Thread: Dump Tanks

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    Default Dump Tanks

    Not a topic we see to often here, but how many of you have them on your apparatus? What situations call for you to drop your tank and dump into it other than no water source from hydrants, ponds, etc.? How often do you utilize it per year?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hexxus View Post
    Not a topic we see to often here, but how many of you have them on your apparatus? What situations call for you to drop your tank and dump into it other than no water source from hydrants, ponds, etc.? How often do you utilize it per year?
    We carry the dump tank on our tanker (tender in NIMS speak). As for when we use it - simple, anytime we need the tanker to supply water. Only part of our response area is hydranted so it really depends on the location of the incident.

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    Folding Tanks are Carried on all Tankers. The First arriving Tanker picks up the line laid by the First Arriving Engine and charges it. AFTER the First Engine has water, the Tanker Driver and Second arriving Engine Driver set up the Tanker's Folding Dank and set up the Second Engine to draft from it. Next Arriving Engine goes to the Fill site to draft and fill the Tankers. Next arriving Tanker dumps into Fpolding Tank that is already there, AND, if needed, unloads his Folding Tank. We run 4 Engines, 2 Trucks, Heavy Rescue, couple of EMS Units and a few Chiefs on every Structure Fire, so we have the Equipment and bodies to get it done. Quick. 2 Tankers are auto dispatch in non hydrant areas, and more can be requested by the IC at any time.
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    We got one on our tanker, because we are very rural and don't have hydrants in 80% or so of our responding area. We use it because of that reason...no hydrants. And usually never have a pond to draft from. I think we used a pond on one house fire that I can remember.
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    We have a dump tank on the engine so we can have it set up before the tanker gets there to dump ( usually) But we also have on in the tanker incase we need two dunp tanks.

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    Engine 1 has a self supporting bladder we can set up before tanker arrives. Tanker also has a foldable dump tank.
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    We carry one on both engines and both tankers. We have 2 stations. They come off quite a bit plus we run a boatload of mutual aid. I like to set up 3 tanks and try to make the middle tank the primary and the other 2 back up. We all know how quick things can go to sh** on the fire scene so if you have 2 spare droptanks and your primary tank full that should be enough water to un (four letter word here) a bad situation. Such as the pump breaks down at the fill site or etc etc. not to mention you can always send your tank water to through supply hose to the attack truck as well.

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    Default Tanks

    We carry one on both tankers and have an extra back at the station in case. We drop them on all fires. We are rural, no hydrants. We do use local mutual aid regularly and they carry dump tanks on there tankers as well. We use home made jet siphons between dump tanks.

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    Not trying to be funny or nothing, but when Malahat goes to a fire, it drops tanks. 3x 1000gal. Tanker carries 3k gal water, dumps into the tanks then buggers off for more water. At the same time the Chief or IC calls MA for additonal tankers from Shawanigan and Mill Bay FDs.

    FX Co was a little different, and I never did get to see FS412 set itself up at a fire, but they were one of the few stations that had a tanker and drop tanks.
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    We carry 2 3000 gallon ponds on our 3000 tanker and 1 3000 pond on our 8000 gallon tractor-trailer tanker. Our 2 3000 gallon engine-tankers do not carry ponds. We also operate 4 engines with 1000 gallon tanks equipped with quick dumps and fills.

    Most of our fires are in the rural areas, but we very rarely drop a pond. We generally run a nurse operation from the tankers/engine-tankers and our 1000 gallon engines with 1 0r 2 3" lines. That generally maintains an adequate supply as at most structure fires, we pull a maximum of 2 1.75 lines.

    We are discussing changing the SOP to a 4" for nurse operations. That is still in the discussion phase.

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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    We carry 2 3000 gallon ponds on our 3000 tanker and 1 3000 pond on our 8000 gallon tractor-trailer tanker. Our 2 3000 gallon engine-tankers do not carry ponds. We also operate 4 engines with 1000 gallon tanks equipped with quick dumps and fills.

    Most of our fires are in the rural areas, but we very rarely drop a pond. We generally run a nurse operation from the tankers/engine-tankers and our 1000 gallon engines with 1 0r 2 3" lines. That generally maintains an adequate supply as at most structure fires, we pull a maximum of 2 1.75 lines.

