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  1. #1
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    Post Pelham Manor's Aerialscope

    There is news that the Pelham Manor Fire dept will be sending there old Mack 75' Scope out to Seagrave Fire apparatus to get remounted on a ( Single Axle) chasiss cab. How can they rebuild the truck with a O.A.L. of 38' and keep it the same with a new 4 door cab ? Anyone have info.

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    Are you sure about the single axle???? Somehow I am doubting it...

    -Axle weight restrictions

    -Baker having issued orders years ago forbidding the further use of single axle chassis due to braking issues
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    I'm thinking a triple frame rail system would give it strength, however even with a large rear axle chances are that unit will need an overweight permit.

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    Quote Originally Posted by FWDbuff View Post
    Are you sure about the single axle???? Somehow I am doubting it...

    -Axle weight restrictions

    -Baker having issued orders years ago forbidding the further use of single axle chassis due to braking issues
    They say that this will be the first one built by Seagrave on a single rear axle, maybe a 33,000 lb rear on a two door cab ? I found the topic on EMTBravo.net
    Last edited by WoodbridgeFFII; 01-12-2009 at 07:26 PM.

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    Hey I could be wrong, I've been wrong before, but on this one....I'm gonna throw down the bullschit flag. I'll believe it when I see it. Scopes are just too damn heavy for one axle.

    I am going to send an email to a friend of mine who is an engineer in Clintonville and ask him about it.
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    Buff, maybe just BYOB?

    (Bring Your Own Body - the body, crew cab, and all ladders & equipment come on a different truck, due to weight)

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    Think about it Blitz....If you are Seagrave, and you remount onto a single axle chassis, and then said unit runs over a minivan containing a family in an intersection because it could not stop (and Seagrave knew it could not stop....)......See where I am going with this??

    Like I said, I could be wrong.....But my instinct wont let me bite onto this one!
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    Yes, I agree with you, Buff - I was joking with my last comment (trying to say that the only way I could see it working would be to take everything but the aerial off, to save on weight - not seriously).

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    Quote Originally Posted by BlitzfireSolo View Post
    Yes, I agree with you, Buff - I was joking with my last comment (trying to say that the only way I could see it working would be to take everything but the aerial off, to save on weight - not seriously).
    10-4, K!!!!!
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    Quote Originally Posted by FWDbuff View Post
    10-4, K!!!!!
    Do you know what the weight of a Seagrave 75' meanstick with a full water tank is, built on a single axle. I think a rebuilt 75 ' Scope is over ( 60,000 LBS ) ? The whole story on that web site sounds like bull to me !
    Last edited by WoodbridgeFFII; 01-13-2009 at 07:05 PM.

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    Big rear with big discs and a frt to match.No reason it isn't doable.SAFELY. Exception might be extremely mountainous terrain.We're at 44 plus with our Engine on a single with drums and it stops nicely.Food for thought. T.C.

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    I used to build these things for a living and the Scopes were heavy enough on the tandems.... I cant imagine one with single rears.... nor would I want to. And definitely forget a 95' ever being single rear.

    IIRC.... All of the Scopes I saw grossed over 70k.... I dont ever remember one being under 70k. I do know we had a couple units go out with overweight permits to get delivered out East.... (over 80k).

    Its been a couple years... so my memory is kinda foggy on all this... but I do remember the damn things were HEAVY. Also most of my work consisted of the Aerials side of the line (turntables, setups, and testing).

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    Default Keyword "OLD"

    If the "old" scope at Pelham Manor is a 75' unit it could easily be put on a single rear axle chassis. Through the 70's and 80's the 75' Scope on a single rear axel chassis was a common apparatus.

    With the axles and braking systems available today along with great improvments and options in secondary braking (Telma Retarders, Transmisson Retarders) placing a 75' Scope on a single rear axle chassis should not be a problem, especially if the unit is not equipped with a pump and tank.

    A weight analysis buy Seagrave engeineers could easily answer all of these questions. I am sure you guys have probably sat down and done the math on all of this before condemming this vehicle as unbuildable.

    The tandem rear axles came into play when most departments bought 95' Scopes which require tandem axles because of the weight. A 95' Seagrave Scope in service with tools and equipment mounted in the vehicle, but without firfighters in the cab weights between 70,000 and 71,000 pounds, this is by actual measurment.

