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  1. #21
    Forum Member TNFF319's Avatar
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    Surprise surprise FDNY and NYPD did a great job Bravo to the pilot and crew. I never thought the death toll would be 0.
    FF/Paramedic


  2. #22
    Forum Member nmfire's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GeorgeWendtCFI View Post
    From what I can see, this is going to be one of the biggest miracles in US aviation history. Pilot seems to be the hero.

    Usual professionalism and competence exhibited by FDNY and NYPD.
    X2 without a doubt.
    Even the burger-flippers at McDonald's probably have some McWackers.

  3. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by CaptainGonzo View Post
    Captain Sullenberger probably didn't have enough altitude to make it to Teterboro. An aircraft without power essentially becomes a glider.

    Glide ratio comes into play. Glide ratio is the distance an aircraft will travel forward, without power, for example, with a glide ratio of 10:1. an aircraft will travel 10,000 feet of horizontal (1.6 nautical miles) distance for every 1000 feet of altitude lost in the descent. Seeing that he just took off out of LaGuardia, he probabaly didn't have enough altitude to make it to Teterboro. Other factors would be the aircraft's configuration (landing gear up, flaps, etc.), headwinds, etc. The A320 has a 17:1 glide ratio

    Captain Sullenberger and his copilot did one a hell of a job.. consider the alternative of the aircraft going down over Manhattan...
    Teterboro has some short runways, too. Not really built for that aircraft. It is a miracle that this landing worked out the way it did.
    PROUD, HONORED AND HUMBLED RECIPIENT OF THE PURPLE HYDRANT AWARD - 10/2007.

  4. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by GeorgeWendtCFI View Post
    Teterboro has some short runways, too. Not really built for that aircraft. It is a miracle that this landing worked out the way it did.
    Another thing to consider.. without power, landing is a one shot deal.

    These are the runways at Teterboro..

    Runway's & Taxiways: The airport consists of a two-runway configuration: Runway 1-19 (North/South) is 7,000 feet long and Runway 6-24 (NE/SW) is 6,015 feet. The facility offers both visual non-precision and "all weather" precision landing capabilities. The airport is a 24-hour public use facility, although it adheres to a voluntary nightly curfew from 12:00 AM to 6:00 AM.

    Runway 6-24 is 6,015 feet long and 150 feet wide, equipped with High Intensity Runway edge Lights (HIRL). Runway 6 approach has an Instrument Landing System (ILS) and a Medium Approach Lighting System-R (MALS-R). Runway 24 approach is equipped with both VASI (Visiual Approach Slope Indicator) and REIL (Runway End Indentification Lighting) systems. Runway 6-24 underwent complete overlay and grooving in 1987.

    Runway 1-19 is 7,000 feet long and 150 feet wide, equipped with HIRL. Both runways 1 and 19 are equipped with REILS systems. Runway 1 approach is equipped with a VASI system. Runway 19 approach has an ILS. Runway 1-19 was overlaid and grooved in the summer of 2000, and included the installation of centerline and touchdown zone lighting. Runway 1 is the preferred runway for noise abatement procedures.

    The A320's runway requirement at maximum takeofff weight is 6,857 feet, which doesn't give much room for error. Depending on the fuel load and takeoff weight, they "might" have made it in to Teterboro.
    ‎"The education of a firefighter and the continued education of a firefighter is what makes "real" firefighters. Continuous skill development is the core of progressive firefighting. We learn by doing and doing it again and again, both on the training ground and the fireground."
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  5. #25
    MembersZone Subscriber Dickey's Avatar
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    Gonz...are you a pilot??

    You sure sound like you know what you are talking about. When I worked at the local airport fire department, I traded lessons for fueling/washing/parking planes. In ground school, the instructor always taught me to be thinking of "if my engine quits right now, what would I do and where would I land?"

    What you said is totally the only thing that will determine where you put down. You gotta have lift, to get lift you gotta have speed, without engines, you decend to get speed. If you don't have any altitude to begin with, you are screwed.