    We are discussing changing the SOP to a 4" for nurse operations. That is still in the discussion phase.
    Why not use the dumptank? If you needed to get the 2.5's off the truck for a larger fire. That way you don't get the elephant train going when you run out of water?

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    Simple answer.

    Manpower.

    One man, or the pump operator can stretch a 50' 3" of the bed and set it up for the incoming engine or tanker.

    3000 gallon dump tanks are heavy and unwieldy, and even pulling one out of the side mount compartment and setting it up requires 3 men. We have found that unless we have a fire that requires a large fire flow, such as a commercial structure, we can nurse pump plenty of water for the vast majority of our operations with 1 or 2 3" lines.

    We used to use them for primary supply at our bi-annual fire at the pallet factory, but now that we have 4" on all the engines, we have found that it's more efficient to relay pump from a hydrant 1500' feet away rather than use a tanker shuttle.

    We train on pulling the dump tank(s) frequently, but we do reserve it's use for larger incidents and the water shuttles for the rating.

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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    We carry 2 3000 gallon ponds on our 3000 tanker and 1 3000 pond on our 8000 gallon tractor-trailer tanker.
    I know I will probably regret this, but......

    Why would you carry (2) 3000 gallon each portable tanks on a 3000 gallon tanker and only (1) on your 8000 tanker? Like so much of the rest of your organizations operations, that's obviously backwards.
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    duplicate post.
    Last edited by MemphisE34a; 01-12-2009 at 05:58 PM.
    RK
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    Management is making sure things are done right. Leadership is doing the right thing. The fire service needs alot more leaders and a lot less managers.

    "Everyone goes home" is the mantra for the pussification of the modern, American fire service.


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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    Simple answer.

    Manpower.

    One man, or the pump operator can stretch a 50' 3" of the bed and set it up for the incoming engine or tanker.

    3000 gallon dump tanks are heavy and unwieldy, and even pulling one out of the side mount compartment and setting it up requires 3 men. We have found that unless we have a fire that requires a large fire flow, such as a commercial structure, we can nurse pump plenty of water for the vast majority of our operations with 1 or 2 3" lines.

    We used to use them for primary supply at our bi-annual fire at the pallet factory, but now that we have 4" on all the engines, we have found that it's more efficient to relay pump from a hydrant 1500' feet away rather than use a tanker shuttle.

    We train on pulling the dump tank(s) frequently, but we do reserve it's use for larger incidents and the water shuttles for the rating.

    OK, I can see your point here. Years ago, we would have the first Tanker pull up near the Attack Engine and supply him, and the other Tankers and engines would run back and forth trying to keep the Tanker filled. About 10-12 years ago, a change in Government brought on some folks who were not of the "We've ALWAYS done it this way" crowd, We started using folding tanks exclusively and haven't looked back. As I see it, Tankers are made for HAULING Water not STORING it. By using Folding Tanks, we're getting the most out of our investment in Tankers.
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    The dump tanks and the 8000 gallon tanker are there primarily for the rating's water shuttle.

    For the shuttle, the 3000 gallon tanker is the first tanker in, because of the location where we run the shuttle, behind the 2 closest engines. The 3000 gallon tanker offloads all the first ponds for the primary attack engine and the 8000 gallon tanker offloads the third pond for the secondary engine. All 3 ponds and 2 engines are required to meet our goal of 1800 gpm. The 8000 gallon tanker is actually listed on the card, according to distance as calculated by the rating service, as the second due tanker because it is housed at Central Station.

    The 8000 gallon tanker dumps it's first 3000 gallons in the second engine's pond, then moves up and dumps it's remainder in the second pond at the primary engine, and refills the first pond which took the water off the 3000 gallon tanker.

    In addition, the 8000 gallon tanker rarely rolls. It is used on commercial fires in the non-hydrated areas or low flow hydranted areas where there is room to maneuver it on the larger streets and in the parking lot.

    We do not run it on residential fires as we have 2 3000 gallon tanker/engines and 5 1000 gallon engines in addition to it, and there has not been a need for it. It has proven more effective to utilize 1 or 2 mutual aid tankers if more water is needed then to try to muscle it around on our small backroads.

