1. #51
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    Another thing you have to look at is compartment loading. What are they limiting the equipment per compartment to? I know our new ladder truck came with a 1600# compartment loading. If they limit the compartment loading to say 500#/compartment they can take a lot of the assumed vehicle weight out of the vehicle. Now before everyone jumps on me for saying you can't carry every piece of equipment imaginable, think about what you NEED to carry on a ladder truck, a few fans, saws, lights, hooks and ladders. I would believe you could put a good amount of equipment on a truck and stay below 2000# very easily. Take the MFG's normal compartment loading of 1600# (with 4 compartments per side) and you come up 12,800 lbs. Reduce the comparment loading and you have 4,000lbs. That in itself is a huge weight savings. MFG's use compartment loading to figure GVWR. Just something to think about. I believe they can do it and have a very safe vehicle, use a telma with I a 21,000 front and a 33,000 rear (now available) and you have a 51,000 GVWR, I am pretty sure that a single axle 75' would work and not be unsafe. The pierce remount in the photo has 7 compartments per side that is a compartment loading of approximately 22,400lbs. 12 TONS of equipment!!! Change the compartment loading to 500lbs and you have 7,000lbs of equipment a 9.5 ton differnece! Tell me how many truck company's carry 12 tons of firefighting equipment.
    Last edited by 112411; 02-13-2009 at 03:56 PM.

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    112411,You do know that siding with me is going to make you a marked man,don't you? My purpose here is to basically crack that know it all Buff's stones. His dad is pretty sharp.I think jr fell off the tuna truck. Like I said earlier,there's places where you DON'T want a single x. But there is plenty more where it should work just fine.The items you brought up along with the ones I listed would certainly factor into feasibility. Or maybe the old Mack engineers knew something the modern day computer doesn't. T.c.

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    I think all that snow up there has frozen a brain cell or two.....Give CE11 a chance to pipe up, I bet he goes on the record agreeing with me that single axle scopes are a bit of a concern weightwise......Just remember who taught me everything I know TC!

    Additionally for the record, given certain items such as an aluminum body, a jake brake, and a maximum payload amount, I concede that a single axle scope may be do-able. Given the choice, I'll go twin screw any day of the week and twice on sunday! If maneuverability is that much of an issue, sounds like you need two steering wheels!

    And I dont know everything. Mrs Buff is the one who lays claim to that. Salesman tried to sell me a set of encyclopedias last week, I said "No thanks, I have a wife."
    "Loyalty Above all Else. Except Honor."

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    Ah,I can hear the sweet sound of those stones cracking from here. WITHOUT ice. "screws can be necessary but in slush they're a PITA particularly in aerial tower config with big rubber on front.I KNOW for a fact that our single X aerial will go where tandems won't.Doesn't much matter in under two months there's gonna be a big new 'screw parked in the "junkyard".With REALLY big front feet.Sounds like your wife and mine would get along just fine. Now about that Mack engineer? T.C.

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    Had to do a little research for this one. Single axle trucks have a sentimental appeal to me because for 10 out of my 12 years as an O/O I ran single axle tractors with about 35 - 40% bobtail miles. I think single axle 'Scopes are doable if you do everything you can to keep them lightweight. Also, the Mack engineers sharp as they are, may well have been working under the bumblebee principle.

    Mr. 112411 mentions using a 33,000 lb. drive axle along with a 21,000 lb steer. That's 54,000 total. I never weighed a 'Scope so I don't know if that's enough or not. But here's the kicker that I had to look up. The only tires that I could find to support that much weight on the drive would be 14.00R20 tube type. That would be Load Range "L" at 105 psi. The next closest is 12.00R24 which would give you 32,400 lbs. at 110 psi. Using the more common 315/80R22.5 tubeless gives a maximum of 31,000 lbs. at 120 psi. There's nothing in super singles that even comes close.

    Now I will certainly concede that in big cities, NYC in particular, the runs usually aren't that long and the speeds are actually quite slow when compared with us highwaymen. So there's tons of forgiveness there.

    Someone was getting into the difference in turning radii, single vs. tandem. Many people like to say that the turning radius pivot point on a tandem is the centerline of the bogie. I guess on a smooth level highway without a tight turn that's pretty close to right. But I believe that on bumpy roads with tight turns, the pivot point will be whichever axle has the most bite. The other one will scrub. And which one has the most bite could vary within any given turn.