    Hey, the co-pilot was from Wisconsin....small town just outside of Madison, WI

    GO BADGERS!!!
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  6. #26
    Forum Member nmfire's Avatar
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    There is also the matter of wind. You want to land with a headwind but without engines that headwind reduces the distance you glide. Landing with a tailwind will carry you further in your glide but will also make you landing roll much longer and faster.

    Picking an emergency landing site at a low altitude is something you do in a matter of seconds. There is no time for thinking long and hard. The basic idea is that if you aren't sure, that means no. He knew he wouldn't make LGA. He thought about TEB but decided it wasn't going to work. Next best place to land is somewhere soft, wide open, and without danger to civilians on the ground. In the NY Metro area, the only thing fitting that criteria is water.

    As I understand it, at least one engine was still running at idle which on an A320 can power all electrical and hydaulic systems. If they were both totally shut down, the APU on an A320 can also power all systems. This was critical to success because it allowed for a normal landing configuration with flaps extended and full instrumentation. With no engines and no APU, the ram air turbine only provides some limited hydraulic power and no electrical power. Basically you're crippled and on battery.
    Last edited by nmfire; 01-16-2009 at 07:12 PM.
    Even the burger-flippers at McDonald's probably have some McWackers.

  7. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by GeorgeWendtCFI View Post
    Teterboro has some short runways, too. Not really built for that aircraft. It is a miracle that this landing worked out the way it did.
    Most likely it could. The Devils and Nets both fly out of there. The Devils have used 737 in the past and this Airbus is about the same size. Morristown can handle a Boeing Business jet which is a 737.
    This space for rent

  8. #28
    Forum Member nmfire's Avatar
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    It definitely COULD. And in an emergency, you'd be surprised what CAN work. Its was a matter of making it there in the first place. Any doubt about making to a landing site makes it no-go in favor of somewhere you KNOW you can make.
    Even the burger-flippers at McDonald's probably have some McWackers.

  9. #29
    Back In Black ChiefKN's Avatar
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    This pilot and co-pilot did an oustanding job.

    I read today that he is also a licensed glider pilot. I imagine he never would have imagined landing a glider that big!

    I only wish there had been video of the plane actually making contact. I'd love to see exactly how it settled into the water.

    Also, some rumors that i'm not seeing in the papers, anyone confirm?

    Biggest one was that the force of the impact knocked tiles off the ceiling of the lincoln tunnel?? Could that possibly be true? I always thought the tunnels were drilled through rock?

    Oh, I also listened to the response on the scanner on both sides of the river.

    Kudos to the first responders on BOTH sides for a job well done.
    I am now a past chief and the views, opinions, and comments are mine and mine alone. I do not speak for any department or in any official capacity. Although, they would be smart to listen to me.

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  10. #30
    Forum Member nmfire's Avatar
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    I seriously doubt that would have knocked tiles off an underwater tunnel. If tiles fell down, its probably because its a piece of crap, not because of the plane Plus the "landing" would have been very gentle.

    Any pilot is well versed in handling their aircraft as a glider. Its part of initial training even in a little plane. Most though will never have the opportunity to actually do it. Look at the Gimli Glider and the Air Transat incident in the Azores. Bother were quite amazing acts of gliding. Both were fuel starvation issues.
    Last edited by nmfire; 01-16-2009 at 10:27 PM.
    Even the burger-flippers at McDonald's probably have some McWackers.

  11. #31
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    Gonz...are you a pilot??
    I'm a student pilot... 38 hours of flight time and ground school completed.
    ‎"The education of a firefighter and the continued education of a firefighter is what makes "real" firefighters. Continuous skill development is the core of progressive firefighting. We learn by doing and doing it again and again, both on the training ground and the fireground."
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  12. #32

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    Default video of airplane making contact in the hudson

    someone asked for video of the plane landing - this is a video of the impact, and the rescue... found it on this website, http://www.bergenlist.com/

    http://bergenlist.com/component/cont...e-landing.html

  13. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by CaptainGonzo View Post
    Another thing to consider.. without power, landing is a one shot deal.

