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    Default Response to Structure fires

    I'm sure I've posted this once before but can't find it so....

    I was wondering what other departments would consider a minimum response to a structure fire. Specifically, how many firefighters, how much hose, how large of a pump. I'm not really interested in how your department actually responds but more what you would personally consider the minimum response to be. The reason I'm asking is that our first out truck has been/could be a 2500 gallon tanker with a 2-300 gpm pump (even our FC can't tell me what the pump is rated for), 1 BA, 1 200ft pre-connect and a ladder. Our second truck would be a rescue unit with 2-4 firefighters, 4 BA, extra air tanks and some hand tools.

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    If you are refering to an area with out hydrants (based on a tanker unit) a minimum of 14 firefighters would be neede for initial attack. we send a min pumper 840gpm pump with foam to the cross lays with 2 ff, followed by pumper tanker with 4 ff, 1000gallons of water and 2 SCBA, then tanker 3000gallons of water. then a rescue with ideally atleast 6ff with SCBA.
    I personally dont beleiev that a 2-300gpm pump is adequate for your first out unit. hope this helps.

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    Since you're rolling a tanker, I'm assuming you're in a rural area. Personally, I don't think 2-300GPM is going to cut it. I know that in most situations, we don't use more than two 1-3/4" pre-connects (400GPM total) but there is the chance that we could need more lines or the deluge gun. I'm thinking minimum pump should be at least 750GPM, if not 1250GPM.

    You also mention that the first in truck only has one SCBA. WTH is that one firefighter going to do while he waits on the other truck? First in truck needs to have at least a bare, absolute minimum of two SCBA, but I'd prefer at least four.

    I also have issues with running a tanker first, because once it gets there, it's stuck providing for fireground operations. Tankers need to be able to shuttle water.

    That said, we run an engine (1250GPM, 1000 gallon tank) with four SCBA seats, followed by a 3000 gallon tanker and a 2500 gallon tanker, each with one SCBA seat. Engine commences operations while the firefighters on each tanker forms the RIT team on arrival.
    Last edited by simpleguy68; 01-27-2009 at 10:47 AM.

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    I agree with simpleguy. Although 2-300 gpm will handle a small room and contents, you are very likely to need more gpm for anything more than that. As also mentioned, 1 SCBA doesn't provide manpower to do anything except throw ladders and put water in through the window.

    Also mentioned that a tanker should be shuttling water, not sitting at the fire scene.

    We run a 1500 gpm/750 gal pumper with 5 SCBA's first out the door, followed by a 2500 gal tanker (as needed) and the ambulance. Our heavy rescue squad will also be going when it gets placed in service later this summer. In addition, we get 3 more engines, another special service (truck), and another tanker if needed automatically from neighboring departments.

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    First out the door is a 2000 gpm rescue engine with 1000 gallons of water and 30 gallons of Class A foam. It carries 1475 feet of 5 inch hose, 1000 feet of 3 inch hose, and 1200 feet of 2 inch hose. It also has a top mounted deck gun and an Elkhart Ram pocket monitor.

    Depending if it is a hydranted area or not sets the second rig.

    Hydranted areas gets a 1000 gpm engine with 500 gallons of water and 20 gallons of Class B foam. It carries 1075 feet of 5 inch hose, 700 feet of 3 inch hose and 800 feet of 2 inch hose.

    Non-hydranted areas get the 1000 gpm tanker with 1500 gallons of water and 3 gallons of Class A foam. It carries 1075 feet of 5 inch hose, 450 feet of 3 inch hose, and 600 feet of 2 inch hose.

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    The reason I'm asking is that our first out truck has been/could be a 2500 gallon tanker with a 2-300 gpm pump (even our FC can't tell me what the pump is rated for), 1 BA, 1 200ft pre-connect and a ladder.
    Sounds to me like all you are expecting to do is protect exposures at a fire...so your response is fine for that.
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    Our Minimum Response for a Structure Fire is Four Pumpers, (Minimum 1,000 GPM/500 Tanks) Two Ladder Trucks (Minimum 100 Feet) 1 Heavy Rescue, and a Chief. Add 2 Tankers in non-hydrant areas (Minimum 2,500 Gallon Tanks/1,000 gpm Pumps/3,000 Gallon Drop Tanks) Working Fire gets 1 ALS and 1 BLS Ambulances, Safety Officer, Another Chief. As noted, This is the MINIMUM Response, quite often, these numbers go up a bit. We haven't specified a Minimum number of people, but each Apparatus should have Four. All Apparatus in this State must Minimum Requirements for size of Pump, Tank, Ladders, Hose, Small Tools, SCBA, etc. Far Too much to post here. One Point - You mentioned a Tanker - Ours Must carry a Drop Tank that is 500 Gallons Larger that the Tank Size of the unit that carries it, as well as be equipped with large dump valves. Tankers Shuttle Water. LOTS of Water. Fast. That's a requirement.
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    Quote Originally Posted by dafman View Post
    I'm sure I've posted this once before but can't find it so....