    I like tandems not only because of the added weight capacity but also the added braking. In another thread a long time ago I mentioned the additional square inches of road surface contact (footprint) you get from 4 extra tires on the road and how I think that adds up to greater braking ablilty. Someone else came back and proceeded to tell me just how much BS I was full of and how the extra footprint didn't figure into the stopping ability equation. I don't remember if it was KuhShise or someone else, but it was someone with KuhShise's or SSIAerialmanTim's voluminous grasp of physics. I never fully digested (or marinated, as in the latest FiberOne TV commercial) what he said, so I never bought into it. I still think that the more square inches of braking surface that you have (friction material against rotating steel parts) equates to better braking and that the same applies to square inches of rotating rubber against road surface (friction material).

    I'll throw another one into the stew. Telma retarders are mentioned quite a bit. They reportedly do have monsterous retarding power. I never drove anything with one, so I can't say from experience. But so much are they supposed to have, I have to wonder about their reverse torque effect on the driveshaft and transmission. If they are that powerful, and someone applies it full power from free rolling, I'll bet you could make a mess out of some U-joints.

    So as much as singles appeal to me, on the balance I think I have to go with the screw.
    Last edited by chiefengineer11; 02-13-2009 at 11:30 PM.

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    Sam, what about the wheel hop we sometimes get on a tandem when you're braking hard?

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    Quote Originally Posted by RedBaronl32 View Post
    Sam, what about the wheel hop we sometimes get on a tandem when you're braking hard?
    Quite honestly, Tony, I'm not a good one to talk about that. The only tandem I owned was an F model Mack with a Mack camelback suspension. I think it was 34,000 lbs. The few others that I drove were either camelbacks or Reycos. If I had to guess, I'd think that was more characteristic of a Hendrickson walking beam suspension, with uneven brake adjustment and rough roads being triggers. Again I'm guessing, but I can visualize a fast stop, the forward axle wants to dig in, lifting the back axle, then it comes in for a landing and they rock back and forth. Blam, blam, blam.

    I can only think of one Hendrickson that I drove; it was a U model (cockeyed) Mack, ex-Ryder Truck Lines. It was a 60/40 split and the back axle wasn't powered. I'm sure some of the people in here with more freight hauling time could shed more knowledgeable light on the subject.

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    I'm OK with the 'screws for weight and braking.But having driven multitudes of versions here in the Northeast for half of my life,they absolutely suck in slippery weather compared to a single axle. And while I would probably favor one for a Scope project,I absolutely hate it when someone with limited knowledge of vehicles says "You Can't" particularly when it's already been done.Successfully. For years. So OBVIOUSLY,it CAN be done. Sam,part of the problem is the "new" Federal formulas on weight and balance. Combine that with the Cad programs that lean towards timid and there you have it. Being in the Towing game for 44 years plus I know A LOT about overloaded rigs and what you can and cannot do with them. On a PRIMARY move in this State,you can have enough weight on the drives to bust the portable scales,LEGALLY,as you're removing the hazard to a safe location.Put a overloaded TT on an underlift tow truck,what do you suppose happens to your steers,particularly in slippery weather? Hint: I wouldn't be doing seventy! In the Towing world,you can pick and go with a single axle where you couldn't pick and steer with a screw. That's why there were(and still are) a bunch of old Macks,Brocks,and Auto car single axle wreckers. Of course centipedes and air ride changed those rules also.You should see some of the loads I've moved with a L9000 single and a 20 to Weldbilt mechanical crane. Was it safe? Probably not.But we never hit anything either. You can do a lot if you don't hurry. Obviously this doesn't apply to Fire apparatus,outside of the overload factors. I know some of the loads that have been imposed on 12/24.5 and I think that's the way I'd go. I WOULD NOT take the gift of a tube tire(bomb). Just my two bits. T.c.

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    Maybe someone on the forum can come up with a cad drawing or specs on this " SUPER SEAGRAVE SINGLE AXLE SCOPE " that we are hearing about ?

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    Quote Originally Posted by WoodbridgeFFII View Post
    Maybe someone on the forum can come up with a cad drawing or specs on this " SUPER SEAGRAVE SINGLE AXLE SCOPE " that we are hearing about ?
    If you're patient, you'll see the drawing, photos, etc....when they are available to the public.

    This truck, keep in mind, will carry only the mininmal, basic truck company equipmnent. The primary focus is the Aerialscope boom on this truck.

    Also, let's not forget it's 2009, and there is a lot more technology, research, engineering, design, etc then there was when the last single axle 'Scopes were being built.

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    Great so we get a Metz/Scope hybrid. Finally something go compete with the Bronto for highest price! I can see sales in LI!

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    Quote Originally Posted by WestTac1 View Post
    If you're patient, you'll see the drawing, photos, etc....when they are available to the public.