    These are the runways at Teterboro..

    Runway's & Taxiways: The airport consists of a two-runway configuration: Runway 1-19 (North/South) is 7,000 feet long and Runway 6-24 (NE/SW) is 6,015 feet. The facility offers both visual non-precision and "all weather" precision landing capabilities. The airport is a 24-hour public use facility, although it adheres to a voluntary nightly curfew from 12:00 AM to 6:00 AM.

    Runway 6-24 is 6,015 feet long and 150 feet wide, equipped with High Intensity Runway edge Lights (HIRL). Runway 6 approach has an Instrument Landing System (ILS) and a Medium Approach Lighting System-R (MALS-R). Runway 24 approach is equipped with both VASI (Visiual Approach Slope Indicator) and REIL (Runway End Indentification Lighting) systems. Runway 6-24 underwent complete overlay and grooving in 1987.

    Runway 1-19 is 7,000 feet long and 150 feet wide, equipped with HIRL. Both runways 1 and 19 are equipped with REILS systems. Runway 1 approach is equipped with a VASI system. Runway 19 approach has an ILS. Runway 1-19 was overlaid and grooved in the summer of 2000, and included the installation of centerline and touchdown zone lighting. Runway 1 is the preferred runway for noise abatement procedures.

    The A320's runway requirement at maximum takeofff weight is 6,857 feet, which doesn't give much room for error. Depending on the fuel load and takeoff weight, they "might" have made it in to Teterboro.
    Take off weight. Let's see...full passenger load, winter time (extra luggage), 2 minutes out of LAG with no time to dump a presumably full fuel load...yeah, max runway length would have been needed.

    One shot deal is right. Then you had to assume that he hit the end of the correct runway and some power to the brakes. I guess you can't reverse a dead engine.

    Also, Teterboro is in as densely populated an area as you can get-especially Fri. PM at the beginning of a rush hour.

    I think any way you look at it. An attempted landing on the Hudson had a much higher chance of success than a landing at Teterboro.
    PROUD, HONORED AND HUMBLED RECIPIENT OF THE PURPLE HYDRANT AWARD - 10/2007.

  14. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by KyleWickman View Post
    Most likely it could. The Devils and Nets both fly out of there. The Devils have used 737 in the past and this Airbus is about the same size. Morristown can handle a Boeing Business jet which is a 737.
    But the Devils suck. That is the difference.

    Also, see my post above. They fly out out of there with a properly functioning aircraft.

    Also, I drive by there alot, I've never seen anything that big in there. Not saying it isn't true, I've just never seen it. Must freak people out seeing a 737 come in over Rt. 46.
    PROUD, HONORED AND HUMBLED RECIPIENT OF THE PURPLE HYDRANT AWARD - 10/2007.

  15. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by ChiefKN View Post
    This pilot and co-pilot did an oustanding job.

    I read today that he is also a licensed glider pilot. I imagine he never would have imagined landing a glider that big!

    I only wish there had been video of the plane actually making contact. I'd love to see exactly how it settled into the water.

    Also, some rumors that i'm not seeing in the papers, anyone confirm?

    Biggest one was that the force of the impact knocked tiles off the ceiling of the lincoln tunnel?? Could that possibly be true? I always thought the tunnels were drilled through rock?

    Oh, I also listened to the response on the scanner on both sides of the river.

    Kudos to the first responders on BOTH sides for a job well done.
    Ahhhh. rumors.

    Remember the Hercules explosion? There were two dead deer on Rt. 46 that were on multiple television stations reported as being killed in the blast. If you looked close, not only were they dead, but they were also decomped about two weeks. Amazing stuff that dynamite.

    If I remember my physics properly, once the plane hit the water, the shock wave would have spread out from the plane, not in a straight line but in all directions. This would have lessened the effect on the tunnel walls. Also, the plane didn't hit that hard (of course it hit hard but not THAT hard). It didn't even break the plane apart. Lastly, tiles fall off the Lincoln Tunnel every day for no reason other than lack of maintenance.

