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    Quote Originally Posted by chiefengineer11 View Post
    Good point, but there may be exclusive rights agreements or patent protection involoved, too.
    They should not have any type of patent problems, since Pierce is only disassembling the Aerialscope and and putting it back together with new seals, bearings, wear pads, hoses, controls, etc. They are not building a completely new copy of the Aerialscope boom & bucket !!

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    Quote Originally Posted by WoodbridgeFFII View Post
    They should not have any type of patent problems, since Pierce is only disassembling the Aerialscope and and putting it back together with new seals, bearings, wear pads, hoses, controls, etc. They are not building a completely new copy of the Aerialscope boom & bucket !!
    I was thinking more in terms of the changes and improvements that were mentioned in an earlier post. From what I've been able to see, Pierce appears to be doing a nice job of refurbs on 'Scopes. But will they have access to the parts and technology needed to incorporate the changes?

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    Quote Originally Posted by WoodbridgeFFII View Post
    Sounds like you worked for the ( Baker Company) before they were sold to Seagrave .We had a engineer from Pierce Mfg look at our 75' Mack Scope last week and he said that they would never build on a single axle chassis !
    Thats a negative. I worked for Seagrave from 2003-07. I did see alot of the old Baker apparatus and designs though. Quite cool.

    And yeah, I forgot about the single rear and '75 scope setup (Mack CF, etc).... but in a refurb job, most of them are going from open-cab to enclosed and adding more options.... so it was tandems pretty much all the time. Refurb dept. pretty much handled the '75 conversions.... I did all the new stuff, some of the 75 and 95 Scopes and all of the standard aerials.

    Really enjoyed the job, crew on the floor was great to work with. Just got tired of the constant turnover of high-level mgmt, and felt like I had also hit a glass ceiling as far as advancement. Basically I was burnt out and needed a change. The hour commute one-way didn't help either. lol

    back to the scheduled programming!

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    EMDDieselPower - As in Electro-Motive?

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    You got it Chief.

    I worked for Wisconsin Central as a locomotive mechanic before I went to Seagrave. Now there was a job I liked even better than Seagrave. Got screwed out of that one by the Canadian National merger aka "takeover".

    I miss those big V-20s.... and the SDL-39s.

    Im now at Oshkosh in the Defense division.

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    Quote Originally Posted by EMDDieselPower View Post
    You got it Chief.

    I worked for Wisconsin Central as a locomotive mechanic before I went to Seagrave. Now there was a job I liked even better than Seagrave. Got screwed out of that one by the Canadian National merger aka "takeover".

    I miss those big V-20s.... and the SDL-39s.

    Im now at Oshkosh in the Defense division.
    Feel like working on some 12V278 Clevelands? Got a Navy ocean tug, diesel electric, in Little Creek, Va. that a bunch of us are restoring, could use some help on the mains. Coast Guard had the ship for a number of years, replaced the 3-268 auxiliaries with a 6-71 and two 12V71s. But the mains, yeah, we need help. For anyone familiar with "The Perfect Storm" this is ex USCGC Tamaroa, WMEC 166.

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    Chiefengineer11 forgot our website in his pathetically cheap plug- for anyone interested, please see www.zunimaritime.org

    And if you are a "myspace"-er, see our profile- http://www.myspace.com/atf95
    "Loyalty Above all Else. Except Honor."

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    Pierce can't replicate/refurb an Aerialscope for many of the above reasons mentioned.

    There are parts designed and built exclusively for the Aerialscope boom, that vendors are under contract not to sell to anyone else.

    There is also design patents and other legal issues pertaining to the boom.

    Fly a Pierce refurbed Aerialscope vs. a new Seagrave Aerialscope and you will see the difference, BIG TIME!


    Quote Originally Posted by Fyrtrks View Post
    Seth:

    As FWD Buff would say becareful if you see a black Crown Victoria following you around. The boys in Appleton think they invented refurbishing or was that the internet?
    LMAO!

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    Quote Originally Posted by WestTac1 View Post
    Pierce can't replicate/refurb an Aerialscope for many of the above reasons mentioned.

    There are parts designed and built exclusively for the Aerialscope boom, that vendors are under contract not to sell to anyone else.

    There is also design patents and other legal issues pertaining to the boom.

    Fly a Pierce refurbed Aerialscope vs. a new Seagrave Aerialscope and you will see the difference, BIG TIME!



    LMAO!
    I have seen Pierce install new ( electric reels, air system reels) on the Hershey,Pa Scope, I do not know who supplied them. Also Baker Equipment located in Va, & Pa, have some parts available for Baker aerialscopes. They now only build boom trucks for the phone company & electrical contractors!