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    My thoughts are that the front axle would be the problem. They don't have the high weight ratings and that's where most of the brake action happens. I don't even think the Tak4 front axle from P----- could handle that much weight. Whats the structural warranty (years) on the chassis?
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    Post Tandems Only!

    Quote Originally Posted by EMDDieselPower View Post
    I used to build these things for a living and the Scopes were heavy enough on the tandems.... I cant imagine one with single rears.... nor would I want to. And definitely forget a 95' ever being single rear.

    IIRC.... All of the Scopes I saw grossed over 70k.... I dont ever remember one being under 70k. I do know we had a couple units go out with overweight permits to get delivered out East.... (over 80k).

    Its been a couple years... so my memory is kinda foggy on all this... but I do remember the damn things were HEAVY. Also most of my work consisted of the Aerials side of the line (turntables, setups, and testing).
    Sounds like you worked for the ( Baker Company) before they were sold to Seagrave .We had a engineer from Pierce Mfg look at our 75' Mack Scope last week and he said that they would never build on a single axle chassis !

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    My companys Aerialscope(Baker) is a 75' with pump, 250 gwt, and 1000' of 5" with other hose's, tool's, and ladder's came in at around 62,500 lbs. and it is rated to max at 73,500 lbs.


    Also is this on Michael Martinelli FDNY Truck site. I think it might still be using the Mack chassis with a Pierce cab.
    http://www.fdnytrucks.com/images/oth...thfieldT10.jpg

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    Look back at how many 75's were built on single axles.Quite a few.And that was BEFORE the advent of the big rotored discs.A lot of the early single axle 75's didn't have engine brakes either.Not saying it would be my first choice but I think on heavy/heavy with discs and a Jake or a retarder you could still get a safe rig.Depends on how many kitchen sinks you want also. Short "screw" will give you better braking and a reasonable turning radius no question. T.C.

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    This WILL be a reality.

    It will be the first of it's kind for Seagrave, and will be a revolutionary product for their Aerialscope brand. It will include the next generation of Aerialscope "inner workings". This is going to be a very simple truck, and not have very many "bells and whistles.

    Also, Pelham Manor has an OLD firehouse. Their is a basement, and their firehouse apparatus floor has height and weight restrictions. Therefore, the truck cannot exceed a certain weight. And, Pelham Manor needs the aerialscope, and it's been used in many capacities over it's lifespan.

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    I was told by a fire department in Pa, that there new Pierce 75' aerialscope when completed will be 59,000 lbs. on a tandem rear axle !

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    Quote Originally Posted by WoodbridgeFFII View Post
    I was told by a fire department in Pa, that there new Pierce 75' aerialscope when completed will be 59,000 lbs. on a tandem rear axle !
    The problem with Pierce doing a refurb of an Aerialscope is that they aren't using true Aerialscope parts. Seagrave won't sell to Pierce. So, if you're getting an Aerialscope refurbed by Pierce, you won't be able to take advantage of the next generation Aerialscope features (the bucket flys very smooth, and a lot more has been improved upon that Pierce can't replicate in their refurb facility)

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    any drawings?

    Also is it going to be a four door cab?

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    Default Oh my!

    Seth:

    As FWD Buff would say becareful if you see a black Crown Victoria following you around. The boys in Appleton think they invented refurbishing or was that the internet?

    It sounds like it will be a interesting piece of fire apparatus.
    Fyrtrks

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    For like the fifth time! Al Gore invented the internet!!!!!!!!!

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    Post Pierce Refurb !

    I think Pierce rebuilds a very good apparatus, but will it run as smooth as a Seagrave scope ? I am sure that Pierce can purchase parts from the same vendor that Seagrave uses. I don't think that they build everything from scratch !
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    Last edited by WoodbridgeFFII; 08-16-2010 at 10:41 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by WoodbridgeFFII View Post
    I think Pierce rebuilds a very good apparatus, but will it run as smooth as a Seagrave scope ? I am sure that Pierce can purchase parts from the same vendor that Seagrave uses. I don't think that they build everything from scratch !
    Good point, but there may be exclusive rights agreements or patent protection involoved, too.

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