    I was wondering what other departments would consider a minimum response to a structure fire. Specifically, how many firefighters, how much hose, how large of a pump. I'm not really interested in how your department actually responds but more what you would personally consider the minimum response to be. The reason I'm asking is that our first out truck has been/could be a 2500 gallon tanker with a 2-300 gpm pump (even our FC can't tell me what the pump is rated for), 1 BA, 1 200ft pre-connect and a ladder. Our second truck would be a rescue unit with 2-4 firefighters, 4 BA, extra air tanks and some hand tools.
    What else do you have in your station?


    Don

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    We run 2 engines (min of 4 personnel each 1500 gpm, 750 tanks) 2 trucks (4 man min) and one medic (ff staffed, 3 man). All of the 1st Alarm is usally 8 minutes to arrive.

    19 personnel for a standard structural response. This is both for residential and commercial (i'd like to see at least 1 more engine for multifamily and commercial fires)

    These are automatic from dispatch and do not wait for the OIC to call when it comes in as smoke or fire showing. Our area is reliant on M/A due to only 8-9 man staffing in my department.

    I highly suggest the automatic dispatching of 1st alarms vs. OIC calling... I works out much better then when we've had to "make the call" for aid.

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    Our standard response for any "Fire" call, which includes reported/confirmed structures, alarms, etc. is (in order) Engine: 1050pump, 1000 gal. water, 5 seats (4 SCBA), min. 4 man crew, usually get 5. Ladder/Quint: 65 FT stick, 1050, 100 gal. 5 seat(4 SCBA), min. 4 crew, usually 5. Rescue: 5 seat (3 SCBA), min 4 crew, usually 5, carries 2 more SCBA on slide out rack, and 3 more in cases. Service truck: 5 seats, manpower only. MA if required.

    Rural response replaces the ladder with a 2 man 3000 gal tanker with 2 1550 gal drop tanks, and small 300 GPM pump. MA is used for additional engines, as the ladder will stay in town with a crew to cover any responses, with additional MA if required.

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    Another thread where someone new asks a specific question and hasn't been back since asking it 2 weeks ago.

    As far as the question goes, I am not so sure any of you have really answered it. He hasn't asked what you send to a first alarm assignment, but what would you consider the absolute minimum.

    Of coarse there are way to many variables to accurately answer such a question, but relatively speaking for a standard residential dwelling I would consider the minimum to be 500 gallons of water, a 1000 gpm pump, and 4 people that will work on one engine, backed up by one more just like it.
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    Let me add this:

    Departments that send multiple pieces of apparatus, usually all top of the line with 2000 gpm pumps and all the latest gadgets, a platform, and a heavy rescue loaded to the gills - all with one or two guys on them are RETARDED.

    As you add personnel to your compliment, fully staff a single company then move on to the next one. Four guys on a single pumper will be able to do more than 4 guys showing up on four different pieces regardless of how nice they are.
    RK
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    "Everyone goes home" is the mantra for the pussification of the modern, American fire service.


    Comments made are my own. They do not represent the official position or opinion of the Fire Department or the City for which I am employed. In fact, they are normally exactly the opposite.

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    Why roll in with tanker 1st? that should be your 2nd/3rd piece in!

    You should always roll in with engine first with minimum 5 guys (including driver). 2 guys grab line and go in, while other 2 grab 2nd line as back up.

    2nd piece in should be a truck crew (5 guys as well including driver). Get on the roof for ventilation, or do a search. or both!

    Always remember...teams of 2!

    Your 2nd piece should also being hitting a hydrant (if accessible). if not, this is where your tanker (3rd piece) comes into play. Your tanker now acts as a hydrant but for a limited amount of time.

    By now, you should be having a 4th piece setting up a draft somewhere, and mutual aid from surrounding towns coming in with their tankers. A pool should be set up at the fire scene and a tanker shuttle should be established from fire scene to draft site.

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    Also,...you should seriously consider posting this on FirefightingTactics.com because this kind of stuff is exactly what that site is used for.

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    Quote Originally Posted by MemphisE34a View Post
    Let me add this:

    Departments that send multiple pieces of apparatus, usually all top of the line with 2000 gpm pumps and all the latest gadgets, a platform, and a heavy rescue loaded to the gills - all with one or two guys on them are RETARDED.