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    Seth,

    I take it you're referring to refurbs that will include upgrades that have yet to be released from Seagrave. And these upgrades will allow the "new" 75 foot Aerialscope to be mounted on a single axles? You must have some inside info on Seagrave's newest Aerialscope release? Due out?

    It seems to me, that there's some confusion in here regarding refurbs vs. a new "yet to be released" aerialscope product from Seagrave.

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    Pelham Manor's tower ladder does not carry water so it's weight is much less then you think. They also have a basement under the apparatus bay so weight it a real issue in the design of the truck. As for braking, i am sure they have enough technology out there to make the thing stop. I ,like everyone else, cant wait to see this thing in person. Any idea when it's coming in? Summer? Fall?

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    Quote Originally Posted by WestTac1 View Post
    Pierce can't replicate/refurb an Aerialscope for many of the above reasons mentioned.

    There are parts designed and built exclusively for the Aerialscope boom, that vendors are under contract not to sell to anyone else.

    There is also design patents and other legal issues pertaining to the boom.

    Fly a Pierce refurbed Aerialscope vs. a new Seagrave Aerialscope and you will see the difference, BIG TIME!

    LMAO!
    Well, no kidding. Fly a brand new anything versus a twenty year old unit that has been refurbed.

    I am reasonably sure that a customer who owns an aerialscope and wants it refurbed will be able to get the parts to do so. Traditionally, the parts would go through the local Seagrave dealer to the shop doing the work. If Seagrave were to refuse to supply the parts for an existing unit it would be a serious mistake that would affect future sales for years to come.

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    You Pierce guys are really missing the point, I love Pierce as well as Seagrave.

    Pierce is keeping the 1970’s technology and “making things work” on there re-mounts…

    Seagrave on the other hand is updating the operating system to the new Aerialscope II’s systems which is state of the art technology along with some other big ticket items that I just will make your jaw drop !!…..

    Flying the new Pelham Manor Re-mount”, it will be a world of difference.

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    [QUOTE=WestTac1;1033471]You Pierce guys are really missing the point, I love Pierce as well as Seagrave.

    Pierce is keeping the 1970’s technology and “making things work” on there re-mounts…

    Seagrave on the other hand is updating the operating system to the new Aerialscope II’s systems which is state of the art technology along with some other big ticket items that I just will make your jaw drop !!…..

    Flying the new Pelham Manor Re-mount”, it will be a world of difference.[/QUOTEWill this new Aerialscope II be used by the ( FDNY ) for testing, or will they keep buying the old model ? Also will the price tag make your jaw drop !

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    ALL pricing makes MY jaw drop. T.C.

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    Quote Originally Posted by WoodbridgeFFII View Post
    Will this new Aerialscope II be used by the ( FDNY ) for testing, or will they keep buying the old model ? Also will the price tag make your jaw drop !
    The FDNY will recieve the latest in Aerialscope technology, and I believe their feedback helped to develop the next generation. There isn't going to be a radical visual difference, but the people who use it will be able to tell.

    As far as the price tag goes, you get what you pay for. It's not that expensive comparitvely, it's how you spec it. As for the Aerialscope, it's basically a crane with a bucket on the end. New York City buying hundreds of them for decades and numerous other departments using them and refubishing them religously speaks volumes......

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    I really don't get what the big deal is about there only being the one axle in the back. I would think it would make the truck easier to drive. Alot of you people need to worry about more important things like training and keeping guys from getting hurt.

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    Default speaking volumes...

    Actually, if you want to speak volumes about Aerialscope sales, they are a disaster.

    I DON"T have the actual sales figures, but my guess is that less than 20 new Aerialscopes are delivered a year throughout the US to anyone other than FDNY. I'd even guess my 20 unit figure is way high. Look on the Seagrave website for deliveries and orders. I think it might be closer to 3 or 4 per year. If that. And most of those go to the NYC burbs, Long Island and New Jersey.

    I bet there are a few Pierce and KME and E-One dealers who sell that many aerial devices all by themselves. I would bet that Pierce delivers more aerial devices in a week than Aerialscope sells in a year.

    That says nothing about how highly regarded the product is. Its awesome.

    If you want to speak volumes about the Aerialscope sales....they are very small volumes. Like almost not a factor in the apparatus market today.

    But they do make a great truck. They just can't seem to convince too many people to buy them.

