Thread

There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)

Similar Threads

  1. Personnel Accountability Roll Calls
    By FFTRITT in forum Volunteer Forum
    Replies: 32
    Last Post: 05-25-2001, 09:59 AM

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts

Log in

Click here to log in or register