    As you add personnel to your compliment, fully staff a single company then move on to the next one. Four guys on a single pumper will be able to do more than 4 guys showing up on four different pieces regardless of how nice they are.
    This is an easy point of veiw to have when your department has always operated this way, but when you are in a transition mode department wide, it is hard to see it that way. My career department went from 6 engine companies to 16 in roughly a year. All companies are staffed with a minimum of 2 guys on the truck, sometimes 3 when the captains are working.

    In the rural areas, having 2 engines with 4 guys is much better than all personnel on 1 truck simply becuase by the time the first in officer has a walkaround done, packed up and got a line pulled, the second in truck will be arriving with another 1000 gallons of water.

    That being said, the more guys you have on a truck the better, but we are making do now with what we have. Hopefully will be at 3 man engine companies by next year.

    Once again, this is just how we do things and it works well for us. What works here would probably not work in Memphis and vise-versa.
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    Quote Originally Posted by MemphisE34a View Post
    Let me add this:

    Departments that send multiple pieces of apparatus, usually all top of the line with 2000 gpm pumps and all the latest gadgets, a platform, and a heavy rescue loaded to the gills - all with one or two guys on them are RETARDED.

    As you add personnel to your compliment, fully staff a single company then move on to the next one. Four guys on a single pumper will be able to do more than 4 guys showing up on four different pieces regardless of how nice they are.


    I see what you are saying and definitely agree with you, but sometimes you need to get a certain minimum of equipment there. Heavy Rescues and Ladder trucks are useless without proper staffing, but an Engine can be useful with only an operator. If you have 1 engine, throwing a guy or two on the second engine can let you lay out and then pump back to the base pumper. Also if you have no hydrants at all, that second engine with 1000 gallons or tanker with 2000 added to your water tank can be enough to put out a good amount of fire.

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    Do I have those 4 guys respond with a truck (and have no engine/pump) or do I have them respond with an engine (and have no ladders)?



    or do I have 2 bring the truck and 2 bring the engine so I have all that equipment on scene instead of sitting in a firehouse?
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    Quote Originally Posted by BessemerJ View Post
    Why roll in with tanker 1st? that should be your 2nd/3rd piece in!

    You should always roll in with engine first with minimum 5 guys (including driver). 2 guys grab line and go in, while other 2 grab 2nd line as back up.

    2nd piece in should be a truck crew (5 guys as well including driver). Get on the roof for ventilation, or do a search. or both!

    Always remember...teams of 2!

    Your 2nd piece should also being hitting a hydrant (if accessible). if not, this is where your tanker (3rd piece) comes into play. Your tanker now acts as a hydrant but for a limited amount of time.

    By now, you should be having a 4th piece setting up a draft somewhere, and mutual aid from surrounding towns coming in with their tankers. A pool should be set up at the fire scene and a tanker shuttle should be established from fire scene to draft site.

    Great textbook answer, but won't always work around here. 5 guys on a piece would be a luxury some days. Better to roll with 3 than to let the house burn. Trucks aren't always available early in the incident and staffing is usually 3.

    I did notice that you have the truck hitting the hydrant in the above listing. Do you operate quiints? If it's at the hydrant, what good is the aerial?

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    First - we roll equipment with driver and have personell show up via POV so manpower is always increasing. (known numbers via radio)

    For a structure fire - first out is a 1250gpm, 1000 gal CAFS pumper with 7 SCBA's, 2 TIC's. Next out is either a 3000 gal tanker or 1000 gpm, 1000 gal CAFS pumper with 6 more SCBA's and another TIC. 3rd is the heavy rescue with 6 more SCBA's, 1 more TIC and the air cascade. 4th would be the 2nd pumper if the tanker rolled. We don't run 'trucks'. If we need an arial, its mutual aid.

    The idea is to make sure the required equipment gets onscene. Manpower can come from many areas and there is nothing worse than showing up with 10 guys and no equipment.

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    Quote Originally Posted by GTRider245 View Post
    This is an easy point of veiw to have when your department has always operated this way, but when you are in a transition mode department wide, it is hard to see it that way. My career department went from 6 engine companies to 16 in roughly a year. All companies are staffed with a minimum of 2 guys on the truck, sometimes 3 when the captains are working.
    You have 16 stations with single engine companies or 16 engines in fewer houses? If it is 16 stations staffed with 2 people per engine, I firmly believe you could provide a better and safer service with 8 engines staffed with 4 people each. Oh yeah, I haven't always worked for Memphis. I started out in a house town like many others.