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    Right on Dep! When we were looking at towers, we had convinced the City Council that if an Aerialscope could be had within $50K of the successful bidder it would be worth it. Of course they weren't within $150k!!! Only Peirce came close to Seagrave's price, but at least the Peirce was nearly on spec, the Scope was as stripped down as possible. Clearly $200k different between the ALF we bought and a similar Scope.

    Also the number 20 per year outside FDNY is pretty close. IIRC Scope builds like 12-14 75 footers and 4-9 95's per year.

    Finally, the Seagrave Scopes have not been greatly received by many customers, including FDNY. Many many issues came up in that last reworking of the boom. Hopefully a new fix will bring them back around.

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    As tempted as I am to not say a word, I will say a word.

    If you don't drink the Pierce kool-aid, thats okay. But don't trash one of their refurbished products unless you have used it.

    Our Aerialscope was refurbished by them 3 years ago and I don't have a single complaint about the way it flies (except maybe operator error?).

    The comment about them patching or re-using old technology is just plain silly. Our truck has brand new PQ controls on it. Thats not old technology. When we were shopping and snooping, Seagrave trucks were using the SAME CONTROLS (if they weren't multiplexed). And as far as multiplexing an aerial goes, the day will come when that is put to an end.

    All the technology that you use to "make it fly smooth" or "set up at the touch of a button" is crap if its broken and somebody is trapped, needing your truck. Ask people who bought the early KME Aerials. Yeah, they have over-rides. Thats not a sales point. Our PierceScope has over-rides and if it werent for continuous training (if thats even done), our operators would have no clue how to use it because its not necessary. The very limited sensor count and electric over hydraulic auto-interlock make our truck a lot more friendly than any Aerialscope made to that day. And maybe since.


    I guess my point is, shut up if you don't know what your talking about. If you do, lets have an intelligent conversation and maybe we can learn something from one another!

    Jon

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    Quote Originally Posted by chiefeng7 View Post
    I guess my point is, shut up if you don't know what your talking about. If you do, lets have an intelligent conversation and maybe we can learn something from one another!
    I think you should take your own advice.

    EDIT: I believe you know what you're talking about, and think that Pierce builds a great product, but the CAN NOT refurbish an Aerialscope presently to the exact specificfications of the OEM using the OEM parts, plus OEM design and OEM engineeers. And you can put an Pelham Manor's newly refurbished 'Scope that you claim is the same as you Pierce refurb, and then we shall see who knows what they're talking about in regards to this.
    Last edited by WestTac1; 02-12-2009 at 07:58 PM.

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    Post Single Axle Scope Brakes !

    Here is the only single rear axle Pierce refurb ever done ,because of the trucks weight they will no longer build on a single only tandem!
    Attached Images Attached Images  

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    I must have missed something in life,but I always thought the OPERATOR was what made a smooth ride not the type of controls it had.Automatic setup? WTF is that? Never had it on anything I ran. 'Scopes are nice,just a little out of our budgets reach. But if you can afford one.......T.C.

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    Quote Originally Posted by bigrig77 View Post
    Pelham Manor's tower ladder does not carry water so it's weight is much less then you think. They also have a basement under the apparatus bay so weight it a real issue in the design of the truck. As for braking, i am sure they have enough technology out there to make the thing stop. I ,like everyone else, cant wait to see this thing in person. Any idea when it's coming in? Summer? Fall?
    Quote Originally Posted by bigrig77 View Post
    I really don't get what the big deal is about there only being the one axle in the back. I would think it would make the truck easier to drive. Alot of you people need to worry about more important things like training and keeping guys from getting hurt.
    A famous Mark Twain quote: "It is better to keep your mouth closed and let people think you are a fool than to open it and remove all doubt."

    Some advice: Learn a little bit about the weight of scopes, some basic physics, and the mechanics of truck axles and brake systems. Then you will understand why some of us are concerned.
    "Loyalty Above all Else. Except Honor."

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    Who's concerned? How much does the 'Scope(and ONLY the 'scope) weigh? They built a schitload of these,with STEEL bodies,on old macks where the heaviest rear was probably a 29,with DRUM brakes,and NO jake. And I've never seen a bunch of them sitting on cars or wrapped around trees. Fast forward to today.31k rear with 22frt WITH discs,with Jake or retarder,and a ALUMINUM body. With a 95 I probably wouldn't. A 75' I still think is doable for MOST applications.AS LONG AS,you aren't loading it with water and a pump. Got more brake with a tandem,no question. But hey, everybody wants a tandem with fat front tires to go sliding around in the slush with. T.C.

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