    We have just added another 3000 gallon engine/tanker to our fleet through the annexation of a neighboring fire district which should further reduce the need for mutual aid tankers as well as the need for the 8000 gallon beast.
    Last edited by LaFireEducator; 01-12-2009 at 06:14 PM.

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    My department covers mainly flat farmland, and a small rural town. We cover 36 square miles, and have NO hydrants in any of our coverage area. We have a 2000 gallon tanker, an 1800 gallon tanker, and two engines that carry 1000 gallons. Usually on a working fire we will drop both tankers tanks next to the engine, dump water, then both tankers take off to the nearest hydrant (at least 7 miles in any direction!). Due to the tankers having to go so far to get water, we will usually start tankers from the three closest departments, this will bring in 6 extra tankers carrying 2000 gallons or more.

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    OK, I can see your point here. Years ago, we would have the first Tanker pull up near the Attack Engine and supply him, and the other Tankers and engines would run back and forth trying to keep the Tanker filled. About 10-12 years ago, a change in Government brought on some folks who were not of the "We've ALWAYS done it this way" crowd, We started using folding tanks exclusively and haven't looked back. As I see it, Tankers are made for HAULING Water not STORING it. By using Folding Tanks, we're getting the most out of our investment in Tankers

    Harve ....

    That was the system I was used to in the northeast, especially Vermont. Small, short wheel-based 1000-1500 gallon tanks dumping into ponds. Very few large tankers and pump-off nurse operations for very small incidents only.

    Different way of doing business here. Tankers are considered to be a minimum of 3000 gallons. Very few small tankers, though most rural commercial cab engines are equipped with dumps and quick fills so they can supplement the 3000's or get where the 3000's can't.

    Most operations here are pump offs as compared to dump-and-run.

    I was seeing something of trend towards slightly larger (2000-2500 gallon) tankers with pumps and an attack line or two when I left VT 6 years ago, but most departments still dumped-and-ran with smaller nurse tankers.

    Just about every rural department here has a tractor-trailer tanker. Very few of them use them very often. In fact, the rating folks implemented a new rule 2 years ago that the 8000's must sign on the air to at least 2 structure fires a year to be eligable to be used in the rating's water shuttle.

    We simply throw a driver in them for a minor call where we have plenty of manpower, have them go a mile or 2, and then the IC cancels them. It satisfies the requirement.

    They are for the rating to give you your initial flow water until mutual aid is allowed to arrive as calculated by road miles (and speed limits) from their station and the volunteer to the station response time of 3 minutes.

    We honestly don't have much a need for it, but it's all part of the game, and does come in handy on a few rare occasions.

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    Default Nurse or Dump

    I know of several departments that utilize 6,000 and 8,000 gal water tenders in south jersey.

    They usually nurse.

    Up north, we have some that will nurse with the first due tender, and shuttle the rest.

    Couple of points in regard to that:

    Quite a few fires will go out with the first thousand gal! On a good many residential fires or even light commercial you can put out a lot of fire with a few thousand gals. Think about it, a room and contents fire. How much water do you use?

    For instance. Our first due is 750 gal, second and third due are both 1000. Tender is 3000. So, without a shuttle, we can have 5750 availlable pretty quick.

    Especially if you are dealing with tight residential streets or areas that are not really easy to setup a good dump site.

    Many times, we'll lay a couple of hundred feet (or more!) of LDH to an intersection or driveway to allow for easy tender manuevering; set up 2 or 3 dump tanks (we go with a diamond configuration or a chevron); and then get the drafting engine in place. By the time that is setup, the engines on scene may be dry. Better to commit one tender and more than double their firefighting time while the dump site gets setup.

    Tender/tanker shuttle is an art. It really is, and if you've never done it before, it's sometimes a bit hard to imagine!
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    We are 90% rural and we use our dump tanks all the time I don't know what we would do without them. Our 2000 gal tanker has one on it and our engine carrys one also. Here in eastern Ohio we have a program called Tanker Task Force. TFT is where the IC can at any time call the dispatcher tell them to send TFT most time at least 8 to 10 tankers will show up from the surrounding area. But in the TFT there is 19 tankers and 7 engines. For us it has helped water is never a problem. We have had this program for about 6 years its been alot work to get everything to work right but we made it. Anyone else use something like this?