    Quote Originally Posted by GTRider245 View Post
    In the rural areas, having 2 engines with 4 guys is much better than all personnel on 1 truck simply becuase by the time the first in officer has a walkaround done, packed up and got a line pulled, the second in truck will be arriving with another 1000 gallons of water.
    I agree with you on this point, but I believe what you are referring to is a single, two piece company.

    Quote Originally Posted by GTRider245 View Post
    Once again, this is just how we do things and it works well for us. What works here would probably not work in Memphis and vise-versa.
    Understood, best of luck.
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    Quote Originally Posted by nameless View Post
    I see what you are saying and definitely agree with you, but sometimes you need to get a certain minimum of equipment there. Heavy Rescues and Ladder trucks are useless without proper staffing, but an Engine can be useful with only an operator. If you have 1 engine, throwing a guy or two on the second engine can let you lay out and then pump back to the base pumper. Also if you have no hydrants at all, that second engine with 1000 gallons or tanker with 2000 added to your water tank can be enough to put out a good amount of fire.
    As stated, I don't disagree with two piece companies where the crew is split between vehicles in the same house and everyone is showing up for the most part at the same time.
    RK
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    "Everyone goes home" is the mantra for the pussification of the modern, American fire service.


    Comments made are my own. They do not represent the official position or opinion of the Fire Department or the City for which I am employed. In fact, they are normally exactly the opposite.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bones42 View Post
    Do I have those 4 guys respond with a truck (and have no engine/pump) or do I have them respond with an engine (and have no ladders)?



    or do I have 2 bring the truck and 2 bring the engine so I have all that equipment on scene instead of sitting in a firehouse?
    This answer is very simple. You obviously take the engine first for two reasons:

    1. Ever put a fire out with ladders?
    2. All engines carry a minimum of compliment of ladders anyway so you wouldn't have to completely do without.

    I will also clarify that I was referring to paid departments. I understand that volunteer departments may roll with a Driver and everyone else go POV or they may roll with minimum staffing and let later arriving personnel bring the next truck out.
    RK
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    Management is making sure things are done right. Leadership is doing the right thing. The fire service needs alot more leaders and a lot less managers.

    "Everyone goes home" is the mantra for the pussification of the modern, American fire service.


    Comments made are my own. They do not represent the official position or opinion of the Fire Department or the City for which I am employed. In fact, they are normally exactly the opposite.

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    We operate 16 seperate engine companies.

    8 of those companies are single engine staffed with 2 personnel.
    2 of those companies are single enine and single ladder satffed with 4 personnel. 2 guys per truck.
    1 company is single engine, single rescue and single wildland unit staffed with 3.
    1 company is single engine and single wildland, staffed with 2.
    2 companies are single engine, single tanker and single wildland. Staffed with 2.

    So, the majority of the time we have an engine riding out with 2 personnel. Our captains work 7-4 M-F, so sometimes we run 3 to a truck.

    The stations with wildland trucks may go out of service for a wildland call. One man takes the truck and the other stays on the engine until coverage is arranged. If a call occurs in the time in between, the one man will respond with the engine and a backup engine will be sent to assist.

    For the stations with tankers, more times than not if the tanker is rolling so is the engine from that station, so one man will take each. They both get to the scene at the same time with 2 peices of apparatus and 4 times the water.

    Operating this way often means trucks are even more understaffed than they already are, but we manage it well. Hopefully going to 3 man companies will solve alot of these issues.
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    Quote Originally Posted by GTRider245 View Post
    We operate 16 seperate engine companies.

    8 of those companies are single engine staffed with 2 personnel.
    2 of those companies are single enine and single ladder satffed with 4 personnel. 2 guys per truck.
    1 company is single engine, single rescue and single wildland unit staffed with 3.
    1 company is single engine and single wildland, staffed with 2.
    2 companies are single engine, single tanker and single wildland. Staffed with 2.

    So, the majority of the time we have an engine riding out with 2 personnel. Our captains work 7-4 M-F, so sometimes we run 3 to a truck.

    The stations with wildland trucks may go out of service for a wildland call. One man takes the truck and the other stays on the engine until coverage is arranged. If a call occurs in the time in between, the one man will respond with the engine and a backup engine will be sent to assist.

    For the stations with tankers, more times than not if the tanker is rolling so is the engine from that station, so one man will take each. They both get to the scene at the same time with 2 peices of apparatus and 4 times the water.

    Operating this way often means trucks are even more understaffed than they already are, but we manage it well. Hopefully going to 3 man companies will solve alot of these issues.
    Does your department use Volunteers??......... This would seem like a place for them.
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