    This truck, keep in mind, will carry only the mininmal, basic truck company equipmnent. The primary focus is the Aerialscope boom on this truck.

    Also, let's not forget it's 2009, and there is a lot more technology, research, engineering, design, etc then there was when the last single axle 'Scopes were being built.
    Do the Seagrave dealers have information on this new single axle aerialscope, because we will be sending out bids in a few months to refurb ours. All we got from Seagrave was a ballpark figure of $ 980,000 for a new bare bones 75' Aerialscope on a tandem axle with very little options!

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    Quote Originally Posted by RFDACM02 View Post
    Great so we get a Metz/Scope hybrid. Finally something go compete with the Bronto for highest price! I can see sales in LI!
    That would be equipped about the same as the Metz that everyone complains doesn't have the needed equipment.

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    Most fires will come to ground level if you wait long enough. Technolgically advanced: Yeah,there's something I want in a Platform. How about one that WORKS? Simply. Consistantly. THAT would be progress.

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    Quote Originally Posted by chiefengineer11 View Post
    That would be equipped about the same as the Metz that everyone complains doesn't have the needed equipment.
    That's exactly what I was thinking. A Scope with very limted tool compliment, sounds like a Metz with a decent sized bucket and upgraded masterstream capability!

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    Quote Originally Posted by RFDACM02 View Post
    That's exactly what I was thinking. A Scope with very limted tool compliment, sounds like a Metz with a decent sized bucket and upgraded masterstream capability!
    As long as it has a decent compliment of ground ladders!
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    Alright Knuckledraggers,PLEASE enlighten this country boy what constitutes a "truck". You show me yours,I'll show you mine.

    115' or more ground ladders
    10 plus KW generator & lights
    Vent saws & gas can
    Ladder pipe
    Rit bag
    salvage equipment
    ropes
    fans
    Forcible entry tools & hooks
    Stokes

    And please enlighten my WHY you can't fit the above items on a METZ 'cause I'm dying to know

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    Default Not Again......

    RFDACM02 Don't get sucked into this "Prove Metz can't.." crap!!! We have already beat this into the ground in other threads! Let's move on!!

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    Quote Originally Posted by TruckGuy View Post
    RFDACM02 Don't get sucked into this "Prove Metz can't.." crap!!! We have already beat this into the ground in other threads! Let's move on!!
    Sorry, I have nothing to prove, merely making a light hearted joke. People need to QTIP.

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    I'm not the one who brought it up (Metz/scope)and take the Metz out of the equasion if you wish. What constitutes a TRUCK? Outside of the items I mentioned? Yes,it's been brought up before but I don't remember any really OUTSTANDING answers. At least nothing I would consider a regional,much less a statewide answer. As I'm about to outfit a "REAL" TRUCK,I really want to know if I'm missing something.
    Last edited by Rescue101; 02-15-2009 at 09:52 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by FWDbuff View Post
    A famous Mark Twain quote: "It is better to keep your mouth closed and let people think you are a fool than to open it and remove all doubt."

    Some advice: Learn a little bit about the weight of scopes, some basic physics, and the mechanics of truck axles and brake systems. Then you will understand why some of us are concerned.
    Then enlighten us. How much does Pelham Manor's ladder weight? now i don't want to know what they usually weight i want to know what THIERS weights.

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    Oh, I can't wait until this becomes official, because I hope there is video posted on YouTube of you people taking your foots out of your mout.

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    Until WHAT becomes official?Electronics on a 'scope? Single X on a "scope? T.C.
    Last edited by Rescue101; 11-23-2009 at 11:01 AM.

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    Dare I say, I won't be surprised to see a single screw Scope. But, I don't see to many people here tasting their toes until 2-3 years of these new Scopes being in the field. There are dead carcasses of new apparatus ideas strew about the country. In fact the Seagrave Towermax may become of of these. BTW anyone the picture on the FH.com front page story of the FD that burned in Cambria, NY? Was that an E-One rescue pod aerial?

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    Quote Originally Posted by bigrig77 View Post
    Then enlighten us. How much does Pelham Manor's ladder weight? now i don't want to know what they usually weight i want to know what THIERS weights.
    "Some advice: Learn a little bit about the weight of scopes, some basic physics, and the mechanics of truck axles and brake systems. Then you will understand why some of us are concerned."

    Now granted, from the mispellings and poor grammatical composition of your post, it would appear that you have a hard time with the english language. What part of the above statement confused you? Did I use words with too many syllables? Let me know and I will try to clarify for you.
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