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    We don't use tanker task forces, per se.

    The parish here is simply not that organized. We receive rural water supply support primarily from 2 departments. One of those departments have 1500 gallon engines, but do not have dumps and direct fills so pumping off is required. The second has several 3000 gallon tankers available to us with pump off or dump off options. We use another in the northern part of our district which provides us with 3000 g. tankers.

    We will simply call dispatch and specify what we need. We will generally use one of our own engines if we decide we need to fill from a static source/dry hydrant.

    If we get everything up, we have 3 3000 gallon tankers or engine/tankers, and another 5 1000 gallon engines, all capable of dumping and rapid direct tank filling, so mutual aid tanker support is generally not needed for a mobile home or smaller site built home. Some of the larger homes being built would require tanker support to sustain water flow. In the case of a commercial fire, we would roll the 8000 gallon tractor-trailer nurse tanker.

    As I stated earlier, we have found that pumping off can be just as efficient as dumping off for most residental fires with 2-3 1.75" lines flowing. Dump tanks are the best route if larger flows are required, as long as all the vehicles involved in the shuttle has that ability.

    We have found that if we do use the 8000 g. TT tanker, it is more efficient to use a separate water source for it. We have found that ir does affect the timely rotation of the other apparatus in the shuttle.

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    At the VFD, every tanker in the county covers a dump tank that has a capacity of at least 400 gallons more than the capacity of the tank of the apparatus it's carried on. This means the dump tanks vary from 2250 to 3500 gallons. The standard tanker size for the county's tankers was 1800 gallons, then we got two 3000 gallon models, now the standard is 2500 gallons.

    The IC will assign a water supply officer (WSO) and generally the WSO will make the determination is the operation will require nurse ops or shuttle ops. If shuttle ops will be used, the first tanker will nurse the attack engine while it's tank is established, and the later arriving tankers will dump thier load into the tank. Depending on the complexity of the incident, the WSO might elect to establish additional tanks from the later arriving tankers also.

    At work, we have 3 "real" tankers (1000GPM/2500GWT) and two...well, fire apparatus with 1250 tanks and no dumps (disclaimer: these things are 20 years old and will be replaced soon). We have very few operations that require tankers, as we're a suburaban/urban department, so they don't always run as smoothly as rural ops do at home. We generally use nurse ops because we're a little more limited on staffing than we are at home. Not an excuse, just reality.

    Kramer, as for LaFire's 8000 gallon model not carrying drop tanks, this is very common for tractor trailer tankers. They're use to nurse the engines while the smaller tankers shuttle water to the big tanker. Much more efficient than trying to shuttle with the tractor trailer.
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    We are 95% urban with hydrants so we don't use them very often.

    Our tender (I gotta get in that habit) carries one 3000 gallon "Fold-a-Tank" on the side of the truck. We rarely use it because we have hydrants throughout except in two very small, very specific areas. In those areas, and in the winter months for the possibility of a frozen hydrant, the tender goes second out the door.

    I think the last time we dropped it was 3 years ago now.
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    We use our portable ponds all the time, whenever we have a real fire that will use more than 1500 gallons of water. Our first in has 1000 gallons, second and third both have the ponds and 1500 gallons of water. Depending on the situation the pond will either be set up by the first in truck or the second in will relay pump to the first. We use them enough that our guys can all set up to use two ponds together.

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    Post Tenders/Tankers/Dump Tanks/Port-a-Ponds and......

    Ya, I couldn't resist stirring the pot a lil bit with the title. Tankers/Tenders and the Dump Tank/port-A-Pond debates.

    My dept serves both hydranted and non hydrated areas. We have (2) 2,000 gallon um, err, I'll call em WATER HAULERS. Both have um, er-here we go again, canvas style portable pools. I think we do more mutual aid for "Water" than anything with them. Monday, both our apparatus made a road trip for a shuttle operation at a barn fire. Our 2 units were part of a 6 unit shuttle. We are normally less than 5 miles from a hydrant so we use hydrants as a first choice. Of course we could use one of our 10,000 lakes also if needed. We would just call in an engine for our pump source as most of the depts have just water haulers without pumps.

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