    I seriously doubt whether the rumors you are hearing are true.
    PROUD, HONORED AND HUMBLED RECIPIENT OF THE PURPLE HYDRANT AWARD - 10/2007.

  16. #36
    Forum Member nmfire's Avatar
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    As I understand it, at least one engine was still running at idle, unable to produce thrust. The A320 is designed such that a single engine at idle can provide full electrical generator, hydraulic, and bleed air to all systems. If both engines were shut down, the APU can also provide full power to all systems. So if they could have made TEB, they would have full flaps, full braking, and full ground spoilers. There would obviously be no thrust reversers but I believe they calculate landing distance without the reversers now a days. This is also for a normal landing. In an emergency, the pilot deviate from standard procedures as needed. He can stand on the brakes a lot harder. The brakes will probably catch fire by the time the plane stops but it will stop the plane much quicker. The big fancy trucks can put the brake fires out with ease and everyone goes home happy.

    Of course, all that is moot if you can't make it to the airport in the first place.
    Even the burger-flippers at McDonald's probably have some McWackers.

  17. #37
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    As this sort of thing does not happen every day,it was great to see how smoothly rescue operations had gone.
    It looked to me as they were climbing passengers directly onto the ferries.I was wondering why they didn't bring them up onto the police and USCG boats and then onto the ferries for transport.
    For one thing,the pilothouse on the ferries didn't look to give them a good view of what they were doing.
    From my towboat experience,I'd have put a deckhand with a radio or where I could see his hand signals in a spot to see the wing and people, and his only reason for existing until otherwise directed would be to signal me as to which way I needed to go to maintain contact with the plane's wing or to avoid mashing a plane passenger.He would not drop the radio to help a survivor up onto the boat if he realized a camera was on him.
    I've done a couple man overboard pick ups and they were both done from a grocery boat with little freeboard so we didn't have too far to heave him up onto our boat.
    Since everyone got out alive and the plane is in recovery now,that's a minor gripe.No rescue goes more perfectly than when everyone in danger is gotten away from it.
    I did see one shot of a FDNY fireboat pulling on a line to the plane when it popped.That must have stopped a couple hearts.
    Kudoes to all involved,especially the pilot that knew what he was doing and did it all correctly.
    That's why airline pilots get paid so well.They don't draw the big checks for walking around in snappy uniforms,they get paid to know what they are doing when the world goes to places we don't want.If there was a working man that deserves a bonus paycheck,this is one flight crew that makes that cut.

  18. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by nmfire View Post
    It definitely COULD. And in an emergency, you'd be surprised what CAN work. Its was a matter of making it there in the first place. Any doubt about making to a landing site makes it no-go in favor of somewhere you KNOW you can make.
    That's correct.It's better to know what the things that are available can do than to freeze because you didn't have the "proper"equipment to carry out the job.
    While improvising,adapting and overcoming,the pilot and everyone on board as well were probably saying their prayers fervently.
    Last edited by doughesson; 01-17-2009 at 12:34 PM.

  19. #39
    Back In Black ChiefKN's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GeorgeWendtCFI View Post
    But the Devils suck.
    I beg to differ!

    How would you like to measure this?

    Stanley Cups?
    I am now a past chief and the views, opinions, and comments are mine and mine alone. I do not speak for any department or in any official capacity. Although, they would be smart to listen to me.

    "The last thing I want to do is hurt you. But it's still on the list."

    "When tempted to fight fire with fire, remember that the Fire Department usually uses water."

  20. #40
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    Posted by nmfire
    Of course, all that is moot if you can't make it to the airport in the first place.
    Bing-freaking-oh!
    ‎"The education of a firefighter and the continued education of a firefighter is what makes "real" firefighters. Continuous skill development is the core of progressive firefighting. We learn by doing and doing it again and again, both on the training ground and the fireground."
    Lt. Ray McCormack, FDNY

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